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I feel like there are still things Terran can do to wound Protoss early - but it's more incremental damage, rather than game-ending damage. I mean medivacs were difficult for toss to defend before the speed boost. Polt, for instance, had success in PvT largely through reaper into mine drop in the king of the beta tourney.
Maybe that's awful now - but medivacs remain powerful at all junctures of the game.
And need I point out the abysmal protoss representation in Code S right now. If protoss's early game is so good, why are so many pros not succeeding with it?
Not that it matters, but I play Terran.
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On May 04 2013 03:51 Treehead wrote: I feel like there are still things Terran can do to wound Protoss early - but it's more incremental damage, rather than game-ending damage. I mean medivacs were difficult for toss to defend before the speed boost. Polt, for instance, had success in PvT largely through reaper into mine drop in the king of the beta tourney.
Maybe that's awful now - but medivacs remain powerful at all junctures of the game.
And need I point out the abysmal protoss representation in Code S right now. If protoss's early game is so good, why are so many pros not succeeding with it?
Not that it matters, but I play Terran.
protoss is low in gsl representation because of the history of the league with so many T/Z. You cant just show up into the league, you have to be a part of it for a while and advance. If you look at the SPL rosters, they send out protoss constantly. Representation is fine for everywhere but the GSL which is a legacy system and will take longer to match the reality of our metagame
mines are light, take extra dmg from oracles, phoenixes, have 90HP so can be killed by a probe surround. if the mine tries to burrow near a photon cannon, it will take 16 dps for 3 seconds, then become burrowed. This is 54 damage already in the two seconds it then take to find a target and launch the missile, it will take 32 more damage. this is 86 damage, so if any other unit, or antyhing that can deal 4 damage in a span of 5 seconds (photon overcharge?) , is there to assist you, will take zero damage from the mines. Pretty much man, you're either rushing hellbats to drop with and hoping he doesn't have cannons/cant target the Photon overcharge on the medivacs, or yo'ure playing standard. mines are really bad against protoss. hell bats are the only good harass, also can be shut down by phoenix, tae bonus dmg from oracles. A phoenix shooting a lifted maraduer will do 9 dps. a phoenix shooting a lifted mine will do 18 dps. That's 180 damage over the course of a graviton beam, They will also do that dps to hellbat drops.
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I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Longer games of PvT have a very predictable progression. Protoss will open with either HT or colo tech, usually colossi. If this doesn't decide the game they switch to HTs once Terran starts countering the colossi. If the tech switch doesn't decide the game and Terran has too many ghosts to make storm unreliable, Protoss then takes their HTs and surplus gas and makes a bunch of Archons to try and end the game. If Protoss doesn't win here before the Terran's ghost count gets high enough that they can start mass-EMPing archons away, Protoss just loses, 9 times out of 10.
When the bulk of your army is marines and marauders, storm is a huge problem. Marauders with 125 HP don't get annihilated by storm, but they can't kill zealots. Marines can kill the zealots but they just evaporate if Protoss gets even one or two storms off. When you have 20 ghosts, you don't care about HTs. You can spam EMP/Snipe them down and with micro the 100 HP Ghosts can survive several storms even if you mess this up. In addition, unlike Marauders, Ghosts massacre Zealots. In fact, they hard counter all Protoss units except Colossi if you have enough of them.
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This is just more of the same.
Terran has the weakest rate of production which means it has to rely on fewer units than the other races to defend or attack or risk falling behind greatly behind in economy/upgrades.
The strength of queens and mothership core just highlights the unique weakness that terran faces.
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On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Longer games of PvT have a very predictable progression. Protoss will open with either HT or colo tech, usually colossi. If this doesn't decide the game they switch to HTs once Terran starts countering the colossi. If the tech switch doesn't decide the game and Terran has too many ghosts to make storm unreliable, Protoss then takes their HTs and surplus gas and makes a bunch of Archons to try and end the game. If Protoss doesn't win here before the Terran's ghost count gets high enough that they can start mass-EMPing archons away, Protoss just loses, 9 times out of 10.
When the bulk of your army is marines and marauders, storm is a huge problem. Marauders with 125 HP don't get annihilated by storm, but they can't kill zealots. Marines can kill the zealots but they just evaporate if Protoss gets even one or two storms off. When you have 20 ghosts, you don't care about HTs. You can spam EMP/Snipe them down and with micro the 100 HP Ghosts can survive several storms even if you mess this up. In addition, unlike Marauders, Ghosts massacre Zealots. In fact, they hard counter all Protoss units except Colossi if you have enough of them.
no idea how you have this opinion unless you play only protoss i have played both sides, and protoss is at a tremendous, automatic advantage in longer games
what happens when T wins a huge batle, only a few ghosts left over (good energy) and vikings
looks like these vikings, and ghosts are going to try to press the advantage, but will get 1a'd by anything protoss warps in. These units just are bad, against everything
what happens when P wins a huge battle, only a few templar left over (good energy) and collosus
extremely different, because the longer the game goes on, the more battles terran cannot lose (if you lose one, it's GG. ask any decent terran), and the more "situations" happen, where you kill off a huge protoss army but can't press forward becuase you're left with this awkward army of a few medivacs, marines, but not enough to really threaten buildings, a few vikings which are horrible against every unit in the game besides what they are designed to counter, ghosts which are horrible against every unit in the game besides casters.
when i play a PvT, lose a battle, warpin all my gas into HT and all minerals into zealots, hold his timing and then am able to take another base, it doesn't feel right. when terran loses a battle, and some ghosts / marines he had made pop out, it's not nearly the same impact, and he can't survive.maybe try watching your replays if you are still confused as to why terrans hate late game,
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Uhm, I hate to tell you this, but Ghosts are cost-effective (to say nothing about supply-effective) against every Protoss unit except Zealots and Colossi, and they become cost-effective against Zealots if you have enough of them. (The same way Stalkers become cost-effective against Zerglings if you have enough, by exploiting the ranged vs. melee advantage)
Yeah, if you win a big fight with 50 supply left over you can't press. But you should be winning with at least two thirds of your army left if you go into the fight with 20+ vikings and ghosts. Their colossi will die in seconds, no storms will go off, and archons will pop to EMP spam before they even get in range to attack once. You think their zealots and stalkers are going to do much to your mass ranged super DPS bio?
Late, late game PvT involves Protoss sitting behind a bunch of Photon Cannons hoping Terran fucks up and exposes their vikings to storm or a well-timed blink. They cannot fight Terran in the open because the vikings kill the colo and the ghosts kill everything else.
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http://es-es.twitch.tv/wcs_europe/c/2236096
Yesterday.Naniwa vs Shuttle Game 1. 2 Rax proxy+bunker vs 1gate Expansion.MScore+2 stalkers and sentry defend it losing 5 probes and not losing the nexus...If MVP would play vs Squirtle in the GSL with HotS online,he would have only 3 GSL now and Squirtle would have defended this soooo easy...
I was going crazy in the BETA trying to guess what allin is the P going to do changing my BO so many times.Finally the best is the reaper or reactor 1-1-1 NOT Expand with COMPLETED ebay to be able to build turrets before 4:50 and defend the OP oracles.DTs are pretty annoying as well and I was forced to build my CC in may main and put a turret even in my ramp behind a bunker completing the wall of depots.I know its hard to realise you should spend 125+100+100 to build 2 turrets and am ebay,but finally find it better than wasting a scan(300) to be able to kill the DTs in my ramp or in my mineral line.That said if he is going for blink stalkers you barely defend building TANKS having almost useless starport(medivacs are armored and are focuced so easy by stalkers) and got your exapansion delayed till 8-9 mins,while the Protoss is expanding after 4gate blink stalker. This is not the best.After failed Proxy Oracle,they can go 3-4 Oracles+3-4 gate all in or even Void RAys 3-4 gate all in and bust your 2-3 bunkers in your expansion. That said in my Platinum League, I find it very hard to do early game damage to either P or Z.If T can have the PF for the cost of scan,maybe it wuld be much better.I would do love too to be able to build Turrets that DETECT,shoot AIR and even GROUND as Cannons do.
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On May 04 2013 04:26 Xequecal wrote: Uhm, I hate to tell you this, but Ghosts are cost-effective (to say nothing about supply-effective) against every Protoss unit except Zealots and Colossi, and they become cost-effective against Zealots if you have enough of them. (The same way Stalkers become cost-effective against Zerglings if you have enough, by exploiting the ranged vs. melee advantage)
Yeah, if you win a big fight with 50 supply left over you can't press. But you should be winning with at least two thirds of your army left if you go into the fight with 20+ vikings and ghosts. Their colossi will die in seconds, no storms will go off, and archons will pop to EMP spam before they even get in range to attack once. You think their zealots and stalkers are going to do much to your mass ranged super DPS bio?
Late, late game PvT involves Protoss sitting behind a bunch of Photon Cannons hoping Terran fucks up and exposes their vikings to storm or a well-timed blink. They cannot fight Terran in the open because the vikings kill the colo and the ghosts kill everything else.
please support this with a replay of a Professional game where a protoss did not get a single storm/archon hit or collosus volley off. This may have happened pre ghost nerf in 2011 and when protoss didnt control HTs and Collosus with competency like they do now...but I've really not seen any giant equal army/upgrades/tech fights where terran just rolls over the protoss in some time, especially in a Late late game scenario. There might be a few when terrans press an advantage and land some emps in that transition from collosus to HT where htey may have 3-4 storms max ( I'm thinking of Innovation Parting in Proleague on Whirlwind where Innovation anticipates partings flanking and always sniped them..even though he ate a few storms parting ran out and Innnovation narrowly won the fight..one more good storm probably would have changed that result..but Innovation is a god.)
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On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most. Except on March the 12th, Blizzard released HotS, which includes the Tempest, and Tempests/Colossi/Stalkers/HTs/Cannons kills anything in lategame PvT. Anything. Mech, bio (mass Ghosts/Vikings), Battlecruisers, any mix. Anything. See Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S and Happy vs HasuObs, Daybreak, WCS Europe. Mass Ghosts/Vikings no longer works if Protoss' resources/position in the game allow him to head for the Tempest transition (i. e. not a full switch, just including a few Tempests to his already pre-existent army).
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Why are Terrans, historically the race that has dominated this game the longest, always allowed to make posts like these?
You guys have had the best success since WOL beta, yet constantly make balance posts like these that are allowed to just stay open, i dont get it, considering the stance on balance complaints. Yet it appears, that if a balance complaint is in a large enough body of text, TL allows it, why??
As to the op. ASYMMETRICAL has been mentioned multiple times, and it needs mentioning again. There is no reason to complain that you can't win in the first 6 minutes. Why would the developers want you to be able to win so quickly so easily? I laugh at the fact that you really want to complain about your lack of being able to scout information, when protoss is historically the worse race at scouting, especially early game, where your complaints are all coming from.
A balance whine is still a balance whine no matter how many words you put into the op. All i can see is 'why can't i 1/1/1 anymore for free wins'. The fact that terran players are trying to say we are unbeatable mid and lategame as well is just funny.
Please let the game play out. Learn to burn energy on the MSC like zergs force sentries to burn energy. New game is gonna need new playstyles/strats. Were not there yet, and the point we are at shows almost perfect balance sub pro levels. Yes alot of the units are ridiculously strong, but that doesn't break the game. Oracle is as op as Turbovaks/Mines are .We are all OP now. Get used to it.
Edit: Too many posts like the above user. No, we dont beat any comp.. Ghost/Viking still works wonders. Dont cherry pick certain series and try to call imbalance. Esp happy vs hasuobs. Happy threw that game, he had a great position but didn't know how to close it out, and just wasted thousands of resources nuking nothing worthwhile, when he could have been dropping a nuke on every single base simultaneously. And its been noted t hat flash didn't play that series well either .Also best PVT player in the world. Argument = Invalid. Discussions are pointless if you terran players just have the mindset 'you are unbeatable at ever level of the game', which alot of you seem to have. Yet in my experience, esp once you hit masters, TvP is hard as fuck to play from the protoss position, even lategame now. See, we have different opinions. Doesn't make our claims true or false, just makes them opinions. We can have this discussion without constant balance whining
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Late game micro TvP is still unworldly hell for me, and I'm in high masters. In wings I did a lot of early timings to just avoid that situation all together. The photon overcharge has killed nearly every Terran early aggression--> 2 rax, expo into 4-5 rax, 1/1/1. Widow mines aren't nearly as good as they were in the first few weeks as Protoss have learned to defend against them, while 6 marines and 12 scvs will die absurdly fast to 2 oracles...
Also, because Toss can be so greedy, things like dt drop or stargate openings, which were risky in wings, are not risky at all now.
Medivacs are very strong, and hellbats are underused atm, but even taking balance aside, the fact that one race can't all in (or even early pressure) the other while the other has multiple very strong all ins does not make for fun gameplay. That's how TvZ was in wings after the queen buff and it made for very stale and unremarkable gameplay.
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On May 04 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most. Except on March the 12th, Blizzard released HotS, which includes the Tempest, and Tempests/Colossi/Stalkers/HTs/Cannons kills anything in lategame PvT. Anything. Mech, bio (mass Ghosts/Vikings), Battlecruisers, any mix. Anything. See Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S and Happy vs HasuObs, Daybreak, WCS Europe. Mass Ghosts/Vikings no longer works if Protoss' resources/position in the game allow him to head for the Tempest transition (i. e. not a full switch, just including a few Tempests to his already pre-existent army). Flash had 70+ SCVs and way too many Medivacs. Not trying to debate this because I don't really have an opinion about lategame PvT, but Flash made some mistakes.
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On May 04 2013 04:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most. Except on March the 12th, Blizzard released HotS, which includes the Tempest, and Tempests/Colossi/Stalkers/HTs/Cannons kills anything in lategame PvT. Anything. Mech, bio (mass Ghosts/Vikings), Battlecruisers, any mix. Anything. See Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S and Happy vs HasuObs, Daybreak, WCS Europe. Mass Ghosts/Vikings no longer works if Protoss' resources/position in the game allow him to head for the Tempest transition (i. e. not a full switch, just including a few Tempests to his already pre-existent army). Flash had 70+ SCVs and way too many Medivacs. Not trying to debate this because I don't really have an opinion about lategame PvT, but Flash made some mistakes. I didn't say Flash or Happy played perfectly. No one plays perfectly. But the point is, their lategame transitions were trashed despite them being ahead earlier in the game. You can also say that Flash had no Yamato, but I doubt it would have changed the outcome.
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I'm surprised this thread has been open this long
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You terrans aren't supposed to be winning with those early aggressions. Your just burning our energy, which is good. Poke once or twice to keep the energy down, so that your midgame turbovak usage is even more op. Dont let us build energy so that we can defend your drops so easily. Flash for instance, you can see alot of his pushes are designed just to make the toss use the photon charge, then he turns arounds and leaves. You force us to use that early, and our midgame defense gets weaker.
Your aggression isn't meant to win anymore. Blizzard doesn't want TvP to just be Terran alling Toss and the MU solely relying on how well Toss defends. This isn't wings.
But what im saying is, dont be discouraged that we hold those early pushes off. Those early pushes are meant to burns msc energy, and they succeed, boosting your midgame even more. Just because you dont kill us or workers doesn't mean you aren't hurting us in some way when you do that.
On May 04 2013 04:54 renaissanceMAN wrote: I'm surprised this thread has been open this long
it shouldn't be, but TL has a habit of leaving balance complaints open when its: a. a terran making it b. the post is a wall of text
mostly b applies, its like if they put enough words in their balance complaint, the mods give it time to see how it plays out this one has been played out though, there is no discussion, just terran tears
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1. Protoss is not "safe" early game against Terran at all. You're claiming that Protoss players can play greedy just because of the Nexus cannon, which is absolutely not true. Yes, the Nexus cannon buys time for Protoss players to build up units once they spot aggression, but the Nexus cannon is limited. You can only use it twice and it's easily baited, if you were an intelligent Terran you would send a Medivac to bait both Nexus cannons and then macro units behind it.
2. What do you mean by
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: The reverse is simply not true. If the Terran player is unable to scout early aggression from the Protoss player there many situations where he simply dies. The frustration however does come from one specific front, but from the multiple different ways a Terran needs to defend. Couple that with the extreme difficulty Terran has in properly scouting and figuring out what Protoss is doing. The final nail in the coffin is all the different ways a Terran needs to prepare for the various all ins a Protoss can do. Most of them require very specific setups to defend and being safe against something is hard enough even with perfect information. The case here? Polt scouting grubby's proxy oracle twice and both times being unable to defend the oncoming attacks. Then there the greedy Protoss. If the Protoss just simply goes for extremely fast upgrades and either fast Colossus or even more scary very fast upgrades and templar the Terran player can be in a world of trouble."
Terran has scans and reapers, isn't that enough? Protoss can't deny scans and reapers can easily slip through defenses. You're telling me just because Terran players refuse to give up on their greed (MULES) it is the Protoss's fault that they can get away with faster upgrades? Not to mention how in situations a +2 Protoss army could still easily lose to a +1 stim Terran army; thus, going for fast upgrades is just Protoss's way of trying to keep up with Terran.
3. On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
Absolutely untrue, and based on nothing. Protoss vs Terran always comes down to scouting and map awareness. In the mid-late game if Protoss is caught by a drop or a stim-runby its basically over. The core just helps Protoss with mobility and that's it. The Nexus cannon in that case only buys time for Protoss and plus, unlike the Planetary Command the Nexus only hits 1 unit. You want to talk about safe? Planetary has no restriction, you can repair it, it hits AoE. So why doesn't Terran make that? Oh yeah, cause all Terrans are greedy pigs and just want Orbitals for their bases. Make sense? No it doesn't because SC2 is a game of who comes out on top, every player takes the greedier route, and frankly Terrans are the greediest with their MULEs and in-base expansions.
TL:DR, you're agruments are flawed and solely based on 1 game, and what you misjudged in DreamHack. There's no denying that going for a T3 tech seems greedy along with upgrades, but look at it this way. Terran can take a 3rd while getting upgrades and still pump units, while Protoss has to sit on 2 base to do that, if they try to take a 3rd and gets spotted it's basically asking for multiprone drops.
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#1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...?
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On May 04 2013 04:54 ohampatu wrote: Your aggression isn't meant to win anymore. Blizzard doesn't want TvP to just be Terran alling Toss and the MU solely relying on how well Toss defends. This isn't wings. Pity the standard in TvP high level against Colossi is 3-bases all-ins with SCV pulls then.
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Protoss are safer when taking their second base than in WOL, but less safe when taking their third. It's fairly well balanced, although maybe not good game design.
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On May 04 2013 04:47 ohampatu wrote: Why are Terrans, historically the race that has dominated this game the longest, always allowed to make posts like these?
You guys have had the best success since WOL beta, yet constantly make balance posts like these that are allowed to just stay open, i dont get it, considering the stance on balance complaints. Yet it appears, that if a balance complaint is in a large enough body of text, TL allows it, why??
As to the op. ASYMMETRICAL has been mentioned multiple times, and it needs mentioning again. There is no reason to complain that you can't win in the first 6 minutes. Why would the developers want you to be able to win so quickly so easily? I laugh at the fact that you really want to complain about your lack of being able to scout information, when protoss is historically the worse race at scouting, especially early game, where your complaints are all coming from.
A balance whine is still a balance whine no matter how many words you put into the op. All i can see is 'why can't i 1/1/1 anymore for free wins'. The fact that terran players are trying to say we are unbeatable mid and lategame as well is just funny.
Please let the game play out. Learn to burn energy on the MSC like zergs force sentries to burn energy. New game is gonna need new playstyles/strats. Were not there yet, and the point we are at shows almost perfect balance sub pro levels. Yes alot of the units are ridiculously strong, but that doesn't break the game. Oracle is as op as Turbovaks/Mines are .We are all OP now. Get used to it.
Edit: Too many posts like the above user. No, we dont beat any comp.. Ghost/Viking still works wonders. Dont cherry pick certain series and try to call imbalance. Esp happy vs hasuobs. Happy threw that game, he had a great position but didn't know how to close it out, and just wasted thousands of resources nuking nothing worthwhile, when he could have been dropping a nuke on every single base simultaneously. And its been noted t hat flash didn't play that series well either .Also best PVT player in the world. Argument = Invalid. Discussions are pointless if you terran players just have the mindset 'you are unbeatable at ever level of the game', which alot of you seem to have. Yet in my experience, esp once you hit masters, TvP is hard as fuck to play from the protoss position, even lategame now. See, we have different opinions. Doesn't make our claims true or false, just makes them opinions. We can have this discussion without constant balance whining
WoL GSL Champions: 3 Titles for Protoss(2 MC and 1 Seed); 7 Titles for Terran(4 MVP, 1 Polt, 1 MMA, 1 Jjakji) 8 Titles for Zerg (3 Nestea, 1 Fruitdealer, 1 DongRaeGu,1 Life, 1 Sniper,1 Roro, 1)
The Zerg Championships almost all in the last year of the Game and we got 2 ZvZ finals in row.Yes.Terran has been the absolut dominator of WoL... Come on...
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