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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 17 2018 03:40 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 03:28 Plansix wrote:On February 17 2018 03:23 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On February 17 2018 03:07 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 02:59 Velr wrote: How does that make my statement untrue?
Ypu accept your children beong shot in school because freedom. Its disgusting. You’re making a hero’s effort proving you aren’t coming for the guns, you’re in favor of common sense gun regulation. The problem is “freedom.” “It’s disgusting.” Plansix/JockMcPlop later on ... ... nobody’s demonizing gun owners and nobody going to take away your guns. The real problem is the NRA. Please stop playing victim. I didn't said "nobody". I said I was not doing it. Stop trying to create this fictional version of my stance that makes your arguments easier. Your efforts to avoid doing the very thing prevent progress on this issue is laudable. Your continued prosecution of the boogeyman NRA and Republicans is idiotic and partisan. The NRA isn't a boogeyman. They are the most powerful lobby in Washington right now and have been since the 1990s. I would say that FNMA was in a tie race up until the mortgage crisis, but after that its been the NRA. If they got out of the way, we would have some high quality gun safety laws and maybe even a federal licence to carry. The sky would be the limit. The NRA’s power is in its membership that, unlike you, listen and critique people that want to demonize gun owners and ban guns. You just keep pointing at your boogeyman (“hey man I’m right because everybody calls them the boogeyman”) and never the whole issue. And scaring the ever living shit out of their members. You forget that my family owns guns and my brother is an avid gun owner. I deal with the NRA's lies all the time. They constantly lie about a bans on guns or taking guns away from people who own them.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/04/08/473581490/episode-694-the-gun-that-wouldnt-shoot
Let us never forget that the gun industry and gun lobby refuses to allow people to invent or market ways to make guns safer. The invention would be imperfect, flawed and need refinement, but that doesn't matter. It isn't enough that they don't support people trying to invent ways to make guns safer, they have to kill any attempts to make them safer.
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So is the republican government, in form of the ATF then going to regulate bump stocks now that democrats totally blocked by also not wanting suppressers sold to the public? Or is the will of your party to prohibit bump stocks tied to bipartisanship here? You have the senate and the house, you could simply make your own bill and outrule them without any additions. When is this going to happen?
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On February 17 2018 03:53 Jockmcplop wrote: So you aren't denying it then. Good.
It seems like you're being incredibly hostile here considering I agreed with you if the dems are causing problems then this is on them too.
As fa as I can see, you have access obscure facts about single incidents, and then you bring them out when arguing with someone from another country to deflect and confuse them and claim some kind of mad moral high ground.
Also, coincidentally, this seems to allow you to completely avoid answering genuine questions by ranting.
As far as I can tell, you want to say the way things are (to contradict another poster) and also say you can’t be held accountable for not knowing you were wrong because it’s the US and you don’t give a shit. Stand by what you wrote or retract once you say the complete opposite. You can’t both say superstartran is wrong because [its really this] and a couple posts later say [i don’t really know what it is, I’m not US/i don’t give a shit]. It’s rather emblematic of some people’s approach to gun control. It’s say wrong things, don’t apologize but offer half hearted excuses for why you didn’t know, find safety in attacking the NRA, and back to saying wrong things.
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On February 17 2018 03:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 03:40 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 03:28 Plansix wrote:On February 17 2018 03:23 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 03:12 Plansix wrote:On February 17 2018 03:07 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 02:59 Velr wrote: How does that make my statement untrue?
Ypu accept your children beong shot in school because freedom. Its disgusting. You’re making a hero’s effort proving you aren’t coming for the guns, you’re in favor of common sense gun regulation. The problem is “freedom.” “It’s disgusting.” Plansix/JockMcPlop later on ... ... nobody’s demonizing gun owners and nobody going to take away your guns. The real problem is the NRA. Please stop playing victim. I didn't said "nobody". I said I was not doing it. Stop trying to create this fictional version of my stance that makes your arguments easier. Your efforts to avoid doing the very thing prevent progress on this issue is laudable. Your continued prosecution of the boogeyman NRA and Republicans is idiotic and partisan. The NRA isn't a boogeyman. They are the most powerful lobby in Washington right now and have been since the 1990s. I would say that FNMA was in a tie race up until the mortgage crisis, but after that its been the NRA. If they got out of the way, we would have some high quality gun safety laws and maybe even a federal licence to carry. The sky would be the limit. The NRA’s power is in its membership that, unlike you, listen and critique people that want to demonize gun owners and ban guns. You just keep pointing at your boogeyman (“hey man I’m right because everybody calls them the boogeyman”) and never the whole issue. And scaring the ever living shit out of their members. You forget that my family owns guns and my brother is an avid gun owner. I deal with the NRA's lies all the time. They constantly lie about a bans on guns or taking guns away from people who own them. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/04/08/473581490/episode-694-the-gun-that-wouldnt-shootLet us never forget that the gun industry and gun lobby refuses to allow people to invent or market ways to make guns safer. The invention would be imperfect, flawed and need refinement, but that doesn't matter. It isn't enough that they don't support people trying to invent ways to make guns safer, they have to kill any attempts to make them safer. See again, it’s the evil NRA and the evil things they get their members to believe. It’s never what gun control advocates say and the history of legislative attempts to ban the scary black ones and various punitive gun regulations in states and localities. The NRA can’t outdo what legitimate gun control supporters say and do. Not by a mile.
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At least when someone asks me a question danglars I actually answer it instead of trying to deflect by having a go at someone. Yeah I backtracked a little bit when confronted with something that i wasn't previously aware of, what else would you have me do? I suppose I could have just ranted at you and pretended that you never said it in the first place. Is that what passes for honest debate with you?
Frankly this entire tirade you are on is literally just a distraction because i asked if you would deny that the NRA refuse to let republicans move towards sensible gun control anyway.
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On February 17 2018 04:07 Jockmcplop wrote: At least when someone asks me a question danglars I actually answer it instead of trying to deflect by having a go at someone. Yeah I backtracked a little bit when confronted with something that i wasn't previously aware of, what else would you have me do? I suppose I could have just ranted at you and pretended that you never said it in the first place. Is that what passes for honest debate with you?
Frankly this entire tirade you are on is literally just a distraction because i asked if you would deny that the NRA refuse to let republicans move towards sensible gun control anyway. A little less stating the facts of the case like you knew them, and a little more researching the facts of the case (or the half remembered news story that gave conclusions you adopted). If you don’t know if someone like superstartran is wrong, don’t say he’s wrong and hope you’re right that he’s wrong. I’m always willing to listen to opinions offered sincerely based on what you’ve read. Just a tiny bit less of stating you know what the problem is and solutions are in response to a tragedy (and we can definitely use a ton less “these are the villains! Deride their villainy, fellow internet citizens!!!)
And to your question, we need to first move towards specific policy suggestions because “sensible gun control” is a vacuous statement that has been used previously to back any number of policy positions. Frequently, in the US, year after year, for decades. Then we talk about if they would’ve made a lick of difference in newtown or parkland. Then we get Congress to consider bump stock regs and police-reported threats of violence in background checks, and I’ll be right alongside allies if the NRA wants to adopt an extreme position on it (compare to: the NRA supported an ATF-originated ban on bump stocks).
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The 'half remembered news story' you are referring to is actually quite alot of news coverage. Pretty much all of the mainstream media acknowledges that the NRA and republican establishment is the biggest problem when it comes to passing any gun legislation at all. You could argue whether or not this is a good thing but I'm struggling to see how anyone could deny it, even if the democrats have played their part at times.
I'll give you one example: http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/politics/legislature/article_986cb390-2602-11e7-814a-e7d182461ecb.html
Barely a month ago the powerful Louisiana Sheriffs' Association was lining up behind a bill to ban toy guns from public schools.
Now the legislation is dead, a victim of Republican infighting and the politically potent National Rifle Association.
"It just did not sit well," said Rep. Dodie Horton, R-Haughton and sponsor of the measure.
The prefiled proposal, House Bill 43, was aimed at helping law enforcement combat what officials call a growing problem – students bringing toy guns to public schools that look identical to the real thing.
Banning the guns, Horton said, would help prevent police from having to make a split-second call, and injure or kill a student wielding a lookalike pistol.
The prohibition included toy guns, water guns, air guns and others "substantially similar" in color and appearance to a genuine firearm.
First-time violators faced fines of up to $250 and six months in jail, though Horton said she planned to change the penalties amid complaints about elementary students being jailed.
Horton took up the cause at the request of Bossier Parish Sheriff Julian Whittington, a self-described "gun guy" who called the fake guns "so real it is scary."
However, the Louisiana Legislature is considered one of the most gun-friendly bodies in the nation."
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On February 17 2018 03:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:There's nothing unique about USA compared to the rich world other than gun controls, or lack thereof. It was you who wrote: Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 02:48 superstartran wrote:
The statistics you listed bear no meaning to the unique situation of the United States of America. You cannot compare a highly homogeneous country like Japan to the United States; the areas where gun violence is most prevalent in the United States also happens to be where gun laws are incredibly strict such as Chicago, Baltimore, etc. predominantly in urban neighborhoods and predominantly among blacks.
But hey man, going with your logic that must mean blacks are violent people right? See, this is why you can't just throw out statistics on a whim without controlling for populations.
with the direct implication that the "unique" situation of USA is that blacks are responsible for the high gun violence in USA. There is no way other way to take it. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. So currently your train of thought is: USA is in a unique situation in regard to its high gun crime. USA is unique not because of it's unique lack of effective gun controls. USA is unique becuase its population is not homogenous. Gun crime occur predominantly among blacks. Then "But hey man, going with your logic that must mean blacks are violent people right?" You claim to be asking for controlling for ethnic population, wealth, but quite honestly I don't see what ethnic population has to do with anything unless you are saying that ethnic population (whatever that means in this context) is responsible for your perception that gun controls are ineffective in USA. Do different ethnic groups have different abilities to purchase guns? But hey man, going with your logic white people simply more predisposed towards school shootings and Vegas shootings right? But Rofl don't take this out of statement out of context. The point I was making is that if you don't control for things such as ethnic population, wealth, and various other different factors you can make any assumption you want. It's a statistical fact that whites on average commit far more school shootings and Vegas shootings in the United States than any other ethnic group in the United States. Going by the logic you guys are using, that would make white people predisposed towards shooting school children and concertgoers , when you and I know both know that's a load of horse shit, and that there are way more factors then simple numbers.
So basically you came around and agreed that all those statistics trying to cross compare a homogeneous country vs a heterogeneous country is basically bullshit. Ok. Glad we are in agreement.
Also it's incredibly disingenuous to believe that the United States and Japan are basically the same countries with the same culture.
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On February 17 2018 04:37 Jockmcplop wrote:The 'half remembered news story' you are referring to is actually quite alot of news coverage. Pretty much all of the mainstream media acknowledges that the NRA and republican establishment is the biggest problem when it comes to passing any gun legislation at all. You could argue whether or not this is a good thing but I'm struggling to see how anyone could deny it, even if the democrats have played their part at times. I'll give you one example: http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/politics/legislature/article_986cb390-2602-11e7-814a-e7d182461ecb.htmlShow nested quote +Barely a month ago the powerful Louisiana Sheriffs' Association was lining up behind a bill to ban toy guns from public schools.
Now the legislation is dead, a victim of Republican infighting and the politically potent National Rifle Association.
"It just did not sit well," said Rep. Dodie Horton, R-Haughton and sponsor of the measure.
The prefiled proposal, House Bill 43, was aimed at helping law enforcement combat what officials call a growing problem – students bringing toy guns to public schools that look identical to the real thing.
Banning the guns, Horton said, would help prevent police from having to make a split-second call, and injure or kill a student wielding a lookalike pistol.
The prohibition included toy guns, water guns, air guns and others "substantially similar" in color and appearance to a genuine firearm.
First-time violators faced fines of up to $250 and six months in jail, though Horton said she planned to change the penalties amid complaints about elementary students being jailed.
Horton took up the cause at the request of Bossier Parish Sheriff Julian Whittington, a self-described "gun guy" who called the fake guns "so real it is scary."
However, the Louisiana Legislature is considered one of the most gun-friendly bodies in the nation." If only you had said the NRA adopts positions beyond the average of their members, and not what i quoted you to say that directly contradicted a point by superstartran. I have no problem with you admitting you were wrong, and retrenching on sane positions on gun control. Absolutely none whatsoever. Unless you think it all can be traced back to toy guns in Louisiana (which I don’t think you are now doing). And sheesh, the article says the proposed legislation involved 250$ and six months in jail for elementary school kids bringing a plastic gun to school. I can think there’s non-insane reasons for opposing that guy too.
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Danglars can I ask what it is you think you have quoted me as saying? The only thing I said is that the biggest problem is the lack of movement towards gun control from politicians. I didn't originally blame anyone or act in a partisan way. I stick by that, because I'm no fan of the democrats or the republicans really, or the system in the US that allows lobbyists such as the NRA such incredible power over something they have a vested interest in that is so important for public safety.
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It's really important to continue to frame this as a politician problem rather than a topic of debates and discussions, and I wish more people understood that. So much effort is spent talking to people like Danglars or superstat as if they were ever going to give in or be convinced of anything, or worse, as if what was needed for some non-insane gun control was to convince people like them. It just takes a few days of deafness and inaction and we're back in the cycle of nothing until the next one. We have limited windows and we should use them to have the conversations that matter.
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On February 17 2018 04:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Danglars can I ask what it is you think you have quoted me as saying? The only thing I said is that the biggest problem is the lack of movement towards gun control from politicians. I didn't originally blame anyone or act in a partisan way. I stick by that, because I'm no fan of the democrats or the republicans really, or the system in the US that allows lobbyists such as the NRA such incredible power over something they have a vested interest in that is so important for public safety. You may refer to the actual posts that quote you. I don’t know if you’re misremembering now or never read and only skimmed my posts. It matters little to me if you do or don’t, or even care about consistency.
Also curious if you read analytically into news stories, like “powerful this group” and “victim of Republican infighting” and “politically potent.” The one I read on the issue made it out to be just the opposite “jailing kids as young as kindergarteners” and “is not intended to target five year olds but makes no exemption.” All based in some truth, but with heaps of editorializing on top of it.
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On February 17 2018 05:34 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 04:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Danglars can I ask what it is you think you have quoted me as saying? The only thing I said is that the biggest problem is the lack of movement towards gun control from politicians. I didn't originally blame anyone or act in a partisan way. I stick by that, because I'm no fan of the democrats or the republicans really, or the system in the US that allows lobbyists such as the NRA such incredible power over something they have a vested interest in that is so important for public safety. You may refer to the actual posts that quote you. I don’t know if you’re misremembering now or never read and only skimmed my posts. It matters little to me if you do or don’t, or even care about consistency. Also curious if you read analytically into news stories, like “powerful this group” and “victim of Republican infighting” and “politically potent.” The one I read on the issue made it out to be just the opposite “jailing kids as young as kindergarteners” and “is not intended to target five year olds but makes no exemption.” All based in some truth, but with heaps of editorializing on top of it.
I'm calling bullshit on this now. You are claiming to have quoted me (you didn't actually quote anything) as saying something I never said to begin with and then are insisting on arguing with me about it. Go back and take a look for yourself. You look completely ridiculous now. The post that started this off was this:
On February 17 2018 03:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 02:59 Velr wrote: How does that make my statement untrue?
Ypu accept your children beong shot in school because freedom. Its disgusting. You’re making a hero’s effort proving you aren’t coming for the guns, you’re in favor of common sense gun regulation. The problem is “freedom.” “It’s disgusting.” Plansix/JockMcPlop later on ... ... nobody’s demonizing gun owners and nobody going to take away your guns. The real problem is the NRA.
That's not a quote, it only half alludes to something I actually said, and its not the basis for the made up thing you then went on to rant at me about.
Get yourself together man.
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On February 17 2018 05:10 Nebuchad wrote: It's really important to continue to frame this as a politician problem rather than a topic of debates and discussions, and I wish more people understood that. So much effort is spent talking to people like Danglars or superstat as if they were ever going to give in or be convinced of anything, or worse, as if what was needed for some non-insane gun control was to convince people like them. It just takes a few days of deafness and inaction and we're back in the cycle of nothing until the next one. We have limited windows and we should use them to have the conversations that matter. The only benefit to these discussions at least provide a counter argument to the “the left made us support the NRA, who listens to us nicely” argument. No minds will be changed here today.
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On February 17 2018 05:10 Nebuchad wrote: It's really important to continue to frame this as a politician problem rather than a topic of debates and discussions, and I wish more people understood that. So much effort is spent talking to people like Danglars or superstat as if they were ever going to give in or be convinced of anything, or worse, as if what was needed for some non-insane gun control was to convince people like them. It just takes a few days of deafness and inaction and we're back in the cycle of nothing until the next one. We have limited windows and we should use them to have the conversations that matter. so which conversation is it that you want to have? I mean, I get where you're coming from I think; I'm just not sure what you actually expect/want to happen from a conversation.
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On February 17 2018 05:10 Nebuchad wrote: It's really important to continue to frame this as a politician problem rather than a topic of debates and discussions, and I wish more people understood that. So much effort is spent talking to people like Danglars or superstat as if they were ever going to give in or be convinced of anything, or worse, as if what was needed for some non-insane gun control was to convince people like them. It just takes a few days of deafness and inaction and we're back in the cycle of nothing until the next one. We have limited windows and we should use them to have the conversations that matter. Realizing that it’s more than just politicians would be a fine start to fixing the problem.
If it’s between blaming politicians (or the NRA for that matter) and fixing the problem, I’m gathering you are firmly in the blame game.
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On February 17 2018 04:45 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 03:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:There's nothing unique about USA compared to the rich world other than gun controls, or lack thereof. It was you who wrote: On February 17 2018 02:48 superstartran wrote:
The statistics you listed bear no meaning to the unique situation of the United States of America. You cannot compare a highly homogeneous country like Japan to the United States; the areas where gun violence is most prevalent in the United States also happens to be where gun laws are incredibly strict such as Chicago, Baltimore, etc. predominantly in urban neighborhoods and predominantly among blacks.
But hey man, going with your logic that must mean blacks are violent people right? See, this is why you can't just throw out statistics on a whim without controlling for populations.
with the direct implication that the "unique" situation of USA is that blacks are responsible for the high gun violence in USA. There is no way other way to take it. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. So currently your train of thought is: USA is in a unique situation in regard to its high gun crime. USA is unique not because of it's unique lack of effective gun controls. USA is unique becuase its population is not homogenous. Gun crime occur predominantly among blacks. Then "But hey man, going with your logic that must mean blacks are violent people right?" You claim to be asking for controlling for ethnic population, wealth, but quite honestly I don't see what ethnic population has to do with anything unless you are saying that ethnic population (whatever that means in this context) is responsible for your perception that gun controls are ineffective in USA. Do different ethnic groups have different abilities to purchase guns? But hey man, going with your logic white people simply more predisposed towards school shootings and Vegas shootings right? But Rofl don't take this out of statement out of context. The point I was making is that if you don't control for things such as ethnic population, wealth, and various other different factors you can make any assumption you want. It's a statistical fact that whites on average commit far more school shootings and Vegas shootings in the United States than any other ethnic group in the United States. Going by the logic you guys are using, that would make white people predisposed towards shooting school children and concertgoers , when you and I know both know that's a load of horse shit, and that there are way more factors then simple numbers. So basically you came around and agreed that all those statistics trying to cross compare a homogeneous country vs a heterogeneous country is basically bullshit. Ok. Glad we are in agreement. Also it's incredibly disingenuous to believe that the United States and Japan are basically the same countries with the same culture. You know, just typing something doesn't make it true. At no point did I particularily agree with you on anything. Though truly, there does seem to be a preponderence of white people who like to shoot at school children and concertgoers in USA. It is interesting that for whatever reason you decided to hone in on ethnicity and urban centres. I live in London which has a large non-white population. I would say of the top of my head London is 60% white. It is both urban and has parts of mostly black population. There was a large gun crime problem, mostly with handguns as opposed to rifles, but effective gun legislation reduced the murder rate significantly. So, in your desperate search for reasons as to why USA is unique, you cast around casting claiming that both ethnicity is and isn't a factor. Well done.
Lastly at no point did I equate American culture with Japanese culture. But interestingly you didn't bring up culture as a reason as to why there are so many school shootings in USA, when it is obvious that the school shooting gun culture in USA IS a cultural problem. Perhaps that should be food for thought for you, but I fear it is wasted on a person who just simply makes up what someone else has written. It appears to be a common theme with you and so I fear, that rather sadly, discussion with you is largely pointless.
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On February 17 2018 05:42 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 05:10 Nebuchad wrote: It's really important to continue to frame this as a politician problem rather than a topic of debates and discussions, and I wish more people understood that. So much effort is spent talking to people like Danglars or superstat as if they were ever going to give in or be convinced of anything, or worse, as if what was needed for some non-insane gun control was to convince people like them. It just takes a few days of deafness and inaction and we're back in the cycle of nothing until the next one. We have limited windows and we should use them to have the conversations that matter. so which conversation is it that you want to have? I mean, I get where you're coming from I think; I'm just not sure what you actually expect/want to happen from a conversation.
The only conversation that matters is the one about how politicians get to ignore the will of a large majority of the country, the role of money and legalized bribery in shaping those opinions vs the will of the people.
None of the other conversations lead to an improved situation and having them dilutes the strength of the message.
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On February 17 2018 05:40 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 05:34 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 04:56 Jockmcplop wrote: Danglars can I ask what it is you think you have quoted me as saying? The only thing I said is that the biggest problem is the lack of movement towards gun control from politicians. I didn't originally blame anyone or act in a partisan way. I stick by that, because I'm no fan of the democrats or the republicans really, or the system in the US that allows lobbyists such as the NRA such incredible power over something they have a vested interest in that is so important for public safety. You may refer to the actual posts that quote you. I don’t know if you’re misremembering now or never read and only skimmed my posts. It matters little to me if you do or don’t, or even care about consistency. Also curious if you read analytically into news stories, like “powerful this group” and “victim of Republican infighting” and “politically potent.” The one I read on the issue made it out to be just the opposite “jailing kids as young as kindergarteners” and “is not intended to target five year olds but makes no exemption.” All based in some truth, but with heaps of editorializing on top of it. I'm calling bullshit on this now. You are claiming to have quoted me (you didn't actually quote anything) as saying something I never said to begin with and then are insisting on arguing with me about it. Go back and take a look for yourself. You look completely ridiculous now. The post that started this off was this: Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 03:07 Danglars wrote:On February 17 2018 02:59 Velr wrote: How does that make my statement untrue?
Ypu accept your children beong shot in school because freedom. Its disgusting. You’re making a hero’s effort proving you aren’t coming for the guns, you’re in favor of common sense gun regulation. The problem is “freedom.” “It’s disgusting.” Plansix/JockMcPlop later on ... ... nobody’s demonizing gun owners and nobody going to take away your guns. The real problem is the NRA. That's not a quote, it only half alludes to something I actually said, and its not the basis for the made up thing you then went on to rant at me about. Get yourself together man. You might want to spend more than two seconds on this. I quote your response to superstartran and compare it with a response to me a little later on. It has quotation marks. I don’t really see any purpose in continuing with a guy that won’t stand for anything he says, like the truth for him changes with the pages of the calendar. It’s gun control from the left and we’re frankly used to this behavior.
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On February 17 2018 05:48 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2018 04:45 superstartran wrote:On February 17 2018 03:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:There's nothing unique about USA compared to the rich world other than gun controls, or lack thereof. It was you who wrote: On February 17 2018 02:48 superstartran wrote:
The statistics you listed bear no meaning to the unique situation of the United States of America. You cannot compare a highly homogeneous country like Japan to the United States; the areas where gun violence is most prevalent in the United States also happens to be where gun laws are incredibly strict such as Chicago, Baltimore, etc. predominantly in urban neighborhoods and predominantly among blacks.
But hey man, going with your logic that must mean blacks are violent people right? See, this is why you can't just throw out statistics on a whim without controlling for populations.
with the direct implication that the "unique" situation of USA is that blacks are responsible for the high gun violence in USA. There is no way other way to take it. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. So currently your train of thought is: USA is in a unique situation in regard to its high gun crime. USA is unique not because of it's unique lack of effective gun controls. USA is unique becuase its population is not homogenous. Gun crime occur predominantly among blacks. Then "But hey man, going with your logic that must mean blacks are violent people right?" You claim to be asking for controlling for ethnic population, wealth, but quite honestly I don't see what ethnic population has to do with anything unless you are saying that ethnic population (whatever that means in this context) is responsible for your perception that gun controls are ineffective in USA. Do different ethnic groups have different abilities to purchase guns? But hey man, going with your logic white people simply more predisposed towards school shootings and Vegas shootings right? But Rofl don't take this out of statement out of context. The point I was making is that if you don't control for things such as ethnic population, wealth, and various other different factors you can make any assumption you want. It's a statistical fact that whites on average commit far more school shootings and Vegas shootings in the United States than any other ethnic group in the United States. Going by the logic you guys are using, that would make white people predisposed towards shooting school children and concertgoers , when you and I know both know that's a load of horse shit, and that there are way more factors then simple numbers. So basically you came around and agreed that all those statistics trying to cross compare a homogeneous country vs a heterogeneous country is basically bullshit. Ok. Glad we are in agreement. Also it's incredibly disingenuous to believe that the United States and Japan are basically the same countries with the same culture. You know, just typing something doesn't make it true. At no point did I particularily agree with you on anything. Though truly, there does seem to be a preponderence of white people who like to shoot at school children and concertgoers in USA. It is interesting that for whatever reason you decided to hone in on ethnicity and urban centres. I live in London which has a large non-white population. I would say of the top of my head London is 60% white. It is both urban and has parts of mostly black population. There was a large gun crime problem, mostly with handguns as opposed to rifles, but effective gun legislation reduced the murder rate significantly. So, in your desperate search for reasons as to why USA is unique, you cast around casting claiming that both ethnicity is and isn't a factor. Well done. Lastly at no point did I equate American culture with Japanese culture. But interestingly you didn't bring up culture as a reason as to why there are so many school shootings in USA, when it is obvious that the school shooting gun culture in USA IS a cultural problem. Perhaps that should be food for thought for you, but I fear it is wasted on a person who just simply makes up what someone else has written. It appears to be a common theme with you and so I fear, that rather sadly, discussion with you is largely pointless.
So you're saying that blacks in urban centers and the Mississippi delta area are of literally equal social/economic status as those in London? Because that's what you're getting at. Which would be pathetically laughable at best.
The United States has a much more unique culture than many other countries because of the rapid development of the country. If you seriously think that the U.K., Australia, and other European countries have similar populations/geographic sizes/other confounding factors such as the United States I'm not really sure what to tell you. Just because gun control laws appear to work in the U.K. and Australia does not mean they will work in the United States, which is why I always laugh when people try to say "XYZ country has less deaths, how come the U.S. isn't doing the same thing."
It's just like how I probably wouldn't be handing out guns to every single person like Switzerland does. Switzerland has one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, and yes they have relatively strict gun requirements/laws also. Yet they also have almost zero fire arm related crimes, despite the fact that they have such a high number of firearms in their country. That being said, what works in Switzerland will not necessarily work in another country like say Brazil because of the cultural and socioeconomic problems that are in that country.
Point? Every single situation is unique, and you can't just cross compare countries and say "Well xyz country makes similar money, how come you can't just copy them." Because if you're going to do that, I'm merely just going to point to Switzerland pretty much every single time.
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