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United States1302 Posts
A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game!
Game can be found here
1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower?
2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army?
4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's?
5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army?
6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY?
7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much?
8) Other thoughts about the game? :D
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if youre going to cast dont spoil stuff that happens 5 minutes before they happen
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Sweden33719 Posts
Analysis isn't casting, don't think spoilers matter.
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United States1302 Posts
On December 19 2015 08:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Analysis isn't casting, don't think spoilers matter. That was my line of thought as well
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Sweden33719 Posts
Enjoyed it btw, don't really watch much SC anymore but I like this format.
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I agree with the single forge even if HERO scouted the double ebay. If you go double forge against a terran that doesn't go for any heavy tech (liberators, cyclone), I find myself unable to hold up a defense, (since forge + upgrades is essentially 2-3 gateways of resources). Also, protoss has constant cronoboost so he shouldn't always be a full 2 sets of upgrades behind, more like ~1 upgrade behind.
Of course double forge would have been great, if he survived, I just think that the defense is too tricky, especially considering that HERO went stargate for oracles, (which further delays his ground army).
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United States1302 Posts
On December 19 2015 11:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Enjoyed it btw, don't really watch much SC anymore but I like this format. oooh thanks that means a lot
On December 19 2015 12:31 AkashSky wrote: I agree with the single forge even if HERO scouted the double ebay. If you go double forge against a terran that doesn't go for any heavy tech (liberators, cyclone), I find myself unable to hold up a defense, (since forge + upgrades is essentially 2-3 gateways of resources). Also, protoss has constant cronoboost so he shouldn't always be a full 2 sets of upgrades behind, more like ~1 upgrade behind.
Of course double forge would have been great, if he survived, I just think that the defense is too tricky, especially considering that HERO went stargate for oracles, (which further delays his ground army). So you think the oracle had negative benefits that impacted Hero?
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On December 19 2015 16:52 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 11:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Enjoyed it btw, don't really watch much SC anymore but I like this format. oooh thanks that means a lot Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 12:31 AkashSky wrote: I agree with the single forge even if HERO scouted the double ebay. If you go double forge against a terran that doesn't go for any heavy tech (liberators, cyclone), I find myself unable to hold up a defense, (since forge + upgrades is essentially 2-3 gateways of resources). Also, protoss has constant cronoboost so he shouldn't always be a full 2 sets of upgrades behind, more like ~1 upgrade behind.
Of course double forge would have been great, if he survived, I just think that the defense is too tricky, especially considering that HERO went stargate for oracles, (which further delays his ground army). So you think the oracle had negative benefits that impacted Hero?
The oracles are more so a stylistic choice, its not only a negative benefit but rather a trade off. Hero is trading needed tech like upgrades, robo, storm for a harrassing tech choice like a stargate, which isn't going to help him in a straight up engagement, but offers other benefits like map control.
Considering the trade off, going double forge while opening oracles seems too greedy to me, and would result in a tough defense of your third.
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On December 19 2015 03:15 EJK wrote:A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game! Game can be found here1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower? 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not? 3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army? 4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's? 5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army? 6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY? 7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? 8) Other thoughts about the game? :D
I recently had a discussion with a friend about this game, and will try to explain my views the best I can through text,
On maps like orbital putting pressure on the protoss on the early game is ridiculously hard. Either you have to do widow mine drops or do liberator related pressure, both of which makes killing the protoss nearly impossible (unless you go for window mine -> tank but I doubt its a solid build). However since imo early/mid game liberator pressure is quite easy to hold with pylon placement and is really bad vs phoenix into fast 3 nexus the only option to gain a slight advantage that isn't dependent on the opponent making mistakes is doing the fast 3 cc build TY did.
To be safe with 3cc you need the most amount of units can, or atleast you can not skip alot of marines and rush for a lot of liberators early on, this will just straight up die to a 6+ gate adept drop (even with a cylcone). So you kinda have to wait till you get to that mid game where you get all your options.
At this point we have arrived at the mid game where TY has 5 rax, 2 sp 1 reactored fac making widow mines, and hero has his 4base, here you'll see TY try to make an opening for his liberator + medivac drop by constantly attacking the 4th with small amount of units and try to get a hold of the location near the 4th with the rocks on hero's side of the map. This takes a few tries but as soon as he gets the opening he drops the 3th. This was made possible by the liberators in his nat and the squad of mm to the 4th.
After the drop has been scared of (3 medivacs of marines survive) hero tries to find a way to attack but is impossable because of the liberators, then ty takes his 5th and hero is feels the pressure more and more to attack, increasing the importance of not splitting up his army so I think the liberator upg timing is a good way of retaining his pressure.
So to go back on your points,
3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army?
No, since TY was passive for so long and it didn't matter in the early game, and in the mid to late game he can't engage into liberators, or chase the medivacs of ty so a stronger army for anything but defending ty was a bit of a waste.
5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army?
Yes, when the opponent has liberators with range the only way to defend is through air, so that leaves you with phoenix, voidray or tempest (I have no clue how carriers would work) but phoenix do bad vs big number of liberators, and have no use besides clearing them they feel a bit of a waste, compared to a tempest that also gives you a very strong pushing power. voidrays are more effective than phoenix but still nowhere near as good as tempest because of the range.
2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
Cannons? 7)Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? Mines are good, but feel to much likes static D vs the army hero went, vs zealots it would be a good army additions I think.
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United States1302 Posts
On December 20 2015 22:26 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 03:15 EJK wrote:A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game! Game can be found here1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower? 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not? 3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army? 4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's? 5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army? 6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY? 7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? 8) Other thoughts about the game? :D 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
Cannons? what about gateways and additional warp prisms?
On December 20 2015 20:59 AkashSky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 16:52 EJK wrote:On December 19 2015 11:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Enjoyed it btw, don't really watch much SC anymore but I like this format. oooh thanks that means a lot On December 19 2015 12:31 AkashSky wrote: I agree with the single forge even if HERO scouted the double ebay. If you go double forge against a terran that doesn't go for any heavy tech (liberators, cyclone), I find myself unable to hold up a defense, (since forge + upgrades is essentially 2-3 gateways of resources). Also, protoss has constant cronoboost so he shouldn't always be a full 2 sets of upgrades behind, more like ~1 upgrade behind.
Of course double forge would have been great, if he survived, I just think that the defense is too tricky, especially considering that HERO went stargate for oracles, (which further delays his ground army). So you think the oracle had negative benefits that impacted Hero? The oracles are more so a stylistic choice, its not only a negative benefit but rather a trade off. Hero is trading needed tech like upgrades, robo, storm for a harrassing tech choice like a stargate, which isn't going to help him in a straight up engagement, but offers other benefits like map control. Considering the trade off, going double forge while opening oracles seems too greedy to me, and would result in a tough defense of your third. nicely put!
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On December 20 2015 23:42 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 22:26 sabas123 wrote:On December 19 2015 03:15 EJK wrote:A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game! Game can be found here1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower? 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not? 3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army? 4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's? 5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army? 6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY? 7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? 8) Other thoughts about the game? :D 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
Cannons? what about gateways and additional warp prisms Both take up alot of supply.
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United States1302 Posts
On December 21 2015 00:07 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2015 23:42 EJK wrote:On December 20 2015 22:26 sabas123 wrote:On December 19 2015 03:15 EJK wrote:A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game! Game can be found here1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower? 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not? 3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army? 4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's? 5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army? 6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY? 7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? 8) Other thoughts about the game? :D 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
Cannons? what about gateways and additional warp prisms Both take up alot of supply. so you want static defense because it is more supply effecient? so you can safely tech better to tempest?
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On December 21 2015 00:32 EJK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 00:07 sabas123 wrote:On December 20 2015 23:42 EJK wrote:On December 20 2015 22:26 sabas123 wrote:On December 19 2015 03:15 EJK wrote:A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game! Game can be found here1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower? 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not? 3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army? 4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's? 5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army? 6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY? 7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? 8) Other thoughts about the game? :D 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
Cannons? what about gateways and additional warp prisms Both take up alot of supply. so you want static defense because it is more supply effecient? so you can safely tech better to tempest? The most important is that you don't get out of possition by having to split up units.
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United States1302 Posts
On December 21 2015 01:10 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2015 00:32 EJK wrote:On December 21 2015 00:07 sabas123 wrote:On December 20 2015 23:42 EJK wrote:On December 20 2015 22:26 sabas123 wrote:On December 19 2015 03:15 EJK wrote:A great macro game played in gsl pre qualifiers earlier this week, and here are some discussion questions about the game! Game can be found here1) Was TY's liberator upgrade timing good? Should it come faster, should it come slower? 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not? 3) Would double forge upgrades have bolstered Hero's gateway army? 4) Double warp prism drop later on by hero? What about more usage of DT's? 5) Did hero make the right choice teching into Tempest's for his army composition against Ty's bio ghost liberator army? 6) What timings exist before/after the bio ghost liberator army comes out for TY? 7) Should widow mines be added into the terran mix to assist with drops and agression? Do they slow down the liberator production too much? 8) Other thoughts about the game? :D 2) What could have hero used his excess minerals for, do you agree with the 4th base expansion location? Why, why not?
Cannons? what about gateways and additional warp prisms Both take up alot of supply. so you want static defense because it is more supply effecient? so you can safely tech better to tempest? The most important is that you don't get out of possition by having to split up units. If that was the most important, shouldn't hero have taken the more defensive 4th base that is closer to your other bases and easier to defend?
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