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On July 19 2018 04:47 Elmonti wrote: Wow, not even US Postal dared to do this kind of things... they just don't care about anything xD
Well, lets see the fight for the second/third place, maybe (hopefully) in a few years he will become champion. Nice strat from Movistar, but Nairo just wasn't strong enough, it looks like he isn't that good in mountains anymore. Dumoulin so brave, did a fantastic ride. Roglic holding with the best climbers yet again. But well, what can you do when the cobblestone specialist Kiatkowski climbs as good as the best climbers...
Fun/Sad stage at the same time. Alpe d'Huez tomorrow.
Kwiatek was an ardennes specialist before trying the cobbles. kwiatek was also left behind completely empty today.
The double standards in your post are amazing.
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Quintana´s peak seemed to be 2015, Dumoulin is strong but he will have the gas to fight against Sky?,and Sky ...well they have the best "academy" team, just get there and you will be a world class climber.
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On July 19 2018 05:14 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 04:47 Elmonti wrote: Wow, not even US Postal dared to do this kind of things... they just don't care about anything xD
Well, lets see the fight for the second/third place, maybe (hopefully) in a few years he will become champion. Nice strat from Movistar, but Nairo just wasn't strong enough, it looks like he isn't that good in mountains anymore. Dumoulin so brave, did a fantastic ride. Roglic holding with the best climbers yet again. But well, what can you do when the cobblestone specialist Kiatkowski climbs as good as the best climbers...
Fun/Sad stage at the same time. Alpe d'Huez tomorrow. Kwiatek was an ardennes specialist before trying the cobbles. kwiatek was also left behind completely empty today. The double standards in your post are amazing.
Being an Ardennes specialist doesn't mean you can ride with the best 15 climbers in the Tour. Kwiato is not a climber, just as Gilbert, Alaphilippe or Gasparotto are not climbers. He might be good at short climbs that require more power than w/kg, but today's stage was not like that... not even close. He is not supposed to set the pace for the best 10 climbers in the Tour de France. Just like Boasson Hagen or Mark Cavendish were not supposed to set the pace of the bunch in mountain stages in the 2012 Tour de France, or Geraint Thomas, a pistard becoming a top10 climber when he is 30 years old.
If you could explain to me the "double standards" thing, I would thank you.
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On July 19 2018 04:43 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 03:43 stilt wrote: The quintana from 2015 seems so far away. Too bad for the race, only Dumoulin seems to be a potential threat but still, I might be the only frenchman who will cheer for Froomey's victory :D Yea Quintana never even tries to attack at this point. Also is Uran's super disappointing for just cuz of his crash? Cuz yikes...
Yea, Uran's knee is fucked up.
Quintana I don't think it's that he doesn't try, I just don't think he can. He doesn't seem to have his prime form from a few years back, not sure what's off about his training or preparation but he isn't at that level.
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On July 19 2018 04:47 Elmonti wrote: Wow, not even US Postal dared to do this kind of things... they just don't care about anything xD
Well, lets see the fight for the second/third place, maybe (hopefully) in a few years he will become champion. Nice strat from Movistar, but Nairo just wasn't strong enough, it looks like he isn't that good in mountains anymore. Dumoulin so brave, did a fantastic ride. Roglic holding with the best climbers yet again. But well, what can you do when the cobblestone specialist Kiatkowski climbs as good as the best climbers...
Fun/Sad stage at the same time. Alpe d'Huez tomorrow.
Dared? If you're good enough, you do it. Nothing sad about the stage at all.
Kwaitkowski. Kwaitkowski wasn't remotely close to "climbing as good as the best climbers". He was hopelessly outclassed. He couldn't even go as fast as Dumoulin, who had been out on his own for a long time, for the mere 15' or so he was pulling the train. He looked exactly how you'd expect a smaller classics star to climb.
I don't know if you watched it, but Dumoulin gained time when Kwaitkowski was on the front. So, for about 15' Kwaitkowski was marginally worse than Dumoulin, who is far and away from the best climber. He's a top 10 climber in the world at best, who gets better results against better climbers sometimes because they attack each other and he just rides steady while they waste energy.
So anyway, you've got Kwaitkowski going on the front for 15' going a little slower than Dumoulin. That's for 15'. You can do a crapton more over 15' than you can over 30' or over 45'. HUGE difference. Especially for a punchier guy like Kwaitsowski. Moreover, the GC guys behind Kwaitkowski were just chillin. G took off. Froome, Bardet, and the other others started ripping attacks. The pace wasn't that hard. Moreover, Kwaitkowski dug in very deep for that and came to a complete stop afterwords. He probably would have dropped 2-3' earlier had Bernal not been struggling with his injuries.
Finally, from a wattage perspective, Kwaitkowski went 12.1mph up a 8.2% grade. He is listed at 67kg, which is 400w absolute full gas, for 15'. Not shocking. Ordinary. Expected almost for a smaller, classics specialist.
Morevoer, I don't know if you were watching yesterday, but GVA outclimbed Robert Hesink. Robert Hesink. Multi time stage winner. This is GVA we are talking about. A true classics specialist that's a mountain of a dude compared to tiny Kwaitkowski.
Sky is obviously a strong team, and has stacked talent. The performance we saw from them today was strong, and also totally believable. Especially when you consider there budget comically dwarfs the others in the peleton allowing them to but the best riders.
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Please define "believable"
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On July 19 2018 05:40 Elmonti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 05:14 KobraKay wrote:On July 19 2018 04:47 Elmonti wrote: Wow, not even US Postal dared to do this kind of things... they just don't care about anything xD
Well, lets see the fight for the second/third place, maybe (hopefully) in a few years he will become champion. Nice strat from Movistar, but Nairo just wasn't strong enough, it looks like he isn't that good in mountains anymore. Dumoulin so brave, did a fantastic ride. Roglic holding with the best climbers yet again. But well, what can you do when the cobblestone specialist Kiatkowski climbs as good as the best climbers...
Fun/Sad stage at the same time. Alpe d'Huez tomorrow. Kwiatek was an ardennes specialist before trying the cobbles. kwiatek was also left behind completely empty today. The double standards in your post are amazing. Being an Ardennes specialist doesn't mean you can ride with the best 15 climbers in the Tour. Kwiato is not
He set the pace for them for 15'. He didn't ride with the 15 best climbers in the tour. Dumoulin was taking time from Kwaitko out on his own. The other decent climbers behind were riding chill tempo. Kwaitko was doing like 5.8 w/kg for a mere 15'. That's as ordinary and believable as it gets for a decent pro.
He might be good at short climbs that require more power than w/kg
I don't think you understand the kind of rider Kwaitkowski is. He isn't some giant powerhouse like a GVA. He's a tiny, punchier guy that is a fantastic racer with a good kick. The guy weighs 67kg. And Kwaitkoski is MUCH better at short climbs. That's the case for those kind of riders. Kwaitkowski is sort of like an in between between a Valverde and a GVA.
He can't long climb like Valverde, and he can't smash vicious attack and run a huge engine like GVA; but he can do both of those things respectably.
Just like Boasson Hagen or Mark Cavendish were not supposed to set the pace of the bunch in mountain stages in the 2012 Tour de France
Are you really comparing Mark Cavendish to Michael Kwaitkowski? They are two TOTALLY different riders with wildly different power profiles.
Geraint Thomas, a pistard becoming a top10 climber when he is 30 years old.
Also not a shocker. A track pursuits with great 4-5' power gradually loses weight and works on extending his ability to handle fatigue and FTP for longer periods and becomes a good climber. Not surprising. No more surprising than Hamish Bond switching from rowing to cycling, dropping weight gradually, and becoming a world stage competitive time trialist.
If you have the physiology to smash it for 5' like a Thomas, it means you have killer anaeoribic power and punch, along with a strong threshold. Bring up that percentage of VO2 you can hold at threshold and drop some weight and you now have a tour contender that can survive the long, hard climbs; and be in it to win it on easier climbs or shorter climbs.
A good number of riders can't drop weight and keep good power, but a percentage can, and do. Guys like Thomas and Bond can.
Relax on Sky dude. There is of course a good chance they are cheating, simply based on the fact they have won 4 of the last 5 years and do a remarkable job developing talent. That said, their performances are believable, especially when you consider the depth of their team is purely a function of a massive budget. Not one climb has a sky rider ever laid down a performance where one could lack at the data and say "hmm, that's suspicious".
They are suspicious, but not because individual rider performances. It's the consistency and continued dominance that's suspicious.
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On July 19 2018 16:01 Ghostcom wrote: Please define "believable"
First way is I'm not incredulous or suprised watching the performance. In no way am I thinking "drugs" or god forbid "motor".
Or another way: The performance is ordinary and not at all something that would surprise you the rider could do. Today was not some insane, exceptional ride by Kwaitkowski. It was a good ride, but by no mean an exceptional one.
Kwiatkowski, a light weight, capable time trialist; did 5.8 w/kg for a mere 15'. Shrug. Tony Martin could do that if he wanted. GVA could do that if he wanted. Sagan HAS done that (better actually, 6w/kg for 30') when he has wanted (year he won Amgen ToC with his Baldy climb). Kwaitkowski is, and has always been, a blatantly better climber than all of these riders.
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Doping discussions are pointless, believable performances can be result of doping and some 'unbelivable' performances can be legit and result of the best athletes pushing their limits. Without proof everything is speculation and arguments are biased on personal preferences.
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Today we should get a good picture at who is able to win the GC. Very tough stage, it's gonna be great. Wonder what'll happen with Thomas and Froome...
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On July 19 2018 16:07 L_Master wrote:First way is I'm not incredulous or suprised watching the performance. In no way am I thinking "drugs" or god forbid "motor". Or another way: The performance is ordinary and not at all something that would surprise you the rider could do. Today was not some insane, exceptional ride by Kwaitkowski. It was a good ride, but by no mean an exceptional one. Kwiatkowski, a light weight, capable time trialist; did 5.8 w/kg for a mere 15'. Shrug. Tony Martin could do that if he wanted. GVA could do that if he wanted. Sagan HAS done that (better actually, 6w/kg for 30') when he has wanted (year he won Amgen ToC with his Baldy climb). Kwaitkowski is, and has always been, a blatantly better climber than all of these riders.
Did you think "motor" or "drugs" in the US postal days?
All that aside, I don't find yesterday ride all that suspicious, except one has to be impressed by how many of Sky can peak multiple times a year and how much better they are a timing it than anyone else of the professionals.
I also agree that one shouldn't judge based on a single performance, but when you go from amateur level climbing to best in the peloton I think it is time to ask some questions. Especially if you claim to suffer from at least three different debilitating diseases to justify your magical transformation. Especially whilst being historically dominant in a fairly talented (and proven doped up) field.
But I doubt either of us are going to convince the other, and that is fine. We can after all still enjoy the spectacle and the story unfold. Here is hoping for a good stage today.
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Kittel, Renshaw, Cavendish got eliminated by not making it in time yesteday Zabel also came 5 secs late but was allowed to stay with the tour. Uran decided not to start today, citing injuries from the Roubaix stage.
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On July 19 2018 16:07 L_Master wrote:First way is I'm not incredulous or suprised watching the performance. In no way am I thinking "drugs" or god forbid "motor". Or another way: The performance is ordinary and not at all something that would surprise you the rider could do. Today was not some insane, exceptional ride by Kwaitkowski. It was a good ride, but by no mean an exceptional one. Kwiatkowski, a light weight, capable time trialist; did 5.8 w/kg for a mere 15'. Shrug. Tony Martin could do that if he wanted. GVA could do that if he wanted. Sagan HAS done that (better actually, 6w/kg for 30') when he has wanted (year he won Amgen ToC with his Baldy climb). Kwaitkowski is, and has always been, a blatantly better climber than all of these riders.
That performance is NOT ordinary. You talk about "mere" 15' at 5.8 w/kg as if Kwiato would have jumped out of the Sky car, do that job and then jumped back in. Before that he had to work the same as those 15 best climbers, so that's not an argument...using your examples: the day Tony Martin, Sagan or GvA stay with the climbers for a whole stage with two HCs climbs, a 1st cat and another 2nd cat, and after having done all this, decide to set the pace dropping Yates, Zakarin or Uran, leaving the main group in the best 8-10 climbers...THAT day your comparison will make sense. Let alone doing almost the same thing but with a main group of 20 riders in the previous stage (1 HC, 3 1st).
That blatantly better climber thought he could won the Tirreno-Adriatico 2014 and the moment they rode up the Passo Lanciano (HC) he hit a wall and lost 6'. Being able to win a 1week race with a 6km climb and a ITT doesnt make you anything close to a climber. And I like Kiatwo as a rider, i really do.
Please, don't reduce what is happening to a "mere" 15' at 5.8 w/kg. Cycling is a resistance sport. I think we can agree that data alone means absolutely nothing.
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Sprinters are dying.... Groenewegen, Greipel, Zabel, Sieberg are out. Gallopin also abandoned on the first climb.
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So what are you saying? That kwiato is doping in some way? Based on a good performance? Is no rider is allowed to do better than in the past? He may be, but then again he may not be, it's pure speculation and negativity. It's like seeing someone with a nice car and saying that guy must be corrupt or something.
Today is being a massacre for sprinter, Groenewegen, greipel and Zabel all out already. But having 3 gc guys on the break with so much lead can turn out to be very interesting.
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Gaviria will most likely drop out today as well...
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On July 19 2018 22:50 mahrgell wrote: Gaviria will most likely drop out today as well...
He did now. Hope Sagan doesn't, but I got no info on him.
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Gaviria also out, at this rate only 2 or 3 sprinter will get to Paris.
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On July 19 2018 22:53 HolydaKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 22:50 mahrgell wrote: Gaviria will most likely drop out today as well...
He did now. Hope Sagan doesn't, but I got no info on him.
Sagan is 12 minutes behind the leaders. 6 minutes behind the Peloton around the Sky train.
So he is pretty safe.
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On July 19 2018 22:58 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2018 22:53 HolydaKing wrote:On July 19 2018 22:50 mahrgell wrote: Gaviria will most likely drop out today as well...
He did now. Hope Sagan doesn't, but I got no info on him. Sagan is 12 minutes behind the leaders. 6 minutes behind the Peloton around the Sky train. So he is pretty safe. Yeah, that's good. He's not terrible at mountains, so it's no surprise.
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