• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:20
CEST 21:20
KST 04:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed4Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll2Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension1Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed Who will win EWC 2025? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone [Guide] MyStarcraft
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 721 users

TL LBetters vs YGosu Lottoers

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 15:58:13
July 31 2009 08:36 GMT
#1
WTF Is This?

About an hour ago I was watching the 3set of Canata-JD (fun game, btw) and saw MBCGame's usual "predict the winner" poll pop on to the screen (it read 77%-23% in favor of Jaedong). I began to wonder whether MBC's voters were smarter than TL's Liquibetting population, and then if Korean StarCraft fans in general were smarter than TL's (predominantly non-Korean) memberbase. The relative massiveness of Korea's SC fanbase must have two competing effects on its collective ability to predict game winners: on one hand, BW's popularity means Korean fans have easier access to interviews, statistics, professional-quality game analysis, and VODs; on the other, BW's mainstream-ness means the average Korean fan is probably less zealous than the average non-Korean Liquibetter.

After some poking around I was delighted to find that YGosu, TL's Korean sister site of sorts, has a voting system (which I think is called Lotto, based on its url) sort of similar to Liquibet (most importantly for my purpose, both systems incentivize "unbiased" voting by recognizing — or boosting the reputation of — accurate predictors).

I decided to pit TeamLiquid's Liquibetters against YGosu's Lottoers by comparing each group's collective predictive capability over the entire Bacchus OSL 2009 Ro16. The results of this little competition substantiate some interesting theories about the Korean and foreign SC fanbases and their perceptions of various OSL players — you can read those below, under "Conclusion".




Results

Here is the grand Liquibet vs. Lotto showdown's results (out of curiosity I decided to include my somewhat sorry LB history, in that third column on the right):

[image loading]

                                      + Show Spoiler [Graph Description] +
Columns on the right display the percent of the voting population (Liquibetters, Lotto players, me) that correctly predicted the result of the set listed at left. To make the graph easier to read, I've highlighted these cells to indicate prediction accuracy: the more green a cell is, the more accurate (closer to 1) its prediction was; the more red a cell is, the more inaccurate (closer to 0) its prediction was. The sets are ranked according to the success of TL's prediction of their winners.

As the above graph shows, TL just barely edges out YGosu in predictive capability over the OSL Ro16 — but neither site's voting population demonstrated itself to be significantly more intelligent than a monkey (perfectly random voter). Uhhh...let's preserve our dignity by chalking that up to this Ro16's many upsets.

Oh yes, and, of course, I spanked both TL and YGosu with a whopping 54% accuracy. FINGER BOOM!




Conclusion

Liquibets are consistently more one-sided than Lotto votes. I think this is due to a combination of two factors:
  1. Because TL is much smaller than YGosu, Liquibet is both easier to win and its winners probably receive more (local) prestige. Thus, Liquibetters are less likely to vote along fan lines. Less voting along fan lines means more uneven votes, because underdogs' total votes are less inflated by devoted (stupid) fans.
  2. When Liquibetters do vote along fan lines, they are much more likely to do so in unison than are Lottoers. I think our (foreign fans') relatively narrow exposure to the Korean BW scene has made us much more monolithic than Korean SC fans. Because we only have a few sources of independent news analysis (and these sources are deeply involved in, and thus influenced by, the foreign BW community) and we only have access to in-depth interviews and coverage of certain players, we tend to both favor mega-stars (favorites) and ignore new and seemingly personality-less players (underdogs) more than Korean fans.
Liquibetters' weakness: underestimating (Z)Yarnc. Two of TL's three most inaccurate predictions are Yarnc wins. YGosu didn't call these games right, either — but at least they were closer. This one makes sense, given Yarnc's recent results: we grossly underestimated him in Group A. (Honorable mention for this category goes to overestimating Kwanro, who Liquibetters incorrectly predicted to win both vs. hero and Canata.)

Lottoers' weakness: underestimating (T)fantasy. YGosu just isn't as enamored with Fantasy as we are here at TL, and it hurt them here. Stork had a 46% chance against Fantasy's TvP? BackHo 26%? Come on.

Liquibetters' strength: (T)go.go hate. Hot damn do we hate go.go...Liquibetters overwhelmingly picked him to lose in each of his three games, and hit the jackpot when he actually did (vs. ZerO, one of two games that TL called right but YGosu did not).

Lottoers' strength: (Z)type-b love. Holy crap, Lottoers actually picked Type-b to win two Ro16 games — and they were right both times. What did Korean fans know about Type-b that we didn't??

Fun facts:
  • According to Liquibetters, the OSL Ro16's biggest upset was Yarnc > Jaedong. According to Lottoers, it was go.go > Bisu.
  • According to Liquibetters, the OSL Ro16's most lopsided win was Fantasy > Type-b. According to Lottoers, it was Fantasy > BackHo. (So: according to both, Fantasy is a monster.)
  • Despite having a slightly worse overall prediction record, Lottoers actually called one more Ro16 game correctly (14/24) than Liquibetters (13/24) did. (TL's strength seems to be more overwhelmingly sticking to heavy favorites.)
  • Everyone overrated Hwasin. I think Zero > Hwasin was a pretty easy call, and was really surprised to see both TL and YGosu about 70% in favor of the Red Sniper. I guess people put too much stock in his TvZ?
✌
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10319 Posts
July 31 2009 08:57 GMT
#2
Wow sick write up o_o Cool. Thanks!
Peace~
cunninglinguists
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States925 Posts
July 31 2009 09:00 GMT
#3
woah insane. you have way to much time on your hands jwd.
Spenguin
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Australia3316 Posts
July 31 2009 09:01 GMT
#4
That was a really interesting read thanks for the work :D

5/5
< TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #46 > I came for the Brood War, I stayed for the people.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
July 31 2009 09:02 GMT
#5
On July 31 2009 18:00 cunninglinguists wrote:
woah insane. you have way to much time on your hands jwd.

Actually, I have no idea why I chose to do this over the many more important things I needed to take care of tonight. Good news is, it only took me a small fraction of the time it takes to write one news post or PR.
✌
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
July 31 2009 09:07 GMT
#6
Hah, this is pretty cool.

I wonder if we could go back and analyze previous seasons?

Thanks for the infos.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
pachi
Profile Joined October 2006
Melbourne5338 Posts
July 31 2009 09:23 GMT
#7
Isn't YGosu's betting system based on betting points much like GG.net's gosubet system?
Moderatorpachi fanclub http://goto.tl/6DI9 。◕‿◕。
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
July 31 2009 09:25 GMT
#8
A pretty good write-up JWD, thanks for the info

feels good to be smarter than the koreans
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
July 31 2009 09:29 GMT
#9
very nice information. I'm impressed. Good job tl, for having better voting percentages ^^ (barely...)
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 15:46:09
July 31 2009 09:31 GMT
#10
On July 31 2009 18:23 pachi wrote:
Isn't YGosu's betting system based on betting points much like GG.net's gosubet system?

Actually I think you're right — there are mentions of Minerals on YGosu's voting pages. If it's bizarre or complex this format could mess with my ideas about YGosu's voting habits...
✌
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10692 Posts
July 31 2009 09:36 GMT
#11
Intresting

How does this comparison look compared to GG.net?
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
July 31 2009 10:01 GMT
#12
i voted for TyPe B HYAHA!! :D:DD

i never knew there waas this lotto thing before
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
demonic_phate
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States442 Posts
July 31 2009 10:08 GMT
#13
very cool seeing the comparison between the korean and foreign fan communities
also cool to see KT's new name being put to good use
FINGER *BOOOOM*
BusyP
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
July 31 2009 10:29 GMT
#14
Hmm, I thought this was a showmatch or something but definitely surprised me...
we're not that bad though.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 10:37:51
July 31 2009 10:36 GMT
#15
How did they know about type-b's skill?
I really didn't think he would come up but he's already one game up on Leta @.@
And Leta isn't using 2port against him either, so he must have played so many times against it in practice that Leta is scared to use it.

I wonder why we hate go.go
He's not a bad player at all, even if he cheeses and bad manners often.

Thanks for this JWD, it was pretty interesting.
Sullifam
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-01 03:30:50
July 31 2009 15:49 GMT
#16
On July 31 2009 19:29 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Hmm, I thought this was a showmatch or something but definitely surprised me...
we're not that bad though.

Not that bad? .7% above 50% is pretty bad but I suppose if YGosu scored worse than us, we look alright.
✌
rredtooth
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
5459 Posts
July 31 2009 15:53 GMT
#17
hot damn these are some ineteresting statistics.
good job.
[formerly sponsored by the artist formerly known as Gene]
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
July 31 2009 15:55 GMT
#18
Best part was definitely Finger Boom!

But nice dig up on stats. Now to find those who drag down TLs polling %.
God Bless
fnaticNoname
Profile Joined January 2008
India858 Posts
July 31 2009 15:56 GMT
#19
Thanks for this, I really enjoyed it
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
July 31 2009 16:14 GMT
#20
On August 01 2009 00:49 JWD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2009 19:29 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Hmm, I thought this was a showmatch or something but definitely surprised me...
we're not that bad though.

Not that bad? .07% above 50% is pretty bad but I suppose if YGosu scored worse than us, we look alright.



This just shows how upset prone pro-gaming actually is. We're betting only .07% better than a coin flip right now.
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti Stream Rumble 5k Edition
RotterdaM835
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 857
mouzHeroMarine 546
BRAT_OK 98
JuggernautJason44
MindelVK 29
ZombieGrub24
gerald23 20
Nathanias 4
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 1748
Sea 1099
Larva 1072
firebathero 698
BeSt 470
Shinee 56
Rock 32
Shine 11
IntoTheRainbow 10
ivOry 9
Stormgate
NightEnD1
Dota 2
qojqva3834
League of Legends
Grubby3905
Counter-Strike
fl0m1457
pashabiceps612
flusha340
Stewie2K78
Foxcn1
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King117
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor271
Liquid`Hasu240
Other Games
Beastyqt780
ceh9539
ToD225
KnowMe174
oskar95
Hui .95
QueenE72
Sick67
Trikslyr62
FunKaTv 48
Pyrionflax45
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick5084
StarCraft 2
angryscii 25
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 172
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 24
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2739
League of Legends
• Nemesis6239
Other Games
• imaqtpie1744
• Shiphtur492
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
4h 40m
Replay Cast
14h 40m
WardiTV European League
20h 40m
ShoWTimE vs sebesdes
Percival vs NightPhoenix
Shameless vs Nicoract
Krystianer vs Scarlett
ByuN vs uThermal
Harstem vs HeRoMaRinE
PiGosaur Monday
1d 4h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Epic.LAN
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
[ Show More ]
Epic.LAN
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Online Event
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.