H.O.T.K.E.Y.s is live, what are you changing? - Page 6
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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ReTr0[p.S]
Argentina1590 Posts
On July 28 2017 00:05 B-royal wrote: This will just be a small unstructured rant because I know the re-assignable hotkeys are here to stay. Let me say beforehand though, I don't care about this in lower leagues. I'm only concerned about semi-professional and professional play. ... ... 1. I can't find any evidence at all that professional Korean tournaments allowed anything other than English legacy keys on a QWERTY type of keyboard. 2. People that have been using custom hotkeys already, are cheaters. Pretty funny trying to use cheaters as a way to justify hotkey rebinding. Would be akin to just forcing everyone to accept steroids or doping in physical sports because cheaters are using it. I think if all players have access to these tools, then there is no advantage one player can have over another. The same way people copy build orders, hotkey bindings will be copied until an optimal one is set and becomes the new standard. If anything, one could argue this adds a new perspective into the competitive game, as hotkeys start to get studied to gain a few ms advantages, much like the building placement or the drone gas trick did a few years ago. Hell, you could even argue that Protosses have been at a disadvantage all these years compared to the SCV "S' or Drone "D" hotkeys. By following your logic, we should only allow one mouse model and one keyboard model, as it's the only way to make sure there's no advantages from some one person with better hardware than someone without. | ||
Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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jehlakj
23 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:11 ReTr0[p.S] wrote: I think if all players have access to these tools, then there is no advantage one player can have over another. The same way people copy build orders, hotkey bindings will be copied until an optimal one is set and becomes the new standard. If anything, one could argue this adds a new perspective into the competitive game, as hotkeys start to get studied to gain a few ms advantages, much like the building placement or the drone gas trick did a few years ago. Hell, you could even argue that Protosses have been at a disadvantage all these years compared to the SCV "S' or Drone "D" hotkeys. By following your logic, we should only allow one mouse model and one keyboard model, as it's the only way to make sure there's no advantages from some one person with better hardware than someone without. As I mentioned before, custom hotkeys are significant. More than most people realize. It's not as simple as pressing P to build a pylon. It's how you have to dereference your default hand position to press B then P. Sure, pressing B with your pointer finger is easy enough. But to do it with your pinky takes a little more practice. This sort of variance yields more different coordinations than with an efficient custom hotkey setup. And this is only a single example out of many combinations. For this reason, I doubt professional tournaments will allow custom hotkeys any time soon. It may eventually make its way in, but it's going to take a while. Especially when we're talking about Koreans. They're generally extremely traditional even with the tiniest of details. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:37 jehlakj wrote: And yet, everyone on fish has custom hotkeys enabled, and every pro whos commented on customizable hotkeys have come out strongly in favour...hmmmm....As I mentioned before, custom hotkeys are significant. More than most people realize. It's not as simple as pressing P to build a pylon. It's how you have to dereference your default hand position to press B then P. Sure, pressing B with your pointer finger is easy enough. But to do it with your pinky takes a little more practice. This sort of variance yields more different coordinations than with an efficient custom hotkey setup. And this is only a single example out of many combinations. For this reason, I doubt professional tournaments will allow custom hotkeys any time soon. It may eventually make its way in, but it's going to take a while. Especially when we're talking about Koreans. They're generally extremely traditional even with the tiniest of details. | ||
LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
Sc is not rhythm game like osu, ddr, etc. U dont always need to get those marvelous, perfect combo and stuff in sc. Based on my experience from every game, i noticed koreans barely change their hotkeys for sc2 and lol both games. I know in foreign lol community was also saying smart cast and quick cast are way better, but koreans never used it in lol. They prefer manual cast as their primary keys and smart and quick cast for their secondary. In lol season 3, people were all gone crazy about insec kick and better to do that combo with quick/smart cast like 3 (for putting down a ward) w (dashing to the ward) and r ( for kick). If u can feel that way is easier for you to do the combo, good for you. But its not gonna improve your game knowledge. And its a strategy game. Situation always will be different. | ||
jehlakj
23 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:48 Dazed. wrote: And yet, everyone on fish has custom hotkeys enabled, and every pro whos commented on customizable hotkeys have come out strongly in favour...hmmmm.... You bring up some good points, but our arguments are at most speculations. We'll just have to wait and see how tournaments will handle this. I'm actually in favor of custom hotkeys, so I hope I'm wrong. | ||
KrOjah
United Kingdom68 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On July 28 2017 00:41 Dazed. wrote: Different languages= different hotkey setups, that has been established since release. You've always been playing with different tools, you were just ignorant [and your relatively new to the scene] about it. People also used custom hotkeys, and while you can call them cheaters, plenty of tournaments do not and have not for decades. If theres an optimal way of using hotkeys that can actually differentiate players, people will simply migrate naturally to that tool set, which means, eventually, you will not be playing with different tools. Thats that. Your entire argument, done. No, but thanks for trying. 1. Different languages =/ custom hotkeys. Custom hotkeys means assigning each spell, building, unit, function,... to whatever key you want. A different language is just a different set-up than the English one but it still has its own limitations. 2. People using custom hotkeys are cheaters, pretty simple. No custom hotkeys nor different language set-ups were ever used at the peak of the competition, which is Korean professional tournaments. I don't care about crappy foreigner tournaments. 3. There will be at minimum 3 sets of optimal hotkeys, one for each race because the races have different requirements (comSat stations to give an example). Of course other factors such as someone's hand span will also influence how many setups there will be (0sz, not particularly an easy feat to execute). A precedent for this is of course that even now, you have zergs such as jaedong that don't even use 9-0 and have their main hatchery on 4, whereas tons of others have their main on 5 and use all 10 hotkeys. More importantly, what is your point with this? People won't migrate naturally to one tool set because it requires a great deal of knowledge to figure out the optimal set-up. Besides people will always have personal preferences. And when someone competitive finds it, he won't just share it with everyone, and especially not willingly. 4. The time between someone figuring out a perfect set-up could be years, and it would take even more time for everyone to start using it. Meanwhile this period of time until this hypothetical milestone is reached, would of course be a period where everyone is playing with different tools. So again nice try, but you argumentation is completely flawed. On July 28 2017 02:48 Dazed. wrote: And yet, everyone on fish has custom hotkeys enabled, and every pro whos commented on customizable hotkeys have come out strongly in favour...hmmmm.... No. 1. Custom hotkeys enabled is the default setting. 2. How did you gather all this data? Funny because when I log into the Fish ladder channel, all I see are >C rank players still asking for games on 1.16. A ton of koreans are still playing 1.16 but I won't speak for them. A few critical weeks are coming up, and soon we will know what their stance is. 3. What about all the pro's who haven't commented? Do you presume to know their opinion as well? 4. All I remember is them saying they don't care about it and currently believe it will not affect gameplay. If that turns out true, great. Then I can stop worrying about it as well, and I won't care. If they did "come out strongly in favour of it" please support this with evidence such as actual footage or translations from someone reputable and reliable. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3261 Posts
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ReTr0[p.S]
Argentina1590 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:20 Endymion wrote: so if blizzard added integrated map hacks for both players it would be okay because both players had the same advantage? the point is that it makes the game easier and makes 1.19 an inferior version of the game compared to 1.16.1 because there's less mechanical stress on each player for whatever race they play, making the game easier to play and shifting the focus away from mechanics to """"""game strategy"""""". as far as i'm concerned, 1.19 isn't even broodwar anymore until hotkey rebinding is patched out Yes, if blizzard removed the fog of war for all players it would be the same advantage, the same way if blizzard decided to start everyone with 10000 minerals, make all workers mine 2x as fast etc, nobody would be put at an advantage, and it wouldn't be making the game easier, BECAUSE EVERYONE WOULD HAVE THOSE SAME rules, but the game would be a shitty game indeed. But key rebinding? You're talking about a disadvantage that's being given the choice to be fixed. SCV is S, Drone is D, but Probe is all the way to the right of the keyboard, that's a flaw that I guess Blizzard never took into account when the game came out 20 years ago. The change in mechanics is minuscule, and it won't take the focus away from the mechanics one bit, those buttons still need to be pressed. It might make pressing the buttons easier, but if everyone can do that then the game doesn't become any easier at all. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: Keep the childish snippyness out of the forum please.No, but thanks for trying. On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: Every setup has its limitations, what an insipid point to make. There are still advantages and disadvantages between each keyboard setup, and they are not even. Competitive disadvantages exist in that sense.1. Different languages =/ custom hotkeys. Custom hotkeys means assigning each spell, building, unit, function,... to whatever key you want. A different language is just a different set-up than the English one but it still has its own limitations. On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: Ok, black and white thinking. Why?2. People using custom hotkeys are cheaters, pretty simple. No custom hotkeys nor different language set-ups were ever used at the peak of the competition, which is Korean professional tournaments. I don't care about crappy foreigner tournaments. On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: ...So?3. There will be at minimum 3 sets of optimal hotkeys, one for each race because the races have different requirements (comSat stations to give an example). Of course other factors such as someone's hand span will also influence how many setups there will be (0sz, not particularly an easy feat to execute). A precedent for this is of course that even now, you have zergs such as jaedong that don't even use 9-0 and have their main hatchery on 4, whereas tons of others have their main on 5 and use all 10 hotkeys. On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: Like people wont migrate to optimal build orders because it requires knowledge? Oh wait...More importantly, what is your point with this? People won't migrate naturally to one tool set because it requires a great deal of knowledge to figure out the optimal set-up. On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: Besides people will always have personal preferences. If your only concerned with "the height of competition" and not the scene itself, personal preference will take a back seat to "the height of competition" will it not? So which is it? Are you concerned only with pros or the scene itself? On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: And when someone competitive finds it, he won't just share it with everyone, and especially not willingly. Wtf? We have streams, we have bw chart, we have word of mouth...how in the hell do you think hotkey setups will remain a secret? You already mentioned jaedongs hotkey set up...because its known. All the pros hotkey setups are known, we can literally figure out smurfs in five minutes flat just by their hotkey setups. Your not even consistent line to line. On July 28 2017 03:03 B-royal wrote: It could be years, it could be days, but the rate of transmission between someone having a better setup [such that it is accruing them victories at an appreciable rate] will be very quick "at the height of competition". Which is why we've seen, and will continue to see, such rapid changes in the meta and simple mechanical procedures. Every advantage counts, and if it counts, people will notice. Analysis and all that.4. The time between someone figuring out a perfect set-up could be years, and it would take even more time for everyone to start using it. Basically your argument amounts to: I dont care about anyone but the pros, and this could influence game balance but not in a way people will notice or be able to copy for ages. What? | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:20 Endymion wrote: so if blizzard added integrated map hacks for both players it would be okay because both players had the same advantage? the point is that it makes the game easier and makes 1.19 an inferior version of the game compared to 1.16.1 because there's less mechanical stress on each player for whatever race they play, making the game easier to play and shifting the focus away from mechanics to """"""game strategy"""""". as far as i'm concerned, 1.19 isn't even broodwar anymore until hotkey rebinding is patched out lol, the people who have learned the non-custom hotkeys are sure salty about losing their "special status" and the efforts put into mastering it. but it's hella selfish to want to remove custom hotkeys when it is one of the biggest factors in drawing in new blood and former players. just so you can have your P for Probe, you are willing to destroy something that is arguably revitalizing the game? What great fans. | ||
mOnion
United States5651 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:20 Endymion wrote: so if blizzard added integrated map hacks for both players it would be okay because both players had the same advantage? the point is that it makes the game easier and makes 1.19 an inferior version of the game compared to 1.16.1 because there's less mechanical stress on each player for whatever race they play, making the game easier to play and shifting the focus away from mechanics to """"""game strategy"""""". as far as i'm concerned, 1.19 isn't even broodwar anymore until hotkey rebinding is patched out What? You honestly believe that changing hotkeys is going to all of a sudden improve a players macro? Sorry, if some player is always floating 2k minerals 10 minutes into the game, changing hotkeys isn't going to change that. It doesn't even make the game easier. I wouldn't be surprised if most Korean pro's don't change their hotkeys due to it being second nature. If Flash/Jaedong/effort/reach/etc changed their hotkeys, they aren't going to suddenly improve. They will be at the same exact skill level as before. This elitism is just sad that you think it's going to change the game or make something imbalanced. "Not even broodwar anymore until hotkey rebinding is patched out." Are you serious? lol that is the stupidest thing I have ever read. The game is going to be played the exact same as before. The micro, macro is the same. I don't know why I replied to this, but this post is just an insane mindset and blows my mind. | ||
vonccc
5 Posts
This really seems like something that should be left alone. I mean, Blizzard had the presence of mind to not allow control group and camera location hotkey remaps. Why didn't they see the damage in allowing any hotkey remaping? | ||
lestye
United States4131 Posts
On July 28 2017 08:42 vonccc wrote: Won't the remapable hotkeys break the game? All of a sudden it's easy to vulture patrol micro while macroing at the same time. All of a sudden tank pushes got a lot easier. This really seems like something that should be left alone. I mean, Blizzard had the presence of mind to not allow control group and camera location hotkey remaps. Why didn't they see the damage in allowing any hotkey remaping? I think for the most part camera rekeybinds won't make a difference. It's just patrol that might be a balance concern. I believe it's out, or soon to be ou in PCBangs, so we should get lots and lots of new if it really breaks the game before worldwide launch. | ||
jehlakj
23 Posts
On July 28 2017 08:42 vonccc wrote: Won't the remapable hotkeys break the game? All of a sudden it's easy to vulture patrol micro while macroing at the same time. All of a sudden tank pushes got a lot easier. This really seems like something that should be left alone. I mean, Blizzard had the presence of mind to not allow control group and camera location hotkey remaps. Why didn't they see the damage in allowing any hotkey remaping? I think they did--hence it's optional to host non-custom hotkey games. They already foresee a balance issue with control groups and cameras, so they decided not to make them custom. This brings up an interesting point because one could argue that custom hotkeys don't make much of a difference, so why should control groups be any different? They're essentially just hotkeys to perform certain tasks, right? So yeah, blizz does care about this to a degree. But there's something greater that I see in their decision to make them optional. There's a huge difference between "Eat this hamburger right now" and "Would you like a hamburger?" in how people receive it. Maybe blizz knows that custom hotkeys is the answer, but forcing it, or any other mechanical changes, on us would give it a bad rep. But by introducing it as an option, we're more likely to agree that's it's the better choice. I see you, blizz | ||
Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On July 28 2017 02:20 Endymion wrote: so if blizzard added integrated map hacks for both players it would be okay because both players had the same advantage? the point is that it makes the game easier and makes 1.19 an inferior version of the game compared to 1.16.1 because there's less mechanical stress on each player for whatever race they play, making the game easier to play and shifting the focus away from mechanics to """"""game strategy"""""". as far as i'm concerned, 1.19 isn't even broodwar anymore until hotkey rebinding is patched out And death to all heretics !!! Lol, what did I just read ? :D | ||
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