|
On December 14 2018 01:30 Paragleiber wrote: I don't understand people who see the current situation as very unfair but if GSL was Korea only suddenly everything would be perfectly cool for them. It's not really that huge of a difference. Right now WCS is 100% foreign and GSL is like 90% Korean. It's not that far away from how it would be fully separated in terms of the number of players.
Well, the gist of it would be that the Korean scene is a scene of about 30-ish players you could consider progamers, and any extra money they earn contributes to it not getting less. Removing non-Koreans from GSL could also theoretically contribute to the number of pros going up a bit. If some of the amateur players that have been around for years can suddenly make real money in GSL because non-Koreans are banned (non-Koreans don't just directly eliminate Koreans in qualifiers, they also cause the brackets to shifted just by being there) it definitely wouldn't hurt.
|
What if players were given 1 or 2 exemptions a year to play in the other circuit? So much has changed in the scene it's time to address the intended unfairness of WCS.
|
|
It's too bad those betting scandals in Korea ever happened. Because besides from the people now banned & blacklisted, it also had to scare off any potential investors of teams, teamhouses & events. Perhaps if that never happened, one of the bigger teams couldve funded a korean team house overseas, like NoRegret has done for the foreigners.
I do still believe a better solution could be found than the current rules governing the situation. I just don't know if theres that much of a push/desire to change them within Blizzard.
|
On December 14 2018 01:30 Paragleiber wrote: I don't understand people who see the current situation as very unfair but if GSL was Korea only suddenly everything would be perfectly cool for them. It's not really that huge of a difference. Right now WCS is 100% foreign and GSL is like 90% Korean. It's not that far away from how it would be fully separated in terms of the number of players.
Also if we view WCS as half the world's prize money and GSL as the other half, why is it so important for people that Koreans get exactly 50% of the world's prize money? Why can't it be 45%? Either way Korea gets treated very differently than any other individual country. And of course it deserves to be treated differently because it's way stronger but who's to say that it deserves exactly 50% of the money and not 45 or 55 or something else? That seems like a very arbitrary demand.
I can understand people who want no region lock at all because that would be a very big change but I don't get people who hate the current situation but would be totally fine with full region lock because it really isn't that huge of a difference when there are only like 3 foreigners in GSL. And the "fairness" argument is nonsense to me because as I explained either way Korea gets a totally different status from other countries and it's super arbitrary to say that Korea being worth exactly 50% of the world is "fair".
Thanks, that's what I think too! Korea gained its special spot in Starcraft because the people were so interested in the game ,and with the people came money and tournaments. Now it seems that things have changed, I don't have numbers but i doubt that the korean scene is as big anymore as the global scene probably not even as big as the NA or EU scene. The size of the scene(viewers, active players,...) should be and probably is the biggest measure for Blizzard to decide where and how they invest into SC2.
|
Region lock is fine. If some changes are needed then make it so foreigners cannot play in GSL.
|
On December 14 2018 01:30 Paragleiber wrote: Also if we view WCS as half the world's prize money and GSL as the other half, why is it so important for people that Koreans get exactly 50% of the world's prize money? Why can't it be 45%? Either way Korea gets treated very differently than any other individual country. And of course it deserves to be treated differently because it's way stronger but who's to say that it deserves exactly 50% of the money and not 45 or 55 or something else? That seems like a very arbitrary demand. Well, you should also consider how many players there are from each country. Right now I would estimate there to be around 50 or so active Korean players. For the rest of the world there might be around 60-70 players that can be considered active pro players (basically people who are playing full time and are consistently playing in every WCS). Back before all the region-locking stuff, the Korean numbers might've been closer to like 70-80 while the foreign numbers were probably like 30-40. So while it's true Korea is only one country, the Korean scene still represents a huge chunk of the professional scene.
|
8716 Posts
If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent.
|
What is the purpose of the region lock? Letting the foreign scene grow? Interesting, the foreign scene is super healthy and instead the top foreigners are knocking out the new blood in korea and preventing them from coming into the spotlight and maybe getting som prize money.
The region lock has no purpose any more, the only question, does the fans want to see tournaments with mixed foreigner and koreans or would there be more viewers with "pure" tournaments. I don't know but I don't think it matters enough as a reason to keep the region lock.
You should never be able to compete in both WCS and GSL at the same time but other foreign events should always be open to everyone. Either region lock both ways or no region lock, personally I would prefer no region lock because I just don't see the reason for it anymore.
|
Most likely all korean players feel the same way. It's unlikely that any one korean player would be so outspoken against an authority unless all the other players agree with it. It's time to make the restriction fair or remove region lock altogether.
|
It's all quite pointless unless there is any sort of long term plan.
If the koreans would know that the GSL and other tournaments would be running for the next say, 3 years, that would help the scene as well. One could argue that it seems likely that the wcs will continue for at least that long so stopping the region lock would provide that security for koreans who want to play in that (which includes mainly the top players who don't suffer that much in the current system anyway).
|
On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood.
I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL.
|
On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL.
This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years.
|
On December 14 2018 03:16 Shuffleblade wrote: The region lock has no purpose any more, the only question, does the fans want to see tournaments with mixed foreigner and koreans or would there be more viewers with "pure" tournaments. I don't know but I don't think it matters enough as a reason to keep the region lock. The worry is if they let all koreans into WCS, all events would look like Katowice (where the top 12 were 11 koreans and Serral).
You can't really tell what they effect of opening up WCS would be. Would koreans overun the events like they used to? Or would only a few fly over and it make for an interesting competition?
|
On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically.
|
On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There was definitely more than there is now. SpeeD, Trust, Ragnarok, Zoun, Forte, Pet, DRGling, and a few other young players were still on kespa teams before the disband. Along with a bunch of lesser players from WoL/HotS that could might have ended up breaking out. I don't think any of those guys other than Ragnarok still compete anything close to full time.
Of course during the end of the kespa era teams were full of champions and gradually cutting the number of players they had. So new blood struggled in a similar manner to now, just to a lesser degree.
|
On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically.
I feel like you didn't really engage the main point here, i am saying there is no new blood because young players simply do not play sc2 in korea. If anything what is missing is an actual amateur series where they can battle it out regularly, but looking at general online tournaments there simply don't seem to be a lot of amateurs in the first place. So sure, go ahead and change the system because there are a few players who maybe would be able to take a spot in gsl if they get lucky enough, but this doesn't actually change anything. People go pro because they like the game and are already investing countless hours into the game to get good out of pure joy and passion, in korea sc2 isn't popular enough to really bring in the next generation of players. Personally i would rather have a system which helps GSL than helping some kids who probably wouldn't commit and who can still just do anything else with their lives. So at least in my POV it is fine to "screw them over" because i don't think it actually does. If afreeca wants foreigners out of their tournament they should be able to make that decision, if they think it is good for gsl so be it as well.
On December 14 2018 05:28 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There was definitely more than there is now. SpeeD, Trust, Ragnarok, Zoun, Forte, Pet, DRGling, and a few other young players were still on kespa teams before the disband. Along with a bunch of lesser players from WoL/HotS that could might have ended up breaking out. I don't think any of those guys other than Ragnarok still compete anything close to full time. Of course during the end of the kespa era teams were full of champions and gradually cutting the number of players they had. So new blood struggled in a similar manner to now, just to a lesser degree.
Ofc there were more, proleague and the team situation actually might have made it possible to go pro. I just used this example because even back then there weren't a lot, it just shows how much young gamers cared about sc2. As i said above, a young gamer simply plays the game he enjoys, gets better at it and then at a high lvl he either commits fully if he thinks the scene is worth it or not. Young people in korea play other games, that's all there is to it. Obviously this is also true for the rest of the world, it's not like there would be a lot of young people picking up sc2 over fortnite or lol or whatever the games are these days, but back when the decision to region lock was made the situation was still rather different. There were countless of koreans not only making it less likely for new blood to break through, they also made it impossible for people already on the lower pro levels. Sc2 was also always more popular in the rest of the world comparatively.
|
On December 14 2018 05:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 03:16 Shuffleblade wrote: The region lock has no purpose any more, the only question, does the fans want to see tournaments with mixed foreigner and koreans or would there be more viewers with "pure" tournaments. I don't know but I don't think it matters enough as a reason to keep the region lock. The worry is if they let all koreans into WCS, all events would look like Katowice (where the top 12 were 11 koreans and Serral). You can't really tell what they effect of opening up WCS would be. Would koreans overun the events like they used to? Or would only a few fly over and it make for an interesting competition? I really don't understand why this is a problem. Katowice/Blizzcon should be a world championship, and should represent the best players in the world at a given time. Foreigners have time and time proven that they are getting better and can stand their own against Koreans. Why do we need to artificially give them a ledge up for a tournament as competitive as Katowice.
|
I still haven't seen any evidence that it's Afreeca wanting foreigners in the GSL and not Blizzard forcing them to have them.
|
I find it a very bad decision to region lock any tournament at all. If you are getting farmed by Koreans, just get the fuck better, don't region lock them. Dota2 had times when Chinese teams would top the internationals but nobody proposed region lock or bs like that. We should have region lock Brazilians as well from football? We should have "region lock" Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aswell, because of the viewers, sure, and examples such as these can be invoked ad nauseaum, I am sure you, the reader can bring an even meaningful example of a nation that does overall better than anything else at a certain sport/esport. Such stupid arguments you guys bring to keep the region lock I really start to question if you don't fall for the "If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth." psych trick. Especially NonY and his arguments.
|
|
|
|