• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:02
CET 23:02
KST 07:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy5ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13
Community News
Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool30Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains18
StarCraft 2
General
Potential Updates Coming to the SC2 CN Server Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Team League Season 10 KSL Week 87 [GSL CK] #2: Team Classic vs. Team Solar
Strategy
Custom Maps
WhatsApp +61480852135 - Buy coke dexi in Melbourne Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 517 Distant Threat Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Buy weed dexies in Australia (WhatsApp 0480852135) ASL21 General Discussion Gypsy to Korea JaeDong's form before ASL
Tourneys
WhatsApp +61480852135 - Buy coke dexi in Perth WA [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Buy coke in Brisbane (WhatsApp 0480852135) [BSL22] Open Qualifiers & Ladder Tours
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
(Telegram@povopackz) - BUY COKE speed 3mmc POLAND General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Mexico's Drug War
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1906 users

TL LBetters vs YGosu Lottoers

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 15:58:13
July 31 2009 08:36 GMT
#1
WTF Is This?

About an hour ago I was watching the 3set of Canata-JD (fun game, btw) and saw MBCGame's usual "predict the winner" poll pop on to the screen (it read 77%-23% in favor of Jaedong). I began to wonder whether MBC's voters were smarter than TL's Liquibetting population, and then if Korean StarCraft fans in general were smarter than TL's (predominantly non-Korean) memberbase. The relative massiveness of Korea's SC fanbase must have two competing effects on its collective ability to predict game winners: on one hand, BW's popularity means Korean fans have easier access to interviews, statistics, professional-quality game analysis, and VODs; on the other, BW's mainstream-ness means the average Korean fan is probably less zealous than the average non-Korean Liquibetter.

After some poking around I was delighted to find that YGosu, TL's Korean sister site of sorts, has a voting system (which I think is called Lotto, based on its url) sort of similar to Liquibet (most importantly for my purpose, both systems incentivize "unbiased" voting by recognizing — or boosting the reputation of — accurate predictors).

I decided to pit TeamLiquid's Liquibetters against YGosu's Lottoers by comparing each group's collective predictive capability over the entire Bacchus OSL 2009 Ro16. The results of this little competition substantiate some interesting theories about the Korean and foreign SC fanbases and their perceptions of various OSL players — you can read those below, under "Conclusion".




Results

Here is the grand Liquibet vs. Lotto showdown's results (out of curiosity I decided to include my somewhat sorry LB history, in that third column on the right):

[image loading]

                                      + Show Spoiler [Graph Description] +
Columns on the right display the percent of the voting population (Liquibetters, Lotto players, me) that correctly predicted the result of the set listed at left. To make the graph easier to read, I've highlighted these cells to indicate prediction accuracy: the more green a cell is, the more accurate (closer to 1) its prediction was; the more red a cell is, the more inaccurate (closer to 0) its prediction was. The sets are ranked according to the success of TL's prediction of their winners.

As the above graph shows, TL just barely edges out YGosu in predictive capability over the OSL Ro16 — but neither site's voting population demonstrated itself to be significantly more intelligent than a monkey (perfectly random voter). Uhhh...let's preserve our dignity by chalking that up to this Ro16's many upsets.

Oh yes, and, of course, I spanked both TL and YGosu with a whopping 54% accuracy. FINGER BOOM!




Conclusion

Liquibets are consistently more one-sided than Lotto votes. I think this is due to a combination of two factors:
  1. Because TL is much smaller than YGosu, Liquibet is both easier to win and its winners probably receive more (local) prestige. Thus, Liquibetters are less likely to vote along fan lines. Less voting along fan lines means more uneven votes, because underdogs' total votes are less inflated by devoted (stupid) fans.
  2. When Liquibetters do vote along fan lines, they are much more likely to do so in unison than are Lottoers. I think our (foreign fans') relatively narrow exposure to the Korean BW scene has made us much more monolithic than Korean SC fans. Because we only have a few sources of independent news analysis (and these sources are deeply involved in, and thus influenced by, the foreign BW community) and we only have access to in-depth interviews and coverage of certain players, we tend to both favor mega-stars (favorites) and ignore new and seemingly personality-less players (underdogs) more than Korean fans.
Liquibetters' weakness: underestimating (Z)Yarnc. Two of TL's three most inaccurate predictions are Yarnc wins. YGosu didn't call these games right, either — but at least they were closer. This one makes sense, given Yarnc's recent results: we grossly underestimated him in Group A. (Honorable mention for this category goes to overestimating Kwanro, who Liquibetters incorrectly predicted to win both vs. hero and Canata.)

Lottoers' weakness: underestimating (T)fantasy. YGosu just isn't as enamored with Fantasy as we are here at TL, and it hurt them here. Stork had a 46% chance against Fantasy's TvP? BackHo 26%? Come on.

Liquibetters' strength: (T)go.go hate. Hot damn do we hate go.go...Liquibetters overwhelmingly picked him to lose in each of his three games, and hit the jackpot when he actually did (vs. ZerO, one of two games that TL called right but YGosu did not).

Lottoers' strength: (Z)type-b love. Holy crap, Lottoers actually picked Type-b to win two Ro16 games — and they were right both times. What did Korean fans know about Type-b that we didn't??

Fun facts:
  • According to Liquibetters, the OSL Ro16's biggest upset was Yarnc > Jaedong. According to Lottoers, it was go.go > Bisu.
  • According to Liquibetters, the OSL Ro16's most lopsided win was Fantasy > Type-b. According to Lottoers, it was Fantasy > BackHo. (So: according to both, Fantasy is a monster.)
  • Despite having a slightly worse overall prediction record, Lottoers actually called one more Ro16 game correctly (14/24) than Liquibetters (13/24) did. (TL's strength seems to be more overwhelmingly sticking to heavy favorites.)
  • Everyone overrated Hwasin. I think Zero > Hwasin was a pretty easy call, and was really surprised to see both TL and YGosu about 70% in favor of the Red Sniper. I guess people put too much stock in his TvZ?
✌
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
July 31 2009 08:57 GMT
#2
Wow sick write up o_o Cool. Thanks!
Peace~
cunninglinguists
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States925 Posts
July 31 2009 09:00 GMT
#3
woah insane. you have way to much time on your hands jwd.
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
July 31 2009 09:01 GMT
#4
That was a really interesting read thanks for the work :D

5/5
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
July 31 2009 09:02 GMT
#5
On July 31 2009 18:00 cunninglinguists wrote:
woah insane. you have way to much time on your hands jwd.

Actually, I have no idea why I chose to do this over the many more important things I needed to take care of tonight. Good news is, it only took me a small fraction of the time it takes to write one news post or PR.
✌
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
July 31 2009 09:07 GMT
#6
Hah, this is pretty cool.

I wonder if we could go back and analyze previous seasons?

Thanks for the infos.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
pachi
Profile Joined October 2006
Melbourne5338 Posts
July 31 2009 09:23 GMT
#7
Isn't YGosu's betting system based on betting points much like GG.net's gosubet system?
Moderatorpachi fanclub http://goto.tl/6DI9 。◕‿◕。
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
July 31 2009 09:25 GMT
#8
A pretty good write-up JWD, thanks for the info

feels good to be smarter than the koreans
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
July 31 2009 09:29 GMT
#9
very nice information. I'm impressed. Good job tl, for having better voting percentages ^^ (barely...)
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 15:46:09
July 31 2009 09:31 GMT
#10
On July 31 2009 18:23 pachi wrote:
Isn't YGosu's betting system based on betting points much like GG.net's gosubet system?

Actually I think you're right — there are mentions of Minerals on YGosu's voting pages. If it's bizarre or complex this format could mess with my ideas about YGosu's voting habits...
✌
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10862 Posts
July 31 2009 09:36 GMT
#11
Intresting

How does this comparison look compared to GG.net?
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
July 31 2009 10:01 GMT
#12
i voted for TyPe B HYAHA!! :D:DD

i never knew there waas this lotto thing before
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
demonic_phate
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States442 Posts
July 31 2009 10:08 GMT
#13
very cool seeing the comparison between the korean and foreign fan communities
also cool to see KT's new name being put to good use
FINGER *BOOOOM*
BusyP
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
July 31 2009 10:29 GMT
#14
Hmm, I thought this was a showmatch or something but definitely surprised me...
we're not that bad though.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 10:37:51
July 31 2009 10:36 GMT
#15
How did they know about type-b's skill?
I really didn't think he would come up but he's already one game up on Leta @.@
And Leta isn't using 2port against him either, so he must have played so many times against it in practice that Leta is scared to use it.

I wonder why we hate go.go
He's not a bad player at all, even if he cheeses and bad manners often.

Thanks for this JWD, it was pretty interesting.
Sullifam
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-01 03:30:50
July 31 2009 15:49 GMT
#16
On July 31 2009 19:29 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Hmm, I thought this was a showmatch or something but definitely surprised me...
we're not that bad though.

Not that bad? .7% above 50% is pretty bad but I suppose if YGosu scored worse than us, we look alright.
✌
rredtooth
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
5464 Posts
July 31 2009 15:53 GMT
#17
hot damn these are some ineteresting statistics.
good job.
[formerly sponsored by the artist formerly known as Gene]
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
July 31 2009 15:55 GMT
#18
Best part was definitely Finger Boom!

But nice dig up on stats. Now to find those who drag down TLs polling %.
God Bless
fnaticNoname
Profile Joined January 2008
India858 Posts
July 31 2009 15:56 GMT
#19
Thanks for this, I really enjoyed it
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
July 31 2009 16:14 GMT
#20
On August 01 2009 00:49 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2009 19:29 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Hmm, I thought this was a showmatch or something but definitely surprised me...
we're not that bad though.

Not that bad? .07% above 50% is pretty bad but I suppose if YGosu scored worse than us, we look alright.



This just shows how upset prone pro-gaming actually is. We're betting only .07% better than a coin flip right now.
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
22:00
Best Games of SC
Solar vs ByuN
MaxPax vs Solar
Rogue vs Percival
Cure vs Solar
herO vs Solar
PiGStarcraft12
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL
20:00
S22 - Ladder Tour #2
ZZZero.O92
LiquipediaDiscussion
LAN Event
16:30
StarCraft Madness
Airneanach60
Liquipedia
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
15:55
FSL semifinals: PTB vs ASH
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
elazer 338
Nathanias 104
CosmosSc2 95
SpeCial 73
Ketroc 56
PiGStarcraft12
Codebar 1
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 366
Dewaltoss 137
ZZZero.O 92
910 25
Dota 2
monkeys_forever308
LuMiX2
Counter-Strike
fl0m4683
shoxiejesuss2116
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe28
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor354
Other Games
Grubby3096
JimRising 443
byalli401
ceh9267
JuggernautJason53
Trikslyr42
ViBE39
Mew2King21
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick974
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream99
Other Games
BasetradeTV46
StarCraft 2
angryscii 37
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 17
• Adnapsc2 12
• Reevou 7
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki16
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21214
• WagamamaTV793
League of Legends
• Doublelift2605
Other Games
• imaqtpie1118
• Shiphtur221
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
11h 58m
herO vs MaxPax
Rogue vs TriGGeR
BSL
21h 58m
Replay Cast
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 11h
Sharp vs Scan
Rain vs Mong
Wardi Open
1d 13h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 18h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soulkey vs Ample
JyJ vs sSak
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
hero vs YSC
Larva vs Shine
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Team League
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Team League
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Zoun
WardiTV Team League
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-20
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
NationLESS Cup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
2026 Changsha Offline CUP
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.