I had a memorable game where this terran was just incredibly patient with completing his ideal army (yes of MMMM+Liberator), even giving up his main and nat with all the supply depots, but once he was ready he marched and levelled my 4 bases and everything I threw against it bounced off like flies.
TvP Adept play - Page 3
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moofang
508 Posts
I had a memorable game where this terran was just incredibly patient with completing his ideal army (yes of MMMM+Liberator), even giving up his main and nat with all the supply depots, but once he was ready he marched and levelled my 4 bases and everything I threw against it bounced off like flies. | ||
CheddarToss
534 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 20 2015 22:08 [PkF] Wire wrote: Indeed. I hope they don't let the warp prism be imbalanced for sake of having P playing a more offensive style. The warp prism, if it is to stay as it is, is broken, and should have one or two of the following : 1- robo bay requirement 2- gas cost 3- energy based warp-ins (so that you can't make 15 zealots appear out of thin air in 2 freakin seconds too easily) Energy based warp-ins sound really interesting to me. Something like each warp in costing 5 or 10 energy (depending how you want to balance it), and once the energy is drained, it reverts to 15 second warp ins (which I imagine will be buffed at some point to like 10 or 12 second warp ins). | ||
jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
What my personal hope is is that they let it be available after Cybercore and give it an upgrade that gives it either a Mutalisk kinda bounce (to deal with stimmed/medivac bio) and Roach/Hydra comps and gives Gateway armies some firepower when the mid game kind of makes Gateway only comps suffer a bit. It should be a mid game bruiser unit for Protoss. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20172 Posts
The Prism/Adept attack cannot be held without rushing out a Cyclone, and even then it's dicey. That's not true and if it was, it would be a prism problem, not adept problem. Prism 6 range pickup and 2 sec warp are too powerful together. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On September 21 2015 03:35 jpg06051992 wrote: Adept gonna be changed up soon I'm sure, it's not an issue vs, Zerg but it kinda sucks in PvP and of course beats up Marines pretty handily. What my personal hope is is that they let it be available after Cybercore and give it an upgrade that gives it either a Mutalisk kinda bounce (to deal with stimmed/medivac bio) and Roach/Hydra comps and gives Gateway armies some firepower when the mid game kind of makes Gateway only comps suffer a bit. It should be a mid game bruiser unit for Protoss. that was the idea at the beginning. I'd rather have it less tanky but do that bounce after kill damage again (with an upgrade), that was a pretty interesting idea. | ||
CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 21 2015 04:29 [PkF] Wire wrote: that was the idea at the beginning. I'd rather have it less tanky but do that bounce after kill damage again (with an upgrade), that was a pretty interesting idea. Either that or let it scale much better with upgrades. +2/+2 could make it more viable in the late game. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:24 CheddarToss wrote: Either that or let it scale much better with upgrades. +2/+2 could make it more viable in the late game. yeah this could be good too. I agree the unit feels like a great addition to gateway armies, but it's just that tiny bit too strong early on in conjuction with the warp prism... It wouldn't need much to be really good... | ||
CheddarToss
534 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:33 CheddarToss wrote: On second thought I would prefer better scaling with upgrades, because the bounce shot has no counterplay, while the current shield upgrade can be mitigated by EMP. Higher shield than health value also allows for P players to retreat and start harassing again, after the shields have regenerated. Both make the unit more interesting and skill oriented. as it was bounce shot only worked when the adept killed an unit, which allowed cute interactions imo. | ||
CheddarToss
534 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:35 [PkF] Wire wrote: as it was bounce shot only worked when the adept killed an unit, which allowed cute interactions imo. Is there a video of that in action? I would like to see that. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:36 CheddarToss wrote: Is there a video of that in action? I would like to see that. Here you are | ||
TelecoM
United States10584 Posts
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
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Bohemond
United States163 Posts
You forgot to mention, that MorroW tried to hold this with CC first! At least that was the case, when I watched his stream a couple of days ago. I don't know whether he tried it with a more standard build. However, he did lose every single time while going CC first, which is what I would expect, against a build like Adept/WP. He spent a bunch of time trying a variety of builds. He spent several hours talking about it and playing custom games, watching replays of other players, etc... Get your head out of the sand. It is impossible to have enough units out to deal with it when it hits. The Cyclone only works since the last patch (it can kill the Prism now), before then, there were literally no builds to stop it (except staying on one base). And I'd like to point out, you can't scout effectively, so the door is opened to a whole host of other cheeses and abuses (whether they be aggressive cheeses, macro cheeses, or having the wall-in you are forced to make harassed). That's not true and if it was, it would be a prism problem, not adept problem. Prism 6 range pickup and 2 sec warp are too powerful together. Tell the OP what build order you know that no one else does that can effectively hold against the attack. He asked for a way to stop it, and you seem to be the only person in the world that knows how. Let us in on your secret. If you don't listen to what top players say, don't watch streams, and don't play the beta, why are you arguing? You obviously have no idea what the current situation is. | ||
knyttym
United States5797 Posts
1.) You have to produce marauders as early as possible. Figure out when is the safest you can start producing marauders and do so. 2.) If you move out with your army and you have less than 5 barracks, you must preemptively ring your bases with turrets. This was the mistake MMA/Bomber made at red bull vs Huk/MC. It's a mistake I know that QXC/Beastyqt would not have made because I copied this concept from their games. You can't move onto the map with 3 barracks like you did in HOTS. No a single viking doesn't work. No your reinforcements won't hold off the adept/warp prism. No you can't trade you harass against theirs. 3.) Marine/marauder/liberator/mine rules all Protoss armies excluding Carriers. This is very different from HOTS. Protoss had the power in the 120-200 supply areas of the game in WOL and HOTS. Terran has that strength in LOTV. This is not necessarily true if you are top20 GM in LOTV but for everyone else, Terran rules the mid late game. This means you can play significantly more defensive in LOTV and why putting up a ring of turrets in the mid game isn't such a bad idea. | ||
Edowyth
United States183 Posts
On September 21 2015 05:42 CheddarToss wrote: Hmmm, that looks rather fast. When I imagine a Bio vs Adept fight I find it hard to believe that a Terrann player could micro against that. Due to low health Marines would probably just melt. They didn't have to. The adepts, at that point, had so little health that standard MMM just kicked the crap out of them. The unit was squishier than marines (for cost) and had much lower damage output. AFAIK, no one was successfully using them for anything at all and the entire beta had stopped building them altogether by the time they were changed. I hated the "only bounce on death" thing too. It rather clearly makes the unit extremely hard to balance since it had 3 different numbers to balance ... two of which were only relevant upon last-hitting a unit ... and one of which was only relevant if there happened to be two other units in range for the ability to bounce-attack. What a complicated mess. As it is now, I don't really care if it's OP or not. The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss. If it does pay off, you win. Binary as heck. Protoss didn't need yet another binary early game tactic to depend upon to attempt to get ahead before the mid game. I wish the unit would receive a design change to make it an actual core unit that could be useful all-game-long without pidgeon-holing both sides. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On September 21 2015 06:42 Edowyth wrote: As it is now, I don't really care if it's OP or not. The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss. If it does pay off, you win. Binary as heck. Protoss didn't need yet another binary early game tactic to depend upon to attempt to get ahead before the mid game. I wish the unit would receive a design change to make it an actual core unit that could be useful all-game-long without pidgeon-holing both sides. I agree with that analysis. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20172 Posts
The unit is just turning into yet another blink-all-in type of unit which, if it doesn't pay off, leads directly to a loss It's being used offensively against greedy zergs (3hatch gasless vs a 2gate before nexus opening, that's just silly) because it's good in low numbers. It's not a problem offensively against terran if you take warp prism out of the picture. It's not that at all IMO. It's actually a very strong core unit for defense and making up a decent portion of your army (without being very weak, falling back to colossi/storm in order to do anything past the very early game). It's doesn't seem to be a problem on offense without WP. It's not like you can blob them and fight bio even in the midgame - when medivacs, ghosts and liberators come out and/or the supply count gets bigger they become much worse. And vs zerg? I'd never choose to enter a ground war with zerg at the moment and if i did, it probably wouldn't be adept heavy. It's simpler and safer to harass with half a dozen adepts then half a dozen phoenix's while expanding and making a carrier/VR army - lurkers and probably ravagers on the ground (as well as the threat of mutalisk) make adepts pretty terrible in the midgame without heavy support. | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
On September 21 2015 06:59 Cyro wrote: It's being used offensively against greedy zergs (3hatch gasless vs a 2gate before nexus opening, that's just silly) because it's good in low numbers. It's not a problem offensively against terran if you take warp prism out of the picture. It's not that at all IMO. It's actually a very strong core unit for defense and making up a decent portion of your army (without being very weak, falling back to colossi/storm in order to do anything past the very early game). It's doesn't seem to be a problem on offense without WP. the adept problem is definitely firstly an adept+WP problem so far, not so much of an adept problem it itself. | ||
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