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On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote: Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧,第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜,当然所有人都和我这么说,我也觉得他很菜,然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢,但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿,我就封了他得气,一旦封了他拿什么打我低保?可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的,因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的,所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的,因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束,然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了,当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误,但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了,因为我家里已经挡不住了,他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我,太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." |
On March 14 2019 09:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote: If it was just that he lost the game deliberately, no-one would had cared.
Unfortunately, it seemed that somebody decided to bet that he would lose on just that specific match, and at unusually large amount of money at that.
Quite the strange coincidence that. Well, it is just a SC2 game, not a football game. So a shift from 1.34 to 2.06 may only take a couple of hundred dollars I guess. Probably not an unusually large amount of money.
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On March 14 2019 08:42 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 14 2019 08:07 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:05 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 07:43 pvsnp wrote:
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation. It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions? You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation. You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit. This guy gave a good example: On March 14 2019 08:03 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep. Yo I got one of my own. A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence. Damn stories are fun That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese. Show me the chat logs, show me the money moved, show me the smoking gun. That's evidence. That's how an actual legal system functions. Vigilante convictions over suspicious behavior with hypothetical motives and possible reasons are exactly why laws and courts were created in the first place. Thankfully. Do you realize that if we always required "smoking gun" evidence instead of beyond a reasonable doubt proof then a HUGE amount of crimes would never get punished, right? You seem to live in this fairy tale land that has a perfect justice system that just now and then lets a criminal slip by, haha, such naivety. Senator: "How do you sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service?" Zuckerberg: "Senator, we run ads." Senator: "Yes, but how do you make money?" I bet the people wanting hard evidence are too dense to understand what was presented and explained about betting in the OP, just like the US Senate was too tech illiterate to discuss anything with Zuckerberg.
Do you realize that guilty people go free every day because it's far less important to punish the guilty than it is to protect the innocent?
"It is better 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer."
- Benjamin Franklin
Such irony to hear you talking of fairylands. You think only the guilty ever get punished? How naive. Why do you think laws have presumption of innocence? Just to make you angry on internet forums?
On March 14 2019 08:34 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 14 2019 08:07 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:05 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 07:43 pvsnp wrote:
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation. It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions? You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation. You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit. This guy gave a good example: On March 14 2019 08:03 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep. Yo I got one of my own. A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence. Damn stories are fun That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese. Show me the chat logs, show me the money moved, show me the smoking gun. That's evidence. That's how an actual legal system functions. Vigilante convictions over suspicious behavior with hypothetical motives and possible reasons are exactly why laws and courts were created in the first place. Thankfully. Changing betting lines are LITERALLY money moved that's the algorhythm for changing betting lines. If you bet enough, the betting lines will change to the degree that 4000mmr player will appear like he has 50%+ chance to win a map of off a 6000MMR player Stop writing silly things. Hypothetical motives? Hypothetical motive is something that doesn't make sense, but you're trying to find a scenario in which it does make sense. Nothing about making money is a 'hypothetical motive'.
Of course money got moved. Suspicious betting is suspicious, but it is not immediate proof that Macsed fixed a game for profit. The question is whether the money moved into Macsed's account as a result of matchfixing.
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On March 14 2019 08:15 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 14 2019 08:07 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:05 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 07:43 pvsnp wrote:
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation. It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions? You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation. You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit. This guy gave a good example: On March 14 2019 08:03 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep. Yo I got one of my own. A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence. Damn stories are fun That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese. Show me the chat logs, show me the money moved, show me the smoking gun. That's evidence. That's how an actual legal system functions. Vigilante convictions over suspicious behavior with hypothetical motives and possible reasons are exactly why laws and courts were created in the first place. Thankfully. In the U.S., convictions based on circumstantial evidence happen all the time. In some instances, circumstantial evidence is better than certain types of direct evidence as it is significantly less fallible. (e.g. cell phone records placing someone in an area can be better than eye witness testimony)
If someone can be convicted of murder based solely upon circumstantial evidence, someone can and should be banned from an esport based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. If the betting pattern described is accurate, MacSed needs to be banned because there is no other reasonable explanation for what happened.
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On March 14 2019 09:07 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:14 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 07:59 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 07:32 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 07:18 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 07:06 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 06:14 pvsnp wrote: You know why Life got busted? Because prosecutors followed the money and discovered that he was paid for what he did. Boom, there's your permaban, your court sentence, your career and legacy disgraced.
Losing isn't a crime. Being an idiot isn't a crime. Playing hungover isn't a crime. And TL is not a court of law. The movement of betting lines is a far more solid source of suspicion than anything Macsed did in-game. And yes, I agree that it looks suspicious. Suspicion != proof.
The truth will not be found by poring over replays and flaming people online. A proper investigation deals in facts, not hysteria, and is conducted by professionals, not forum vigilantes. Macsed is already under scrutiny, so the only thing we as fans need to do is wait for the answers.
Maybe he's guilty, maybe he's innocent. Jumping to either of those conclusions based on the limited and circumstantial evidence available, is simply idiotic (and incidentally, a great example of why legal systems, standards of proof, and courts of law exist in the first place). You are naive, you believe there will always be a money trail to follow. There are ways to circumvent that, what has gotten people convicted is when the actual people behind the matchfixing gets caught. The chat history and stuff like that. If you are careful there are ways to make all of that evidence pretty much impossible to find. So here we are, with obvious matchfixers and a problem in our sport but we can't prove anything. We don't even know is chinese police is even looking into it but even if they did chances are it wouldn't be traceable. So we have a few choices, accept the matchfixing "because we cant really prove it", tell everyone their innocent unless convicted and we will end up with all of us "knowing" matchfixing is rampant but that nothing is being done to stop it. I mean come on even you posters who dont want to clearly say that he is guilty thinks he is guilty. Its just obvious. Lets say we see the same thing happen every 5th or so game in the future, what to do. They are matchfixing but we cant "prove" it, we will lose interest in the tournaments, we will slowly but surely stop following as closely as we were and the scene will slowly "die". Our other choice is to hope organizers take this seriously and that we do to, this is matchfixing and we should absolutely not accept it. It would be the nothing but bad for the scene we all love. When was the last time a "known" matchfixer, which is to say somebody forum vigilantes wanted to crucify, was allowed to go free? Because MKP was years ago, and if one internet-convicted "guilty" guy going free every few years is the cost of protecting innocents, I think that's a pretty good trade. I'm not seeing this catastrophe that you claim will happen if we don't lynch Macsed. First thing, I'm not saying anyone should lynch Macsed, do you know what that word even means? I'm saying he matchfixed and our reaction should not be "so what we can't prove it and as long as we can't prove it its fine". You have a very interesting take on this, so you believe we should regard Macsed as innocent because it was a long time ago since someone matchfixed this blatantly? So it matters how often it happens if we should react or not? If this happens again in the playoffs of WESG should X players also be free to go because its not many enough for you to take it seriously? How about if it happens at GSL best of 16 next? Is that were we draw the line and even though we let Macsed go and player X we will judge players Y harder because its becoming more common? Doesn't sound very consistent to me, I believe everyone should get the same judgement, they will from me anyway. If its equally blatant of course, which it is here. This might be the first time in years or it is only the tip of the iceberg either way we can't know and should therefore take it seriously. I don't really see the catastrophe I myself painted but it is a slippery slope, free one and you might as well free them all. Especially when it is this incredibly obvious, we might look back at this as the start of something really really bad just like the first game with San vs Dark all those years ago. I really hope that wont happen but I don't want to look back and think if only we as a community had reacted instead of sweeping it under the rug, this is something that effects the scene to a very high degree. Presumption of innocence is one of the key principles of many legal systems, and naturally should not be compromised. However, there are cases and extenuating circumstances under which key legal principles can be suspended. To use habeas corpus in the US as an example, it's a right of every person to know why they are legally detained. However, this principle can and has been suspended as per the Constitution "when in rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it." (U.S. CONST. art. I, § 9, cl. 2.) I believe we should regard Macsed as innocent until he's proven guilty, since as far as I know, there is no impending catastrophe that would justify revoking his right to that presumption. Erm what are you even talking about, the legal system should not be compromised? First you think I want Macsed lynched (killed?) and now you presume I want him what? Sent to jail, fined? There is no law that says that organisations like IEM, WESG or for that matter Blizzard themselves are not allowed to ban players without a decision in a court of law. What nonsense are you talking about? Private companies are allowed to do as they will, if I go to my local grocery store and disturb the order they are allowed to throw me out and prevent me from entering their store again. They don't need me to have done something unlawful or get a decision from a judge. That is not how reality works. He matchfixed, there is enough proof to make put it beyond reasonable doubt. Its up the community and event organizers if they will allow him in their tournament. It doesn't really matter what you or me thinks what matters is what the people in charge thinks and how they think it will reflect on their events if they allow him. IIRC, matchfixing is illegal in China as well as Korea (which is why Life went to actual court and spent time in actual jail), due to the inherent connections with illegal gambling. So Macsed could potentially be looking at legal action, and that's why I was talking about the legal context. But if you want to shift the subject to corporate action like Blizzard and Alibaba, then you might want to think twice about opening that can of worms. As you said, corporations are free to act independently of the relevant legal considerations. What would you say if Blizzard decided that they were making too much money from China and it wasn't worth pursuing this case due to potential lost revenue? Its not a can of worms =P Its what we got as a community, I would be fine with that decision from Blizzard. A bit disappointing but if that is their stance its understandable.
Macsed should still be banned from GSL, IEM, WESG and all the online cups. Sure if Blizzards doesn't want to make a move he can participate in wcs but that doesn't stop other organizations from taking a stronger stance.
The proof is there, but how sloppy has Macsed been, if he's clever there will be no chatlogs or money trails to him and in that case there is a low chance of him actually getting jail or fines. There are a lot of ways to make sure there are no "hard" evidence as you would say and that doesn't mean he isn't guilty beyond reasonable doubt.
Edit: Money in bank account lol, what if he had that money transfered to his/sister/whatever and they took it out in cash and gave to him. Its untraceable, he can matchfix forever, however obvious and he will be free forever.
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On March 14 2019 09:08 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote: You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Betting line changed significantly. There's your evidence of money pouring on a bet for an unlikely outcome. Soon after, this outcome comes to fruition in a ridiculous game. EDIT: In situations like this, players should be autobanned from tournaments for a few years at least. No extra investigation, simply ban the favorite who lost if the betting line changed drastically. 1/1000 times you may ban the unlucky innocent person, but it will clean the scene of matchfixing effectively.
That's hard evidence that someone(s) bet a large sum of money on Macsed to go 2-1. That is in no way hard evidence that Macsed has any relation to it.
On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
YOU can believe he did it all you want. I can believe he did it all I want. A tournament can't fucking ban him because uppity forum posters believe he match fixed. End of fucking story. No hard evidence no ban, regardless of what you or I think
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On March 14 2019 09:21 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:08 niteReloaded wrote:On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote: You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Betting line changed significantly. There's your evidence of money pouring on a bet for an unlikely outcome. Soon after, this outcome comes to fruition in a ridiculous game. EDIT: In situations like this, players should be autobanned from tournaments for a few years at least. No extra investigation, simply ban the favorite who lost if the betting line changed drastically. 1/1000 times you may ban the unlucky innocent person, but it will clean the scene of matchfixing effectively. That's hard evidence that someone(s) bet a large sum of money on Macsed to go 2-1. That is in no way hard evidence that Macsed has any relation to it. Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
YOU can believe he did it all you want. I can believe he did it all I want. A tournament can't fucking ban him because uppity forum posters believe he match fixed. End of fucking story. No hard evidence no ban, regardless of what you or I think Tournaments and Blizzard can do whatever they want.
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On March 14 2019 09:14 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:42 IshinShishi wrote:On March 14 2019 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 14 2019 08:07 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:05 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 07:43 pvsnp wrote:
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation. It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions? You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation. You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit. This guy gave a good example: On March 14 2019 08:03 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep. Yo I got one of my own. A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence. Damn stories are fun That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese. Show me the chat logs, show me the money moved, show me the smoking gun. That's evidence. That's how an actual legal system functions. Vigilante convictions over suspicious behavior with hypothetical motives and possible reasons are exactly why laws and courts were created in the first place. Thankfully. Do you realize that if we always required "smoking gun" evidence instead of beyond a reasonable doubt proof then a HUGE amount of crimes would never get punished, right? You seem to live in this fairy tale land that has a perfect justice system that just now and then lets a criminal slip by, haha, such naivety. Senator: "How do you sustain a business model in which users don't pay for your service?" Zuckerberg: "Senator, we run ads." Senator: "Yes, but how do you make money?" I bet the people wanting hard evidence are too dense to understand what was presented and explained about betting in the OP, just like the US Senate was too tech illiterate to discuss anything with Zuckerberg. Do you realize that guilty people go free every day because it's far less important to punish the guilty than it is to protect the innocent? "It is better 100 guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer." - Benjamin Franklin Such irony to hear you talking of fairylands. You think only the guilty ever get punished? How naive. Why do you think laws have presumption of innocence? Just to make you angry on internet forums? Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:34 niteReloaded wrote:On March 14 2019 08:15 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 14 2019 08:07 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 08:05 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 07:43 pvsnp wrote:
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation. It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions? You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation. You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit. This guy gave a good example: On March 14 2019 08:03 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep. Yo I got one of my own. A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence. Damn stories are fun That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese. Show me the chat logs, show me the money moved, show me the smoking gun. That's evidence. That's how an actual legal system functions. Vigilante convictions over suspicious behavior with hypothetical motives and possible reasons are exactly why laws and courts were created in the first place. Thankfully. Changing betting lines are LITERALLY money moved that's the algorhythm for changing betting lines. If you bet enough, the betting lines will change to the degree that 4000mmr player will appear like he has 50%+ chance to win a map of off a 6000MMR player Stop writing silly things. Hypothetical motives? Hypothetical motive is something that doesn't make sense, but you're trying to find a scenario in which it does make sense. Nothing about making money is a 'hypothetical motive'. Of course money got moved. Suspicious betting is suspicious, but it is not immediate proof that Macsed fixed a game for profit. The question is whether the money moved into Macsed's account as a result of matchfixing. Yep, and for common sense it's enough proof. Money moving illogically, illogical game happening afterwords. The only logic is that those 2 illogical things are about the same starcraft match.
For you, who seems to live in a world of concepts, it's not enough.
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On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know
In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already.
Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above.
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On March 14 2019 09:28 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already. Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above. How do you know what amount he may have won? Maybe it's about a few thousand €.
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On March 14 2019 09:28 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already. Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above. Martha freaking Stewart committed insider trading to save $50k at a time when she was worth approximately $1 billion. People commit crimes all the time when they have money because you can never have too much money.
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On March 14 2019 09:32 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:28 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already. Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above. Martha freaking Stewart committed insider trading to save $50k at a time when she was worth approximately $1 billion. People commit crimes all the time when they have money because you can never have too much money.
$50K is a large amount no matter how much you have.
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On March 14 2019 09:28 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already. Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above. All of the reasons you give above does not explain how someone knew that Macsed was going to lose before their games and bet a lot of money on it. It has be matchfixed there is no other credible explanation, seeing as how he plays to lose on purpose only makes it even more sure that he matchfixed.
Is he so bad he doesn't know how to wall against proxy gate zealot, I mean come on even gold levels can do that. Saying he is "rusty" is not enough, he had to have had an ongoing seizure or something for a GM level to get turned into that husk of a pro player.
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On March 14 2019 09:38 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 14 2019 09:28 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already. Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above. Martha freaking Stewart committed insider trading to save $50k at a time when she was worth approximately $1 billion. People commit crimes all the time when they have money because you can never have too much money. $50K is a large amount no matter how much you have. It was .00005% of her net worth. That's not worth committing a felony over. I'm pretty sure whatever MacSed was paid is a much higher percentage of his net worth.
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On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent.
I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved.
Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that.
If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough.
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If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie.
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On March 14 2019 09:51 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent. I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved. Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that. If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough.
Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players
On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie.
Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing
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On March 14 2019 10:08 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:51 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent. I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved. Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that. If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough. Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie. Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing Crazy how the criminal justice system can convict based solely on circumstantial evidence but esports has to have a much higher standard.
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On March 14 2019 09:49 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:38 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:On March 14 2019 09:32 Boggyb wrote:On March 14 2019 09:28 DirtyHarry2016 wrote:On March 14 2019 09:05 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 14 2019 08:48 DirtyHarry2016 wrote: WTF
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding. If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best? So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already. Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above. Martha freaking Stewart committed insider trading to save $50k at a time when she was worth approximately $1 billion. People commit crimes all the time when they have money because you can never have too much money. $50K is a large amount no matter how much you have. It was .00005% of her net worth. That's not worth committing a felony over. I'm pretty sure whatever MacSed was paid is a much higher percentage of his net worth. It is not a lot of money, man. So nobody here knows how much money was needed for a odds shift from 1.3 to 2, in a such unimportant SC2 game? U can make a wild guess, but my money will not be on a few thousand. So how much did u earn every month? 5K? Are u going to take the risk of ending ur career for 1K of profit? Stewart is an idiot. Are u? Is everyone else, like MacSed, an idiot? Do u know how much money "Life" earned for match fixing?
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On March 14 2019 10:12 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 10:08 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 09:51 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent. I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved. Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that. If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough. Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie. Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing Crazy how the criminal justice system can convict based solely on circumstantial evidence but esports has to have a much higher standard. U are too naive to the criminal justice. LOL
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On March 14 2019 10:08 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 09:51 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent. I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved. Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that. If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough. Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie. Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing
Hard evidence: something that can be proven. All these things I mentioned can be proven. These are pieces of hard evidence.
Seems like what you're actually looking for is hard proof of matchfixing like I said which is something pretty unrealistic like a picture of Macsed's transaction with a matchfixing agent.
So once again, your way sucks. The vast majority of the time you aren't going to get your hard, perfectly conclusive proof of matchfixing even when the person is truly guilty.
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