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On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that?
Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene.
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I regret sounding a bit passive aggressive there so I should clarify that I am not trying to start a fight or anything but I was admittedly annoyed for a moment.
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On December 15 2018 01:35 TrashEconomy wrote: I am pro-Korean, and as a Westerner, I find it shameful that the only way we could become competitive in SC2 was basically by locking out the Korean players.
However, at this point, why do we care about keeping the Korean scene alive? They don't invest in the teamhouse infrastructure anymore, they have zero new blood coming up, and the game isn't even popular there.
Why not just let the Korean scene die off and have Westerners take over, with the premier Koreans lingering around? There is zero gap between the WCS pros and the B-tier Koreans like Cure, Impact, etc, and Westerners are starting to be competitive with the A-list Koreans. Korea is a tiny country and I don't understand the fixation on keeping them relevant. Would anyone care if Norwegian SC2 was dying? No? So why do we care about Korea dying, if they aren't even investing into the game themselves? Because some of the best players are in Korea, playing in Korea, stuck in Korea?
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On December 15 2018 07:08 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that? Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene. Whatever u say removing the region lock ain't a solution
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On December 15 2018 09:00 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2018 07:08 Anc13nt wrote:On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that? Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene. Whatever u say removing the region lock ain't a solution
I agree and I have said earlier that the best solution agreed upon by many progamers and fans is to keep region lock while making GSL Korean only. I would personally like to see region lock relaxed for mid-level Korean players but I know that that is unlikely and probably not very popular so I am not advocating for it or anything like that.
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There is more money in GSL than there is in the WCS circuit, is there not? Koreans win significantly more money than foreigners, do they not? So if the current money is not enough to sustain the Korean scene, how much is enough?
The lack of new blood in the Korean scene is not due to a lack of money, nor is it due to a handful of foreigners competing in the GSL. If there is any reason for it, aside from a general Korean disinterest in the game, it is because of the continuing presence of the old guard. Don't conceptualize the SC2 scene as being divided into Koreans and foreigners. Instead think of it as being divided into KeSPA and non-KeSPA. KeSPA might be dead but its legacy lives on in the old guard, and Korean rookies get eaten alive just as foreigners do. What is needed to foster new blood in Korea is not to unleash the ex-KeSPA progamers on the foreign scene once again, but rather to protect Korean rookies from the ex-KeSPA progamers, just as foreigners are protected. Reduce Code S to a 16-player tournament and divert some of its prize-money to a new Code A or something along those lines. Or just wait for the old guard to go to the military and hope that the scene isn't dead by then.
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Just as a quick note, a number of people are claiming that GSL has a greater prize pool than WCS. This is false. The prize pools listed on Liquipedia for WCS tournaments do not include the totals for Challenger/qualifying events. These combined add nearly $240k to the WCS Circuit total.
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Actually I think there's no perfect solution,it's a dilemma.I don't know if there are enough Korean players for GSL qualifiers if non-Koreans don't participate.
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On December 15 2018 14:21 Kalera wrote: Just as a quick note, a number of people are claiming that GSL has a greater prize pool than WCS. This is false. The prize pools listed on Liquipedia for WCS tournaments do not include the totals for Challenger/qualifying events. These combined add nearly $240k to the WCS Circuit total. Can you show us your math for WCS?
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On December 15 2018 19:12 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2018 14:21 Kalera wrote: Just as a quick note, a number of people are claiming that GSL has a greater prize pool than WCS. This is false. The prize pools listed on Liquipedia for WCS tournaments do not include the totals for Challenger/qualifying events. These combined add nearly $240k to the WCS Circuit total. Can you show us your math for WCS?
Qualifier Prize Pools per WCS stop: Europe: $10k NA: $10k SA: $10k TW/HK/Macau/JPN: ~$10k China: ~$9k SEA: ~$8k Total Qualifier Prize Pool: $57,000 x 4 stops = ~$228k extra WCS Circuit Total: $228k + 4 * $101k (per stop) = ~$632k
GSL Total: ~$159k per season * 3 = ~$477k
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Canada8772 Posts
On December 16 2018 01:37 sunnyshine wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2018 19:12 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On December 15 2018 14:21 Kalera wrote: Just as a quick note, a number of people are claiming that GSL has a greater prize pool than WCS. This is false. The prize pools listed on Liquipedia for WCS tournaments do not include the totals for Challenger/qualifying events. These combined add nearly $240k to the WCS Circuit total. Can you show us your math for WCS? Qualifier Prize Pools per WCS stop: Europe: $10k NA: $10k SA: $10k TW/HK/Macau/JPN: ~$10k China: ~$9k SEA: ~$8k Total Qualifier Prize Pool: $57,000 x 4 stops = ~$228k extra WCS Circuit Total: $228k + 4 * $101k (per stop) = ~$632k GSL Total: ~$159k per season * 3 = ~$477k
Don't you need to had Super Tournaments in the GSL count? (Does Blizz pay for them?) It would be another 50k going up to about 530K a year, but it's open to every korean while challenger is split among nationality and a bigger number of player. Pretty even opportunities barring the fact that foreigner can play in GSL
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On December 14 2018 18:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 10:54 SetStndbySmn wrote: Based on what just got announced with the HGC, we should probably thank our lucky stars if nothing at all happens to WCS/GSL. Things could be more unfair. A LOT more unfair. Like abruptly losing your job unfair. How would that be unfair. It would really suck for the players - much more than the region-lock but nothing about it would be unfair since no scene would get special treatment based on their origin.
I mean it in the sense of life being unfair as far as effort and expectations. It's an innocuous comment equivalent to "things could be worse." You don't need to argue literally everything.
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Region lock has always been an obvious mistake. The only question is whether we'd rather correct it - probably way too late - or pretend we did everything right.
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On December 15 2018 07:08 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that? Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene. You mean apart from the korean netziens attacking progamers online a lot, and a lot of korean progamers...cheating?
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On December 16 2018 02:53 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2018 07:08 Anc13nt wrote:On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that? Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene. You mean apart from the korean netziens attacking progamers online a lot, and a lot of korean progamers...cheating? Agreed. Foreign netizens never attack progamers and foreign progamers never cheat.
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On December 16 2018 01:48 SetStndbySmn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 18:04 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 10:54 SetStndbySmn wrote: Based on what just got announced with the HGC, we should probably thank our lucky stars if nothing at all happens to WCS/GSL. Things could be more unfair. A LOT more unfair. Like abruptly losing your job unfair. How would that be unfair. It would really suck for the players - much more than the region-lock but nothing about it would be unfair since no scene would get special treatment based on their origin. I mean it in the sense of life being unfair as far as effort and expectations. It's an innocuous comment equivalent to "things could be worse." You don't need to argue literally everything. that's not unfair that's just life. Sometimes your effort doesn't pay off if you put it in the wrong direction. I get what you mean with things could be worse but the term unfair just doesn't apply here.
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On December 16 2018 02:24 Nebuchad wrote: Region lock has always been an obvious mistake. The only question is whether we'd rather correct it - probably way too late - or pretend we did everything right.
Unfortunately a number of people still left in this community love sticking their heads in the sand and pretending that Blizzard knows best and has never made any mistakes with respect to anything.
EDIT: I mean it's one thing when the people regularly cashing paychecks from Blizzard defend the system, even if sometimes they may have gone a bit overboard or were clumsy in how they did it. But when people from the community who consider themselves fans take it one step further and genuinely believe that their cause is righteous, that's when you know you're fighting a losing battle.
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On December 13 2018 17:37 dummy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2018 17:21 deacon.frost wrote: We can discuss why the prominent figures of the English side of SC2 are pretending this is a fair system
Two-faced people. Paid by Blizzard. User was warned for this post This has been phrased aggresively but is essentially true. You cannot expect people who gain considerable advantages from the status quo to be honest while defending it, especially when it is blatantly unfair. I agree with another poster who said that the system is unfair and it is just about how much it being unfair actually helps sc2 as a whole. In my opinion this should not have been implemented anyway and I believe that the considerable closing in the gap between kr and nonkr was not due to region lock but rather due to most serious teamhouses shutting down in korea.
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On December 16 2018 03:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2018 02:53 Dazed. wrote:On December 15 2018 07:08 Anc13nt wrote:On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that? Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene. You mean apart from the korean netziens attacking progamers online a lot, and a lot of korean progamers...cheating? Agreed. Foreign netizens never attack progamers and foreign progamers never cheat. Do you know what scale is? Rather important to this conversation, yeah? The korean pros' who cheated were substantial, and it rocked the scene. Nothing equivalent happened in the foreign scene, ditto for online drama. Your a joke.
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Canada8772 Posts
On December 16 2018 04:08 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2018 03:17 Charoisaur wrote:On December 16 2018 02:53 Dazed. wrote:On December 15 2018 07:08 Anc13nt wrote:On December 15 2018 00:20 Brutaxilos wrote:On December 14 2018 18:32 MockHamill wrote: I like the region lock. I remember how awful SC2 was back when there were only Koreans in the top 8 in every tournament, Western players going extinct.
I suspect the Korean dominance, combined the SwarmHost/Infestor is what caused the decline of SC2.
Now when SC2 is slowly getting more popular again thanks to FTP letting Koreans into WCS would introduce an unnecessary risk.
SC2 is declining in Korea but not in the rest of the world. The Koreans have themselves to blame, they prioritize other games and are now reaping the consequences. I will say this again, when the foreign scene was on life support, Blizzard swooped in and added the region lock. Now that the roles are reversed, you want to pull the plug on the Korean scene? What kind of weird-ass double standard is that? Exactly. I think this is why there is animus between foreigner fans and Korean fans. And honestly, I hope the statement "The Koreans have themselves to blame" was poor choice of words because it honestly irritates me. I struggle to see what the Koreans fans and players have done to deserve blame for the decline of the scene. Some (very few, to be clear).foreigner fans honestly do not really care about supporting the Korean scene. You mean apart from the korean netziens attacking progamers online a lot, and a lot of korean progamers...cheating? Agreed. Foreign netizens never attack progamers and foreign progamers never cheat. Do you know what scale is? Rather important to this conversation, yeah? The korean pros' who cheated were substantial, and it rocked the scene. Nothing equivalent happened in the foreign scene, ditto for online drama. Your a joke.
I mean a good part of the 2014-15 online scene was funded by illegal gambling, and yes it was not match fixing by the player but most of these tournament were put on by foreign organizations and foreign player played in it (plus all the "team" that never payed their player or other random tournament never paying prize pool). And also just open any twitch chat/browse twitter for 5 min, we do a fine job harassing people on our own.
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