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Do not derail the thread with discussions about other topics like global warming. |
On March 13 2012 17:13 Kamais Ookin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:08 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 16:54 TanTzoR wrote:On March 13 2012 16:47 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 16:45 savagebeavers wrote:On March 13 2012 16:35 OsoVega wrote:On March 13 2012 16:12 Zergmeister wrote: All levels of education should be free, it is for the greater good of the human race, money's importans pale in comparison.
How can you even suggest to deny humans from education, simply because they have fewer resources than you? by that logic, no 3rd world humans would EVER recive any edjucation, neither would orphans, or poor people. It completely boggles my mind, that we still live in a world, where free education isn't a basic human right.
BTW. Here in Denmark, you get paid as a student to educate yourself beyond primary school.
Free education is impossible. In order for someone to receive an education they must either produce the wealth needed to buy it or someone else needs to produce the wealth needed to buy it. The idea of a right to something that does not occur in nature contradicts the entire ideas of the actual rights which we need in order to survive. The single fundamental right, from which all other rights are corollaries is the right to life, which means, the right to the actions (but not objects) necessary for a rational being to survive and achieve happiness. A corollary of this right to life is the right to property because if a man is to sustain his life by his own actions and reason, he must have the right to the use and disposal of the products of his actions. The man who has no right to the product of his actions has no means to sustain his life. The right to life is not the right to the objects necessary for survival and happiness. If one has the right to the objects needed for survival and happiness, that means someone else is obliged to produce those objects for him. If one is obliged to forfeit the products of his mind, that means he has no right to those objects which means he has no right to property and therefore no right to life. Economic rights destroy individual rights. How can you say free education is impossible when it exists in so many countries? There is no such thing as free education. Someone along the way has to pay for it, whether it be taxpayers or the student. Stop playing on words u_u, ofc he is speaking about taxpayers. OK, if that's the case, then it'll still never be free. The majority of voters fall in the age group of 50+. They certainly won't vote to pay more on education than they would, say medicare, speaking of the U.S. again. You do know a shit-ton of money is going towards useless warfare that could be put towards education right? That solution to that waste is not to spend it elsewhere that the government has no business, it is to not take that money from the tax payer at all. If tax payers want to do things like donate to scholarships, investing in universities and such, they can do that.
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If speech is free, education should definitely be free (at least up to and including high school).
People nowadays put too much premium on freedom of speech while churning out tons of idiots spewing their shit everywhere.
It would be great if the opinions people love to voice are actually worth hearing. Freedom of speech isn't worth much if people don't have the education to utilize it to their best ability.
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On March 13 2012 16:41 savagebeavers wrote: It is really funny how when reading through this almost all the Americans think that it is absurd that university should be free, while some canadians, and all the europeans believe it should be free. I'm not sure if the Americans realize that if they cut their Military budget they could easily afford to pay for free university. I pay 3000$ a semester in Canada, I wish my area(Saskatchewan) had the attitude that quebec has, but unfortunately people would never strike here, I think they enjoy getting fucked by Harper.
So far the war in Iraq has costed... 800 000 000 000 dollars, right? And the average university in the U.S costs 25 000 dollars? They could send 32 000 000 students to unviersity instead
This math is probably incorrect, don't know the actual costs of the universities in the U.S, but i wanted to make a comparison.
Anyway, speaking from a swedish perspective where education is free and where you are given a small sum each month to complete your education i can't really imagine any good argument to why you wouldn't have free education in a country. Having the possiblity to become anything you want no matter who you are has done so much for this country, and believe me the qualities of the universities hasn't suffered at all despite them not charging the students for more than half of their parents yearly salary.
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On March 13 2012 17:08 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:01 askTeivospy wrote:On March 13 2012 16:55 CorsairHero wrote:On March 13 2012 16:52 askTeivospy wrote:On March 13 2012 16:46 sirkyan wrote:On March 13 2012 16:39 askTeivospy wrote: theres already enough people with a B. Sc making it hard to get a job in sciences now, opening it up to everyone would be annoying unless Free education = increase GPA to graduate
I'd be for that, i'd still pass and all the people who think they're scientists by pulling sub 3.0 UDGPA / CGPA (even 3.0 is low for Upper division IMO, but for cgpa w/e) wont get a degree. Currently morons are coasting by with a cool 2.5 getting the same degree I have so in order to distinguish myself from them I need to spend more time and money getting a M. Sc. (which i am going to do regardless, but that's besides the point) Why do you feel grades are of such importance (for character)? Why do people define themself through grades? It's pathetic. Your character isn't going to get you into graduate school or get you research grants to show the world you actually are capable at something other than basic memorization. Sorry to tell you but these days a B Sc is as good as a BA in terms of getting a job because everyone has one now since the requirements to get one are objectively low I was an open minded child once, but then i grew up and got experienced. IMO its you with the pathetic outlook. The "morons" with a "cool" 2.5 aren't going to grad school and wont be looking to get research grants so don't worry. still doesn't mean they deserve a B SC either sorry, its less about the number but more about how much effort you put into it the number is a reflection of how much effort you put in so I don't know what you're talking about. You seem bitter that people with a GPA with < 3 can get degrees.
Not really, because < 3 GPA means they wont get a job or be able to get their masters. They're stuck kek. I just think its hilarious that people need to academically distinguish themselves further from the riff raff who dont think those student loans will come back to bite em
I also think its sad that a lot of people think that higher learning is bachelors degree. You can get the same knowledge from reading articles on wikipedia. Higher learning starts with Masters, which is when university starts paying you stipend (at least where I live) + any grant money to "go to school".
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On March 13 2012 17:01 Euronyme wrote: In Sweden you get payed about 300 dollars a month as a university student (which you don't have to pay back), you get discounts on just about anything from computers to bus tickets, you get shorter queues for apartments that you can rent really cheap while studying and it's all completely free. You do have to pay for the books though. You can also take student loans which have pretty gosh darn good interest rates. Just recently the right wing party removed the possibility for foreigners outside of the EU to have free education here as well.
Having an educated population is one of the corner stones of democracy. You can't have democracy if you have a population that doesn't even know what it's voting for. It's one of the most important thing in society. If the majority in a country lacks higher education you might as well turn into a dictatorship, because the public can't be held responsible to make good decisions.
Edit. Of course Sweden is in no way unique for this. Just an example as I actually know how the system works here.
This is the winner comment in this thread. Also, the exact same things applies in Denmark, except non-europeans can still get free education.
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I think something that some people are missing is that there are teens out there who can NOT get a loan. They live with their single mom in a crappy suburban area, and the bank will not give them more than 1k. So, expensive education means = some people can NOT go to university, unless you fund them, somehow.
Education is so important. Having an uneducated population leads to so many problems.. and they end up costing way more than education would have in the first place (running prisons costs so much..).
Education doesnt have to be free, but anyone who meets the academic requirements should be able to attend, no matter how much money you have. This can be achieved with free (or almost free) education, or with a very solid funding allocated by the government to the poorest students.
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On March 13 2012 17:24 Zergmeister wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:01 Euronyme wrote: In Sweden you get payed about 300 dollars a month as a university student (which you don't have to pay back), you get discounts on just about anything from computers to bus tickets, you get shorter queues for apartments that you can rent really cheap while studying and it's all completely free. You do have to pay for the books though. You can also take student loans which have pretty gosh darn good interest rates. Just recently the right wing party removed the possibility for foreigners outside of the EU to have free education here as well.
Having an educated population is one of the corner stones of democracy. You can't have democracy if you have a population that doesn't even know what it's voting for. It's one of the most important thing in society. If the majority in a country lacks higher education you might as well turn into a dictatorship, because the public can't be held responsible to make good decisions.
Edit. Of course Sweden is in no way unique for this. Just an example as I actually know how the system works here. This is the winner comment in this thread. Also, the exact same things applies in Denmark, except non-europeans can still get free education. the downside is you'd have to speak danish
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you should pay a small fee for attending university, like public schools. The rest of the money should be government endorsed.
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On March 13 2012 17:26 ChriS-X wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:24 Zergmeister wrote:On March 13 2012 17:01 Euronyme wrote: In Sweden you get payed about 300 dollars a month as a university student (which you don't have to pay back), you get discounts on just about anything from computers to bus tickets, you get shorter queues for apartments that you can rent really cheap while studying and it's all completely free. You do have to pay for the books though. You can also take student loans which have pretty gosh darn good interest rates. Just recently the right wing party removed the possibility for foreigners outside of the EU to have free education here as well.
Having an educated population is one of the corner stones of democracy. You can't have democracy if you have a population that doesn't even know what it's voting for. It's one of the most important thing in society. If the majority in a country lacks higher education you might as well turn into a dictatorship, because the public can't be held responsible to make good decisions.
Edit. Of course Sweden is in no way unique for this. Just an example as I actually know how the system works here. This is the winner comment in this thread. Also, the exact same things applies in Denmark, except non-europeans can still get free education. the downside is you'd have to speak danish
There are probably tonnes of English courses as well. I studied political science in English. It was a great experience.
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On March 13 2012 15:48 tetrismaan wrote: In Denmark it is free, and we even get 1000$ each month from the government, with the chance of making a student-rent for 650$ each month with 1% interest.
Yep, our system is pretty swell. But most countries can't afford this. And if they actually wanted it - they'd have to accept paying 48%-68% in taxes as we do in Denmark - depending on income
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I can't ever imagining paying for school. In sweden it's free, and you get payed because you are going to school. Now it aint much, but it's money.
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On March 13 2012 17:17 OsoVega wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:13 Kamais Ookin wrote:On March 13 2012 17:08 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 16:54 TanTzoR wrote:On March 13 2012 16:47 LRObot wrote:On March 13 2012 16:45 savagebeavers wrote:On March 13 2012 16:35 OsoVega wrote:On March 13 2012 16:12 Zergmeister wrote: All levels of education should be free, it is for the greater good of the human race, money's importans pale in comparison.
How can you even suggest to deny humans from education, simply because they have fewer resources than you? by that logic, no 3rd world humans would EVER recive any edjucation, neither would orphans, or poor people. It completely boggles my mind, that we still live in a world, where free education isn't a basic human right.
BTW. Here in Denmark, you get paid as a student to educate yourself beyond primary school.
Free education is impossible. In order for someone to receive an education they must either produce the wealth needed to buy it or someone else needs to produce the wealth needed to buy it. The idea of a right to something that does not occur in nature contradicts the entire ideas of the actual rights which we need in order to survive. The single fundamental right, from which all other rights are corollaries is the right to life, which means, the right to the actions (but not objects) necessary for a rational being to survive and achieve happiness. A corollary of this right to life is the right to property because if a man is to sustain his life by his own actions and reason, he must have the right to the use and disposal of the products of his actions. The man who has no right to the product of his actions has no means to sustain his life. The right to life is not the right to the objects necessary for survival and happiness. If one has the right to the objects needed for survival and happiness, that means someone else is obliged to produce those objects for him. If one is obliged to forfeit the products of his mind, that means he has no right to those objects which means he has no right to property and therefore no right to life. Economic rights destroy individual rights. How can you say free education is impossible when it exists in so many countries? There is no such thing as free education. Someone along the way has to pay for it, whether it be taxpayers or the student. Stop playing on words u_u, ofc he is speaking about taxpayers. OK, if that's the case, then it'll still never be free. The majority of voters fall in the age group of 50+. They certainly won't vote to pay more on education than they would, say medicare, speaking of the U.S. again. You do know a shit-ton of money is going towards useless warfare that could be put towards education right? That solution to that waste is not to spend it elsewhere that the government has no business, it is to not take that money from the tax payer at all. If tax payers want to do things like donate to scholarships, investing in universities and such, they can do that.
Education is the gov business. Otherwise only rich people get a chance to go to uni, and poor people even if they have more merit are fucked. That's called meritocracy, and that's why higher education should not be ridiculously high like in the US. And yes gov has to force people to pay tax. Do you think as individualist the people are they would start donating for scholarships by themselves?
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Lalalaland34461 Posts
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On March 13 2012 17:20 askTeivospy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:08 CorsairHero wrote:On March 13 2012 17:01 askTeivospy wrote:On March 13 2012 16:55 CorsairHero wrote:On March 13 2012 16:52 askTeivospy wrote:On March 13 2012 16:46 sirkyan wrote:On March 13 2012 16:39 askTeivospy wrote: theres already enough people with a B. Sc making it hard to get a job in sciences now, opening it up to everyone would be annoying unless Free education = increase GPA to graduate
I'd be for that, i'd still pass and all the people who think they're scientists by pulling sub 3.0 UDGPA / CGPA (even 3.0 is low for Upper division IMO, but for cgpa w/e) wont get a degree. Currently morons are coasting by with a cool 2.5 getting the same degree I have so in order to distinguish myself from them I need to spend more time and money getting a M. Sc. (which i am going to do regardless, but that's besides the point) Why do you feel grades are of such importance (for character)? Why do people define themself through grades? It's pathetic. Your character isn't going to get you into graduate school or get you research grants to show the world you actually are capable at something other than basic memorization. Sorry to tell you but these days a B Sc is as good as a BA in terms of getting a job because everyone has one now since the requirements to get one are objectively low I was an open minded child once, but then i grew up and got experienced. IMO its you with the pathetic outlook. The "morons" with a "cool" 2.5 aren't going to grad school and wont be looking to get research grants so don't worry. still doesn't mean they deserve a B SC either sorry, its less about the number but more about how much effort you put into it the number is a reflection of how much effort you put in so I don't know what you're talking about. You seem bitter that people with a GPA with < 3 can get degrees. Not really, because < 3 GPA means they wont get a job or be able to get their masters. They're stuck kek. I just think its hilarious that people need to academically distinguish themselves further from the riff raff who dont think those student loans will come back to bite em I also think its sad that a lot of people think that higher learning is bachelors degree. You can get the same knowledge from reading articles on wikipedia. Higher learning starts with Masters, which is when university starts paying you stipend (at least where I live) + any grant money to "go to school".
You can get master equivalent knowledge reading through a book. Edit; I suppose several..
The thing that bothers me with your obsession of grades is that you have no idea how clever the people getting 'bad' grades are. Perhaps they will bring more to the table than you? Don't be so quick judging them, you are very narrow minded. I realize it's about getting a job later on, but is that all you think there is to it?
You keep saying you need to distinguish yourself in a way that makes me wonder if you even really care about the knowledge and learning and not just to perceive yourself as better than others.
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My favorite thing is how in starting schools they push getting good at math, science, engineering because these are the areas that are struggling in the US. So, I get good at all of these things and go to college for an engineering degree and see that I am paying the same as every other person there. It makes me wonder why people with humanities degrees, that will have a nigh impossible time finding a job in the near future, actually attend college. Here in the US it doesn't seem worth it to me, I'd rather study abroad in Sweden where its free (could be a rumor but I remember hearing that somewhere) than get the same degree here for those types of degrees.
But in an ideal world it would be free for everyone, and you would think at least public universities would be since a nation should want to invest in its own future (at least in its future engineers!! )
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On March 13 2012 17:26 ChriS-X wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 17:24 Zergmeister wrote:On March 13 2012 17:01 Euronyme wrote: In Sweden you get payed about 300 dollars a month as a university student (which you don't have to pay back), you get discounts on just about anything from computers to bus tickets, you get shorter queues for apartments that you can rent really cheap while studying and it's all completely free. You do have to pay for the books though. You can also take student loans which have pretty gosh darn good interest rates. Just recently the right wing party removed the possibility for foreigners outside of the EU to have free education here as well.
Having an educated population is one of the corner stones of democracy. You can't have democracy if you have a population that doesn't even know what it's voting for. It's one of the most important thing in society. If the majority in a country lacks higher education you might as well turn into a dictatorship, because the public can't be held responsible to make good decisions.
Edit. Of course Sweden is in no way unique for this. Just an example as I actually know how the system works here. This is the winner comment in this thread. Also, the exact same things applies in Denmark, except non-europeans can still get free education. the downside is you'd have to speak danish
see it like this, if you learn danish you will be ale to speak a language, that sounds like a drunk polarbear speaking.
Joke aside, the overwhelming majority in Denmark is able to speak english(except Villy Søvndal our secretary of state...lol wtf?), and there is alot of english courses.
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In Australia basically (for tertiary/university education) the government gives you a low interest loan that you pay back after you finish your degree and start earning above a certain threshold (they also subsidise the actual cost as well). Personally I think this is a great system, and I feel very privileged to live in a country that operates this way.
I do think we should pay for our tertiary education though, if we don't we just end up paying it back through taxes anyway, makes more sense the individual pays for what they use.
For primary and secondary the public schools are pretty much free.
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"education" is free because you have the internet and the library.
the piece of paper called a diploma you want should not be free.
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On March 13 2012 15:48 TanTzoR wrote: In the UK the gov has triple the fees. Basically if you entered this year you will pay 10k for a bachelor, if you enter next year you will pay 30k. Actually a free education at a uni level is not that good. But it shouldn't be absurdly high like in the US or soon in the UK. For instance in France the unis are for bad students, the good ones go to high ranked business and engineering schools.
Yea im going to England in october to start my university education so im going to have to pay 9k pounds every year which kind of sucks Upside is that ill be going to a amazing university.
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I live in a country where pretty much any education is free (my tuition this year was 30 euros) unless you choose to go to private institutions (which are usually worse than free ones) and while this all seems good and well as students have large discounts on meals, can work as student which means they don't have to pay taxes, it also means there's a lot of abuse of this and many people extend their studies to double or triple the required time It is also becoming a problem as people do not want to learn professions that require lower education, since you can go to university as long as you pass, meaning you get 50%, while university should be for people that are better than majority, which means we're starting to lack lower rated jobs while on other hand we have a lot of unemployed young people with high education Funny thing is that those professions that require lower education often pay more, since you can open private business and with the lack of these they charge high prices
tl:dr higher education can be free but there have to be standards and limits as to who can attend it
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