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On February 15 2019 06:00 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2019 05:45 Cele wrote:On February 15 2019 05:34 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2019 05:00 Cele wrote: oh here we go. It's my absolute favorite part of the drama when we start arguing about who did more when and how for the BW scene. Lets compare dick sizes, shall we? Unless I'm wildly mistaken, there is no argument to be had considering that a quick search reveals that abuse has contributed basically nothing of note (no threads started by him, no Liquipedia contributions) and Schamtoo runs, funds, and casts HAY, so the assertion that Schamtoo "doesn't care" about BW is absolutely preposterous, especially coming from abuse. I will admit that I may be mistaken; perhaps he is active on Defiler under a different name or something. If that's the case, I apologize; I am simply operating based on what I see and know. In the context of TL and English-speaking BW community, I like to think I am familiar with the movers and shakers. In short, this was not a conversation of "who did more for BW," it's a conversation of "this person clearly did way more for BW than you did, so don't disrespect them by saying they don't care about BW." Or am I misunderstanding you, and this was an open challenge for dick measuring? Have you not mentioned ICCup in the last few posts and need to remind everyone of your participation, so this is your outlet? nono don't bait me about ICCup. I very much do not enjoy the dick measuring and will not partake in it. I simply stated i strongly dislike this argument, because it is enitirely fruitless. Second, i share your sentiment, that abuse expressed himself in a provocative and demeaning way and i don't share that. To discuss: "who contributed more to the game" is enitirely fruitless because a) it's highly subjective. You, me or many others who can with good reason claim to know the who-is-who of TL content producers, tournament organizers and so on will still come to different conclusions on who "did the most" or is "most deserving". It depends on what appeals to you, you you are friendly with and which contribution you can measure the best, because you know the work that went into it. b) we are trying to have a conversation that is based on solid arguments, i think? Well, even people who contribute very little can have the right ideas. It's just wrong to shut somebody up, because someone else did more for the game (or because his buddies claim so.) In conclusion: i argue to have a argument based discussion and leave the dick size comparisons out. And i responded to your post only in that regard. As regards to content, i don't share the views expressed by abuse. a) It's not highly subjective when one person did nothing and the other person did a lot. b) This conversation is mostly about opinion. Some people believe x, others y, there are no real facts that can determine x or y to be absolutely true and the other absolutely false. Thus, when someone says something along the lines of "your opinion doesn't matter" and qualifies it with "you're new to BW" and "you don't care about BW," I don't see how you could characterize ANY of that as "solid argument," especially considering that none of it is true. In conclusion: The only reason I "brought up" "who did more for BW" is to point out that abuse's disrespectful approach to Schamtoo is absurd. It only became a blown out of proportion issue when you made it seem like this is what the thread is going to be about. You saw what you wanted to see and ignored the rest - even professing to not agree with abuse or his handling of the issue. Why not just say that instead of stoking the flames?
And why didn't you simply say that he acted disrespectful and demeaning without trying to make an argument about Schamtoo contributing more? Because that's it boils down to and i agree with that btw.
Imaginary argument: if somebody, who let's say contributed more to the community would have said exactly the same thing, would you feel different about it? I hope not, because unfair is unfair, whoever is being unfair. If you would feel different: why? And if you don't, we reach my point here: that contribution has nothing to do it in the first place, it is what was said that you find upsetting and is not connected to the "social status in the foreign broodwar scene".
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now i know why the twitter initiative never gained any traction..
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i now propose we turn this threads toward light-hearted jokes and tomfoolery, let me illustrate
who did the blizzard developer listen to for solid arguments? + Show Spoiler +
what went wrong when the blizzard developer polled the twitter audience? + Show Spoiler +he forgot to upgrade scout sight range!!!
how did the TLers feel when the blizzard develop forgot them? + Show Spoiler +like a reaver with no scarabs and no shuttle, lost in the middle of the lost temple!!!
On February 15 2019 06:23 TT1 wrote: now i know why the twitter initiative never gained any traction.. LOLOL
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On February 15 2019 06:22 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2019 06:00 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2019 05:45 Cele wrote:On February 15 2019 05:34 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2019 05:00 Cele wrote: oh here we go. It's my absolute favorite part of the drama when we start arguing about who did more when and how for the BW scene. Lets compare dick sizes, shall we? Unless I'm wildly mistaken, there is no argument to be had considering that a quick search reveals that abuse has contributed basically nothing of note (no threads started by him, no Liquipedia contributions) and Schamtoo runs, funds, and casts HAY, so the assertion that Schamtoo "doesn't care" about BW is absolutely preposterous, especially coming from abuse. I will admit that I may be mistaken; perhaps he is active on Defiler under a different name or something. If that's the case, I apologize; I am simply operating based on what I see and know. In the context of TL and English-speaking BW community, I like to think I am familiar with the movers and shakers. In short, this was not a conversation of "who did more for BW," it's a conversation of "this person clearly did way more for BW than you did, so don't disrespect them by saying they don't care about BW." Or am I misunderstanding you, and this was an open challenge for dick measuring? Have you not mentioned ICCup in the last few posts and need to remind everyone of your participation, so this is your outlet? nono don't bait me about ICCup. I very much do not enjoy the dick measuring and will not partake in it. I simply stated i strongly dislike this argument, because it is enitirely fruitless. Second, i share your sentiment, that abuse expressed himself in a provocative and demeaning way and i don't share that. To discuss: "who contributed more to the game" is enitirely fruitless because a) it's highly subjective. You, me or many others who can with good reason claim to know the who-is-who of TL content producers, tournament organizers and so on will still come to different conclusions on who "did the most" or is "most deserving". It depends on what appeals to you, you you are friendly with and which contribution you can measure the best, because you know the work that went into it. b) we are trying to have a conversation that is based on solid arguments, i think? Well, even people who contribute very little can have the right ideas. It's just wrong to shut somebody up, because someone else did more for the game (or because his buddies claim so.) In conclusion: i argue to have a argument based discussion and leave the dick size comparisons out. And i responded to your post only in that regard. As regards to content, i don't share the views expressed by abuse. a) It's not highly subjective when one person did nothing and the other person did a lot. b) This conversation is mostly about opinion. Some people believe x, others y, there are no real facts that can determine x or y to be absolutely true and the other absolutely false. Thus, when someone says something along the lines of "your opinion doesn't matter" and qualifies it with "you're new to BW" and "you don't care about BW," I don't see how you could characterize ANY of that as "solid argument," especially considering that none of it is true. In conclusion: The only reason I "brought up" "who did more for BW" is to point out that abuse's disrespectful approach to Schamtoo is absurd. It only became a blown out of proportion issue when you made it seem like this is what the thread is going to be about. You saw what you wanted to see and ignored the rest - even professing to not agree with abuse or his handling of the issue. Why not just say that instead of stoking the flames? And why didn't you simply say that he acted disrespectful and demeaning without trying to make an argument about Schamtoo contributing more? Because that's it boils down to and i agree with that btw. Imaginary argument: if somebody, who let's say contributed more to the community would have said exactly the same thing, would you feel different about it? I hope not, because unfair is unfair, whoever is being unfair. If you would feel different: why? And if you don't, we reach my point here: that contribution has nothing to do it in the first place, it is what was said that you find upsetting and is not connected to the "social status in the foreign broodwar scene". Because the fact that Schamtoo did more for the community is exactly why that statement was so absurdly disrespectful and demeaning. If it was abuse telling abuse2.0 that he doesn't care about BW because he also did jackshit for the community, I wouldn't really have a firm foundation upon which to say "that's not true" and have a wealth of information to provide as to WHY that is not true.
If someone who contributed more to the community (I'm guessing more than abuse, based on context) said the same things, I'd question their judgement in a similar way. Instead of saying "he did more than you" or "he did a lot," I would list the actual things he has done and contributed, much like I did in response to you. I would only give them the benefit of the doubt because perhaps they did a lot many years ago but have been inactive and haven't followed the scene, so aren't aware of everything Schamtoo has done over the past few years. This is because I would respect them more than I respect a person who hasn't done diddly squat. However, I would still consider it disrespectful and demeaning and would point that out as well. I wouldn't try to compare their contributions to Schamtoos, because as I believe you are inferring, that is comparing apples and oranges or "measuring dick sizes." This is NOT relevant to the case at hand. I've already explained why, but perhaps an analogy would make it clearer.
If it was someone like... You... who came in here and said "Schamtoo's opinion doesn't matter, he doesn't care about BW, he's a Korean apologist," and I tried to retort with comparing your contributions to Schamtoo's, it would be comparing apples and oranges. I may personally feel that one person did more than another, but that's not relevant. However, in this case, it is abuse who is coming in here and saying those things, and in my retort I can freely compare his contributions to Schamtoo's, because that's like comparing apples and empty space. Regardless of how one feels about the contributions, some contribution is more than no contribution. Thus, these are not analogous situations, and you've successfully derailed this whole conversation to be about placating your personal sensitivity to dick measuring contests.
Beyond all this, I find it hard to believe that ANYONE who cares enough to contribute to this community would come into this thread and assert that Schamtoo doesn't care and his opinion doesn't matter. But I guess your imaginary scenario assumes such a paradoxical charitable prick exists so whatever.
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stop with the meltdowns and have some fun
what did the blizz dev say in the TLers dream?? + Show Spoiler + Reportin' for duty. Orders, cap'n? Orders received. I read you. SCV good to go, sir. what did the blizz dev say in reality???? + Show Spoiler +I can't build it. Something's in the way. I'm not readin' you clearly. You ain't from around here, are you? I can't believe they put me in one of these things! And now I gotta put up with this too?
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Jealous, honestly you can just fuck right off. I could write a fucking book about why HAY is a shitty tournament run by a person who has never cared about what the community has actually said about it, and has always run it "his way" not the way the community would have liked, threatening again again that he would leave and "take his money with him" from the very start of it, if anyone disagreed with him.
I don't care if he has done more than me for the scene in his own screwed way, it doesn't give him "jesus status" to say shit in the unbelievably condescending way he has been doing every single time I see a post from him. And yes, he is new to the scene. "being here since Remastered" is a preposterous metric to try to prove me wrong on this.
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All of this cuz some guy can't stand pressing 1 button to save a replay.
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On February 15 2019 16:36 abuse wrote: Jealous, honestly you can just fuck right off. I could write a fucking book-- No one would read it.
Or at least I wouldn't, because I don't care about the opinion of someone who contributes nothing, consumes content created through someone else's hard work and money, and then questions the manner in which it is created.
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I don't consume his content and am free to question whatever I want, which you seem to not understand for some reason.
I would question where the helping for the BW scene ends, by running tournaments, if a person keeps using his /influence/ to promote views that actively hurt the bw playing population. There's plenty of people who have shown dissatisfaction with the way HAY is run, and with his views on many issues, but honestly this is not what I'm here to discuss, so fuck that.
What I see is a person who would in many cases, many arguments fling his "I'll just leave if you disagree with me" to not allow himself to be criticized. If you use the influence you have gained, and have people like you defending him, even when he spouts bullshit like he does in this thread, then I wonder if the scene is being helped or the opposite.
If I hosted some tournaments, by putting 500 USD into each of them, under my conditions not caring about what the players(who are the community) want, would that make me some super important BW person who is above criticism, and it will have people like you blindly defending my stupid views on all matters concerning the game? fuck off.
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Post a poll on twitter you both and stop this madness. Make a separate thread and let the words float from your fingers.
We are here to bash what is left from Blizzard because they throw at us lies for over an year and some people around here pretend they do good job.
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United Kingdom12011 Posts
I'm going to re-word this, but I feel that if Grant and Matt want to use Twitter to communicate with us then we should accomodate. All other eSports even SC2 (which long gave up using Teamliquid as the hub, they use reddit now) AND WarCraft 3 use twitter as the main way to share content alongside reddit. Why were we not doing the same? That is where the eyes are in the foreign scene.
Unless someone knows Teamliquid used to be a BW community, nobody who isn't already here is ever going to come to TL to find out about tournaments. People don't even know they exist. That's why moving to places like Twitter to share content is a good thing for the scene. The more people that share, the more eyes you have on it. Facebook groups too as Grast says is another avenue, but we shouldn't just use one, we should use all.
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On February 15 2019 21:29 Qikz wrote: I'm going to re-word this, but I feel that if Grant and Matt want to use Twitter to communicate with us then we should accomodate. All other eSports even SC2 (which long gave up using Teamliquid as the hub, they use reddit now) AND WarCraft 3 use twitter as the main way to share content alongside reddit. Why were we not doing the same? That is where the eyes are in the foreign scene.
Unless someone knows Teamliquid used to be a BW community, nobody who isn't already here is ever going to come to TL to find out about tournaments. People don't even know they exist. That's why moving to places like Twitter to share content is a good thing for the scene. The more people that share, the more eyes you have on it. Facebook groups too as Grast says is another avenue, but we shouldn't just use one, we should use all.
That's a thing that makes a lot of sense. Twitter can widen a community and through it as a social platform we can reach more people than we are around here.
Just that my POV differs a bit. Mostly because Blizzard's effort towards the starcraft player base are sporadic and their community management approach is often questionable. Why should we follow if we can lead?
I'm a firm community believer and I think we have great common space here in teamliquid. What we should do is not to centralize our efforts around a sea of information but to share the content AND there, to make an effort to outreach and attract like minded people. - Twitter is great medium as a complimentary place to share information but it's not so good as a place to build and serve to a community. For quick interaction or broadcasting - yes, only for that.
Our community has so much more history than almost anything alive on the internet today. If we don't appreciate what we have we can easily lose it. - Remember PGTour? - we didn't really appreciate what was done for us and after it's closure the dark ages for starcraft came. There was no real competitive ladder. WGTour was dead, PGTour was dead, the abyss was a mediocre place to hang, bnet was populated mostly by maphackers, we were using hamachi rooms to get decent opponents - real pain in the ass... and again this was possible only because we had few places where most of the players we hanging (primarily gg.net and tl.net)
Our community was built not on Blizzard's efforts but on our own. Many known and unknown people dedicated thousands of work hours not for their stakeholders but for their passion and believes - StarCraft!
Today we survive because there are such people as Qikz (and others but he is the poster before me <3). Not because Blizzard are doing a thing.
We can help by posting tweets and broadcasting about how passionate we are about StarCraft. But we must use the tools we have in order to survive and continue to excite the people that are coming after us. Sharing a link to the page of a given tournament will do the job but please don't think that twitter can be home for our community. - Tweets come and go. Hashtags change their meaning. History cannot be preserved - not in well ordered and accessible way - critical for every community.
In my professional career I've seen so many projects falling apart just because someone forgot from where they started, lost connection with the roots and just moved to the new place = instant fail. In order to do things properly we need to maintain what we got and use the new tools to an extend where they help us attract new talent. We gotta show them the path to the places our community hangs and has history behind. - If not we'll last no longer than the live of a tweet - less than 30 minutes.
Said that - twitter is as good as any other medium, the difference is there that if we want to be seen we need to be more vocal than other places and we need to stick together.
In the end - having a poll on Twitter and taking the results into account, instead of trying to reach the already working community where the core of your player base is located is a recipe for disaster.
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On February 15 2019 22:42 BlueStar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2019 21:29 Qikz wrote: I'm going to re-word this, but I feel that if Grant and Matt want to use Twitter to communicate with us then we should accomodate. All other eSports even SC2 (which long gave up using Teamliquid as the hub, they use reddit now) AND WarCraft 3 use twitter as the main way to share content alongside reddit. Why were we not doing the same? That is where the eyes are in the foreign scene.
Unless someone knows Teamliquid used to be a BW community, nobody who isn't already here is ever going to come to TL to find out about tournaments. People don't even know they exist. That's why moving to places like Twitter to share content is a good thing for the scene. The more people that share, the more eyes you have on it. Facebook groups too as Grast says is another avenue, but we shouldn't just use one, we should use all. That's a thing that makes a lot of sense. Twitter can widen a community and through it as a social platform we can reach more people than we are around here. Just that my POV differs a bit. Mostly because Blizzard's effort towards the starcraft player base are sporadic and their community management approach is often questionable. Why should we follow if we can lead? I'm a firm community believer and I think we have great common space here in teamliquid. What we should do is not to centralize our efforts around a sea of information but to share the content AND there, to make an effort to outreach and attract like minded people. - Twitter is great medium as a complimentary place to share information but it's not so good as a place to build and serve to a community. For quick interaction or broadcasting - yes, only for that. Our community has so much more history than almost anything alive on the internet today. If we don't appreciate what we have we can easily lose it. - Remember PGTour? - we didn't really appreciate what was done for us and after it's closure the dark ages for starcraft came. There was no real competitive ladder. WGTour was dead, PGTour was dead, the abyss was a mediocre place to hang, bnet was populated mostly by maphackers, we were using hamachi rooms to get decent opponents - real pain in the ass... and again this was possible only because we had few places where most of the players we hanging (primarily gg.net and tl.net) Our community was built not on Blizzard's efforts but on our own. Many known and unknown people dedicated thousands of work hours not for their stakeholders but for their passion and believes - StarCraft! Today we survive because there are such people as Qikz (and others but he is the poster before me <3). Not because Blizzard are doing a thing. We can help by posting tweets and broadcasting about how passionate we are about StarCraft. But we must use the tools we have in order to survive and continue to excite the people that are coming after us. Sharing a link to the page of a given tournament will do the job but please don't think that twitter can be home for our community. - Tweets come and go. Hashtags change their meaning. History cannot be preserved - not in well ordered and accessible way - critical for every community. In my professional career I've seen so many projects falling apart just because someone forgot from where they started, lost connection with the roots and just moved to the new place = instant fail. In order to do things properly we need to maintain what we got and use the new tools to an extend where they help us attract new talent. We gotta show them the path to the places our community hangs and has history behind. - If not we'll last no longer than the live of a tweet - less than 30 minutes. Said that - twitter is as good as any other medium, the difference is there that if we want to be seen we need to be more vocal than other places and we need to stick together. In the end - having a poll on Twitter and taking the results into account, instead of trying to reach the already working community where the core of your player base is located is a recipe for disaster.
Very well said, i second this.
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There is no reason to not share stuff on Twitter. I have absolutely no problem with that.
But having a decision that is based on a poll should be on their official Battle.Net forums. They have them for a reason and I am sure if the poll would have been posted there (alongside with a tweet about the poll on the forums from Grant), many more people would have voted in it.
And again that is the whole problem with this thing. Posting a poll about a game feature on Twitter is just not the way, SC:R Devs should handle things.
But in the end, I should probably shut up after all and be happy that Blizzard firing people, did not affect SC:R Devs (at least it seems like it).
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49039 Posts
On February 16 2019 01:13 chrisolo wrote: There is no reason to not share stuff on Twitter. I have absolutely no problem with that.
But having a decision that is based on a poll should be on their official Battle.Net forums. They have them for a reason and I am sure if the poll would have been posted there (alongside with a tweet about the poll on the forums from Grant), many more people would have voted in it.
And again that is the whole problem with this thing. Posting a poll about a game feature on Twitter is just not the way, SC:R Devs should handle things.
But in the end, I should probably shut up after all and be happy that Blizzard firing people, did not affect SC:R Devs (at least it seems like it).
exactly, any sort of change/decision to be decided on a twitter poll of all things sets a bad precedent for the future(even though I doubt this happens again), this isn't about who uses twitter or not, its a decision that must be discussed.
I'm of the mind that reps of < 2mins should also be auto saved.
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The couple of polls I found on this website were at couple thousand views, but only 375 votes max, most at around 100-200 votes.
If we assume that the ladder is the size it used to be, lets say of those 500,000 (from starlog, and above 1200mmr) maybe 200,000 were separate users, 300 is 0.15% and 100 (Grants poll) is about 0.05% of the population. Neither equals even a full percentage.
Also, my opinion isn't meant to be some god send thing because I held tournaments (which im not even doing anymore) just my opinion.
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On February 15 2019 21:29 Qikz wrote: I'm going to re-word this, but I feel that if Grant and Matt want to use Twitter to communicate with us then we should accomodate. All other eSports even SC2 (which long gave up using Teamliquid as the hub, they use reddit now) AND WarCraft 3 use twitter as the main way to share content alongside reddit. Why were we not doing the same? That is where the eyes are in the foreign scene.
Unless someone knows Teamliquid used to be a BW community, nobody who isn't already here is ever going to come to TL to find out about tournaments. People don't even know they exist. That's why moving to places like Twitter to share content is a good thing for the scene. The more people that share, the more eyes you have on it. Facebook groups too as Grast says is another avenue, but we shouldn't just use one, we should use all. Uhh...no offense qikz but how does this make any sense? Why should masses of people accommodate a corporations poor decision? I hate twitter, I imagine quite a few people here share a similar antipathy or at least disinterest. Blizzard can very easily contact the community on teamliquid, the battle.net forums, and twitter. They could use reddit too. The reason warcraft etc moved to twitter was purely organic, they didnt decide en masse to work against their natural predilections as some weird servile gesture.
edit: That is where the eyes are in the foreign scene. No, its where the eyes are in certain gaming communities-- maybe warcraft players have a lot of eyes on twitter. Not starcraft. Reddit and B.net are going to get a lot more starcraft players than twitter [or TL].
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TLADT24918 Posts
I don't personally used twitter and didn't even realize they were polling people on there either until this post so good on the OP for making us aware of it. I believe it's the wrong call because as mentioned by many folks, battle.net, TL, reddit etc... are all other viable options that imo are better suited to reaching the audience they want. Alternatively, have it in the launcher would reach every SC player too.
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Well, for cheating purposes i'd say yes, but otherwise, no.
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I'd rather kill myself than sign up for a social media platform to get information or news about Starcraft when we have a very well working forum system.
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