So seems ping is the deciding factor in top-level ZvT? I.e., more ping favors Zergs?
Ping is the deciding factor in ZvT?
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CMS_Flash
Hong Kong45 Posts
So seems ping is the deciding factor in top-level ZvT? I.e., more ping favors Zergs? | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20729 Posts
I think the cross server era is unfortunate that less micro-intensive mech styles are almost non-existent in the current meta too. | ||
stilt
France2632 Posts
Furthermore, the low hp mele units like bane/zergling are problematics with latency as you can lose a bunch very easely for nothing => miss rally point, pulling back a run by or an engagement are more costly + widow mines force the players to split really fast. So no, it affects both, I guess it depends of how goes the game game but coming up with this excuse is pretty low. | ||
JJH777
United States4281 Posts
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AaBbCc
New Zealand110 Posts
For any non-mirror match-up; does cross server latency have any significant effect(s) or give any sort of micro edge (or other advantage) to one race or another? Or.. does the better player just always win on the day? I think given the punishing effects of slow reactions in certain situations and engagements in SC2 makes it worth thinking about? I think it would be interesting to see the data on this, especially with some kind of performance / aligulac ranking weighted adjustments (and large datasets). The online data would likely drown out the relatively small number of offline tournaments but perhaps if non-cross server online data points + offline were compared vs. the rest some stats genius could have a crack at it. There's also many potential confounders; such as tournament structure (GSL style vs. weekender, round robin vs. BoX single vs. double elimination etc.); relative player performance in the booth/on stage vs. at home; and relative latency for each player given their location to the server, internet speed; the effect of longer/late game matches vs. short games; etc. My basic assumptions in thinking about this would be that: 1) Micro potential / mechanical requirements are not equal between races 2) Mechanical reactions and micro are adversely affected by increasing latency 3) The relative effect(s) of a more or less equivalent ping increase for two players on different servers, are not always the same across every asymmetric match-up based on 1) and 2) I'm sure most often player skill + performance on any given day >> than any of this but I for one would be curious to see if this could potentially make a difference as a kind of relative effect as a purely academic / statistical exercise. Bias and intent disclosure: I'm a (shitty) terran and even shittier protoss player and also huge Maru fan. My hypothesis, which I acknowledge is likely a result of my personal bias is that the differences considered above would be greater for ZvT than PvT. For the record, I'm not pushing balance or the mechanical demands for one race are different from another, just that the effect of lag on certain mechanics (splitting/micro stuff mostly) disproportionately affect the various non-mirror matches. TLDR: Other things being even; does asymmetric race design become more asymmetric when both players face a similar amount of cross server lag? | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2169 Posts
Zerg is the a+click race. Their micro is very basic to compensate for their macro being hard. Terran units are middle of the road, but trough positioning and micro you can outplay your opponent. With more ping it's harder to micro, and because the race is more reliant on it to make the most out of it's units, it would make sense they are the most affected. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20729 Posts
On February 28 2021 06:45 AaBbCc wrote: Sorry took a long time to write my own post on this topic and hence didnt see this one. We're essentially talking about the same thing so mods feel free to delete my one but here was my post For any non-mirror match-up; does cross server latency have any significant effect(s) or give any sort of micro edge (or other advantage) to one race or another? Or.. does the better player just always win on the day? I think given the punishing effects of slow reactions in certain situations and engagements in SC2 makes it worth thinking about? I think it would be interesting to see the data on this, especially with some kind of performance / aligulac ranking weighted adjustments (and large datasets). The online data would likely drown out the relatively small number of offline tournaments but perhaps if non-cross server online data points + offline were compared vs. the rest some stats genius could have a crack at it. There's also many potential confounders; such as tournament structure (GSL style vs. weekender, round robin vs. BoX single vs. double elimination etc.); relative player performance in the booth/on stage vs. at home; and relative latency for each player given their location to the server, internet speed; the effect of longer/late game matches vs. short games; etc. My basic assumptions in thinking about this would be that: 1) Micro potential / mechanical requirements are not equal between races 2) Mechanical reactions and micro are adversely affected by increasing latency 3) The relative effect(s) of a more or less equivalent ping increase for two players on different servers, are not always the same across every asymmetric match-up based on 1) and 2) I'm sure most often player skill + performance on any given day >> than any of this but I for one would be curious to see if this could potentially make a difference as a kind of relative effect as a purely academic / statistical exercise. Bias and intent disclosure: I'm a (shitty) terran and even shittier protoss player and also huge Maru fan. My hypothesis, which I acknowledge is likely a result of my personal bias is that the differences considered above would be greater for ZvT than PvT. For the record, I'm not pushing balance or the mechanical demands for one race are different from another, just that the effect of lag on certain mechanics (splitting/micro stuff mostly) disproportionately affect the various non-mirror matches. TLDR: Other things being even; does asymmetric race design become more asymmetric when both players face a similar amount of cross server lag? Yeah it would be fascinating if we could crunch all these kind of numbers around some kind of sensible framework. It’ll also affect individual scenarios as well as overall game flow. For example in a back and forth TvZ like say, we saw with Clem vs Serral where it’s constant engagements, I imagine the ping advantage from Terran not quite being able to split and micro at their best every engage incrementally builds up and favours the Zerg when it’s a matchup of trading. On the other hand the singular (or multiple) moments in a match where a Zerg has to deal with a drilling claws mine drop and if they botch it can suffer a ton of damage, the ping definitely favours Terran in that scenario. Hell we even have other intangibles like players familiarity with playing cross server coming in. I’m not sure we can necessarily draw any conclusive finding other than playing on low ping > high ping for a competitive game at the highest level. | ||
Athenau
555 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On February 28 2021 05:01 CMS_Flash wrote: Seems so far in recent cross-server tournaments, Korean Terrans beat Korean Zergs, European Terran (i.e. Clem) beat European Zergs, but European Zergs beat Korean Terrans, and Korean Zergs beat European Terran. So seems ping is the deciding factor in top-level ZvT? I.e., more ping favors Zergs? [citation needed] on all the statistics. Peoples' feelings and gut instinct are worth jack shit without some numbers. And all the rationalizing about this unproven statistic is equally worthless until the premise is shown. My feeling is that the Korean terrans have done a fair bit of losing to Rogue, Dark, Solar and even Armani in these international events. Is that true? Who knows--you have to get some stats first before spitballing explanations. Actually I'm pretty sure this is bullshit given that the one European terran Clem has (in TvZ at least) done more losing to Europeans than Koreans. | ||
MinixTheNerd
200 Posts
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parksonsc
173 Posts
On February 28 2021 05:52 stilt wrote: Serral and Reynor lost quite a few zvt against korean lately (especially Reynor) which invalidates your point. Furthermore, the low hp mele units like bane/zergling are problematics with latency as you can lose a bunch very easely for nothing => miss rally point, pulling back a run by or an engagement are more costly + widow mines force the players to split really fast. So no, it affects both, I guess it depends of how goes the game game but coming up with this excuse is pretty low. You play Zerg, i guess? | ||
stilt
France2632 Posts
And by being so entitled that you don't bring counter argument other than ad hominem attack I will guess you're a salty terran fanboy ? | ||
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