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On February 20 2012 02:39 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 00:58 Kurr wrote: For me, Diablo 3 was a casual game as soon as they announced infinite respecs/no skill trees/no stat allocation/less diverse stats on weapons (IMO).
I still think the game will be fun to play... it just won't have a long life span for me. I've made 100s of characters in Diablo 2 because I enjoy trying out crazy stuff and making random builds. For me, building characters IS the goal/fun. In Diablo 3, I will make 5 characters. Simple as that.
I don't really mind these changes because, for me, they don't really affect what the experience will be overall. That pretty much sums how I feel as there is really no consequence for your decisions at all. The no stat allocations is just really dumb IMO. Will probably buy the game, but not hyped as they keep changing systems and dumbing everything down.
Yeah, I miss the good ol' times when I dumped everything in vitality. Why did Blizzard remove such an awesome feature.
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There are still people that complain about the stat allocation? ROFL! Like yeah, I really want the option to set my strength to whatever I need for my endgame armor, my dexterity to whatever I need for 75% block and my energy to... oh wait, nobody spends points on energy! )
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VdH, your argument is a straw man. The reason people are upset about stat allocation is because when a system doesn't work well you should FIX the system. Blizzard instead chose to simply remove it. If they were so concerned about retards playing the game then they could have easily made an "auto-allocation" option that is enabled by default.
Plus, sometimes it's fun to experiment with weird stat builds. Now there's basically no experimentation in the game at all.
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On February 20 2012 04:56 Yacobs wrote: VdH, your argument is a straw man. The reason people are upset about stat allocation is because when a system doesn't work well you should FIX the system. Blizzard instead chose to simply remove it. If they were so concerned about retards playing the game then they could have easily made an "auto-allocation" option that is enabled by default.
Plus, sometimes it's fun to experiment with weird stat builds. Now there's basically no experimentation in the game at all.
They did fix it...
Sometimes the only way to fix something is to remove it.
Having odd permanent choices makes little sense for a game that you play the main content 3 times over. It makes sense in a rogue-like, skryim, or other game where you arc through a story and your allocations affect your story (a narrative, or in a roguelike's case an emergent story).
In Diablo 3 you kill shit. Then kill some more shit. Then you do it 3x times in the same setting. If it takes you 2 tries to get an allocation right then you're going through the same setting 6-8 times (depending on if you bail before Inferno or not) with the same game play each time which is mind-numbingly boring just to get 1 decent character (Then you would do it again for each other type of build you want). If you can respec for free at max level then stats are meaningless anyways and just an annoying book keeping thing (respec because now your gear says this stat spec is optimal). For people who don't want to constantly drive characters through the same (easy) content, no stats is a huge improvement. For people who do, play hardcore.
Stats, as far as I am concerned, are a vestigial part of the game that came from D1's rogue-like roots (D1 was more rogue like than D2 which is more rogue like than D3).
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Just because you say the D2 stat system was not fixable doesn't make it the truth.
For people who do, play hardcore.
As expected, you completely miss the point. No one wants to play through the same content over and over again just for kicks. People want to build a character. Watching Blizzard build the character for you doesn't hit the mark. Is that really so hard to understand?
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Currently streaming should find it in the stream section on TL
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On February 20 2012 05:32 Yacobs wrote:Just because you say the D2 stat system was not fixable doesn't make it the truth. As expected, you completely miss the point. No one wants to play through the same content over and over again just for kicks. People want to build a character. Watching Blizzard build the character for you doesn't hit the mark. Is that really so hard to understand?
Yes, because it's just a stupid illusion anyways. You are lamenting the fact that you're not clicking 5 buttons every time you level up that are done purely for when you reach something like 60+ or 80+. From like 1-60 stats are just an annoyance that keeps you from using some drops that you can't really do anything about and have little, if any, bearing on how your character plays. Maybe in nightmare you'll be slightly weaker or slightly stronger depending on your stat distribution, but generally it's not an issue. The only decision in all that time is not what you want your stats to be, just a matter of priority of what to level. That plus a high chance to fuck it up if you don't read a guide or play multiple times.
Chances are you won't miss it once you actually play the game. Especially since the increased gear slots and skill/rune system means that there's a lot more variation in making optimal sets of gear. What's good for Rapid Fire is very unlikely to be what is good for Impale.
The gameplay of Diablo 2 & 3 and stats (doubly so permanent ones) were always at odds.
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They need to fire the person that made the new skill interface.
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On February 20 2012 05:32 Yacobs wrote:Just because you say the D2 stat system was not fixable doesn't make it the truth. As expected, you completely miss the point. No one wants to play through the same content over and over again just for kicks. People want to build a character. Watching Blizzard build the character for you doesn't hit the mark. Is that really so hard to understand? Hmm? Why are people so butthurt about allocating stat points? I just blindly placed them anywhere, I did most of my customization through gear, which is probably going to happen in D3 as well. Stat points in D1 and 2 weren't even interesting, I just wanted to continue killing stuff.
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[+ Show Spoiler +QUOTE]On February 20 2012 04:09 VdH wrote: I'm wondering how many of the people that cry out "the new patch is awful" actually HAVE a beta key and played through the available content! Cause I'm having the sensation that most of them have no clue whatsoever what the actual game feels like. There was a great post earlier, by the user Logo, explaining why this patch is actually great, and I have to agree with most of the points he made:
- the world feels much more alive than ever, there seems to be a threat looming around in every corner, and, although the difficulty isn't increased per se, the user will feel a much greater challenge due to the increased number of bosses and normal enemies. -the skill system is better than ever: you can actually feel your character getting better with each level, because there's either a new skill that can be used on either the mouse/1-4, or a rune that can improve an existing skill. The variety of skills a character can use is therefore increased, making the game feel much more interactive. - what most of the qq'ers have no idea about is the fact that Blizz stated that game can and will be soloable up to Inferno and up to level 60. This means that everyone will eventually have access to all the skill/rune combination. Overall, the system will be much more flexible than what D2 had, where you had to play till your fingers dropped to get to level 95+. -Someone asked "what are we supposed to farm?". This made me lol, just because I see that people get this silly idea that they will need to farm their asses out in order to enjoy the game to the fullest. Relax, guys! Since you'll be able to max out your level solo, you'll have all the time in the world to farm for whatever legendary or set item you most desire. The reason why they removed the idea of droppable runes is exactly the wish for you all to be able to personalize your skills to max, in order to focus all your "farming" on whatever else yo may want to do.
Overall, the patch feels great, and I'm looking forward to an awesome full game. Keep up the good work, Blizz! [/QUOTE]
+ Show Spoiler + Played through the 13 the same way as I did 12 (DH)... This patch is about twice as good as the game was before.
First, the rune system is really nice. People are whining over nothing. Sure it's easy to build anyway you want now but there's still gear that will determine what builds work well. Now though I can actually play what I want without being relient on lucky rune drops.
Ok on to why patch 13 is so amazing...
-The new skill UI is miles ahead of the old one, though I wish elective mode would maybe consolidate more skills into fewer tabs so it was easier to pick the one you want. Still picking skills based on where you want them bound is just way more streamlined than before.
-The new progression is way beyond what we had before. You have something to look forward to every level which is great. Plus the usable rewards come way more often. As a DH Hungering Arrow/Impale are good enough to clear the beta with no sweat, so in 12 there wasn't much to look forward to after level 2. Now you get runes along the way that really help to have something to look forward to even if you aren't going to switch your skills out. On top of that you now get skill slots unlocked faster which makes the game way more engaging. In 12 you'd be pretty much strongly encouraged into a certain build. 1-5 you needed 1 resource generator/0 resource spell and 6-12 you'd have the same + one utility spell. Now the unlocks are 1,2,4,6,12 which means pretty early on you have slots enough to use interesting spells.
So for comparison in 12 my DH did: Hungering Arrow, Impale -> Elemental Arrow, Dodge which made combat super dull because it was just spam impale/elemental arrow until 0 hatred, then hungering arrow.
In 13 my DH by level 6 had: Hungering Arrow, Impale, Bola Shot (which was unusable in any build in 12), Rapid Fire This made combat awesome. I could pull off bola shots on packs of monsters, impale big guys, and use hungering arrow to finish guys off. Likewise I could have done a few other options like used evasive fire, caltrop (not really needed this early on though), or strafe instead.
So overall the new progression, especially for DH I suppose, kicks the crap out of the old progression.
(Note for the following: I played beta 2.5 times through in 12 while I don't have any hard proof stuff has changed 13's world felt pretty different including what spawned, how it spawned, and how much of it. It's possible I just had bad RNG luck, but I don't think so)
-Difficulty. 13 is not hard, just like 12. In some ways it's easier (more skill access) and some ways it's actually harder (a bit more HP, seemingly more elites). But overall it feels way better. In 12 there was no danger and there was no illusion of danger. This made the game feel more like a chore than anything (Gotta get through normal before the game is fun!). In 13 there is no danger, but the game does a much better job of creating an illusion of danager. The game seems to spawn more of the 2ndary monster types like the projectile skeleton summoners, the archer skeletons, quill beasts, and scavengers. Likewise the spawning seems to be better with more monsters overall (*My level seems to indicate this. On a full clear my DH just made level 10, on this play through my DH hit level 11 + 25% to 12) and more elites (I had about 7-8 elite packs in this run vs 2-3 in my previous). There seems to be more small events and more times when monsters spawn around you (again not a big deal, but makes the zombies FEEL more dangerous). Overall this drastically changes how I felt about the playthrough.
-World. My world this time felt much bigger/more open than before and in 12 the 3 times I went through areas they felt to have the same layout pretty much. This time I could see more areas that felt distinct in layout.
So overall this patch is A+ compared to before.
I still think the game will be fun to play... it just won't have a long life span for me. I've made 100s of characters in Diablo 2 because I enjoy trying out crazy stuff and making random builds. For me, building characters IS the goal/fun. In Diablo 3, I will make 5 characters. Simple as that.
Yeah but in D3 hypothetically you'll have stuff like Inferno being hard as shit to get through. On top of that you'll still need multiple sets of gear if you want to try out different builds.
Thanks guy for giving us REAL feedback That sounds a lot better than baseless QQing.
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On February 20 2012 04:56 Yacobs wrote: VdH, your argument is a straw man. The reason people are upset about stat allocation is because when a system doesn't work well you should FIX the system. Blizzard instead chose to simply remove it. If they were so concerned about retards playing the game then they could have easily made an "auto-allocation" option that is enabled by default.
Plus, sometimes it's fun to experiment with weird stat builds. Now there's basically no experimentation in the game at all.
Dude, you know what's wrong with the stat allocation system? It works like a charm in story-driven classic style RPGs, like Fallout 1 and 2, or any >3rd edition AD&D + KOTOR(which is AD&D inspired anyway). Why? Because the player actually has to think and plan and make REAL decisions whenever he allocates those points. "Am I gonna increase my constitution or my strength? A better CON gives me more survivability, while the STR adds to my damage...". Those were decisions that had a great impact on the character and the future game experience. (Not to mention friggin' Fallout 2, where you had to think 10 times before allocating a precious stat point when you had the chance to obtain one...). Diablo is an action-RPG, which means that the player generally wants (and needs) to lay down as much hurt as he can on hundreds of enemies while being able to wear the coolest gear and stay alive. Naturally, most players will aim for those cookie-cutter stat builds that allow them to do all these things. In Diablo, you don't have dilemmas like "Strength or Seduction? Hacking or Perception?" (VtM Bloodlines, just as an example) - that's why stat point allocation becomes useless for almost everybody. Sure, there are guys who want to try out wacky builds, but in D3, they can do so by customizing their gear and their skill choices via runes and such. How's this for an argument?
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No problem! My single player through of 12 was somewhat 'meh'* so when I rolled around in 13 and had a blast with the exact same character type I felt it was worthwhile to share.
*In 12 I found 2-player co-op to be a lot more engaging. Beyond the social aspect the game felt more than just 1-player doubled for 2 players and was more like how I wanted it (and how 13 feels now).
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Im in the beta aswell and i really have to say the patch is awesome, i love the new Skill&Runesystem. You get something new every level up. The Auction house is very funny to use, already sold 2 items . One minor critic would be that u cant create private channels at the moment, you can only join specific public chats. Everything else is awesome! From begin of beta until now i played 50~ hours, now its only 1/3 of act 1..., i guess this game will hook a lot :D.
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Patch 13 summarizing it up...
Lazy. Lets take out more shit to make it worse. Jay Wilson makes 6 figures for this game and they are to busy putting chili recipes on the forum site. What a joke.
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God i want beta, feels nice to read on DH improvements to funf actor though, its the class i want to play but it looked a bit boring before.
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This patch really sucks. I don't know if anyone else is finding it really bad because I did not read through this thread entirely.
Last patch the game was fun. I saw endgame potential with the rune system, I even saw the fun part of being able to twink out a fresh char once you had already made a high level char. Well, the new rune system pretty much ruins that.
Also, the skill system is pretty dumb. Did people really not know where or what to place on a certain mouse button? If I want to use Spectral Blades at level 1, I should be allowed to. Instead, I was forced to use magic misile to level 9, which made me not want to even play, god that sucked so much.
And level based rune system? Are you kidding? I thought this was supposed be be all about customization. Now we have to unlock that feature?
I really hope this is not release. Although, I have a hunch, this was in the works for quite some time. They gave us all the skills in previous builds only to take them away and reveal this.
Sucks.
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Ok finished leveling my wiz to lvl13 here are my thought:
Runes: Feel great, more choices to take, great idea to customize your spell. Problem: it makes beta even more easy than it was... my arcane orb runed has now double radius making me one shot half a screen... I hope games was not made easier overall in the process. The beta feels better than before overall and if difficulty is there in later difficulties I'm happy.
SkillUI: This is where I have a problem, this is pure garbage to me. I understand what they did for a noob friendly interface. I quickly removed the limitation by using the option... problem is it is still garbage. Hardcore gamers clearly got the finger on this one, this is the crappiest UI of crappy UI here are my thoughts I posted on Dfans:
Really for me it doesn't matter that much in the end, it's functional and get the job done but here is my feeling:
This UI is garbage imo:
1. Having to scroll through pages that only show 4 or 5 skills to find the ones you seek is a loss of time (in non noob mode).
2. It is also WAY too big for just 4 skill at a time (+passives)
3. It is REALLY annoying to "seek" the different runes you have unlocked, looking at future unlocks etc. because you cannot easily navigate to every skill at once: some slots cannot accept some skills (even in non noob mode) therefore you cannot look at the runes of this skill while having selected this slot, you must chose another slot JUST to look at this spell. Same thing happens when you try to look at runes of a spell you have already selected, since you cant assign a spell to 2 different slots you must go to the slot you have selected the spell just to look at runes.
What I'd like:
1,2. For point 1 and 2 Really I would have liked all skill displayed at the same time with tiny color icon below each skill icon that shows what runes are available, then if Blizzard really insist on it, just draw lines to split skills in category. This would both make the UI smaller and not require you to scroll pages. For the noob version just highlight the category of the slot and darken other skills. For runes when you select a skill another small window pops with the different runes.
3. Elective mode should remove EVERYTHING about any limitation. I mean no more skills that cannot be assigned to mouse button and the possibility to assign a spell twice. This would at least eliminate point 3.
4. Last idea, do something like I described for pros, keep this shit for noobs.
In the end this doesn't make or break the experience and the game is great, runes add a lot imo, but really this UI is soooo clumsy that it is not worth of a "our best idea" material.
In the end this doesn't make or break the experience and the game is great, runes add a lot imo, but really this UI is soooo clumsy that it is not worth of a "our best idea" material.
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New rune system is shit. Allow me to elaborate.
Instead of having to work for runes that improved and advanced your abilities to help you stand apart from others, you are now handed them free. But in the most ass way possible. If there is a fun rune for your build, with the old system you could pick up a rune and start having fun with it quickly, now there is a chance you have to level all the way to the end before that rune gets handed to you.
The UI for the new system is god awful. I dont think anyone here really likes it anyway. Im not sure I need to elaborate.
Runes used to be cool drops, with a whole crafting system built around it, thats all gone now
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Most of the runes unlock pretty early. The skills you get from 1-5 seem to cap out at 35 (for reference your last skill unlocks at 30) and the skills you get from 7-11 seem to end at 51 for the 5th rune.
So other than the last rune for a skill you should have pretty early access to most runes, or at least enough of them to not be a big deal.
Besides your passives go on pretty far themselves and they're just as likely to keep you from making a certain build.
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The new skills menu reminds me of the Rogers commercial, where two seniors are discussing a new cellphone designed specifically for them. The cellphone has large buttons and is easy to use, it also has a button that calls a family or friend in case of emergency.
Does Blizz think I am an old person?
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