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Hi guys,
Is there any reason why Bisu with that many corsair ends up using 0 dwebs? Am I blind or is there something I don't understand that why pros don't use it? Especially the map being island, when dropping on to the island wouldn't it be safer for the shuttle to neglect some of the anti-air damage?
Also sieging into sunken lurker wouldn't that be good?
The ratio or count of reaver seems low as well, Larva played out of his mind for sure, but Bisu seems like .... hard to say, it feels weird what he was doing, didn't make sense to me.
Anyone else feel the same?
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Mmm, you mean first game?
Beacon fleet costs a lot, doesn it …
I actually thought he totally misplayed it by not making arbiters.
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Fleet Beacon - 300/200
Disruption Web - 200/200
So 500/400.
While the spell is strong, it doesn't really make sense to invest in unless the Protoss player is planning on going Carriers, and then the player is probably just better off making another Stargate, buying a carrier, or getting an air upgrade.
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Honestly I feel like there's merit to the fleet beacon not just for dweb but also for additional air upgrades. Being stuck on +1 weapons vs +2 carapace is not a great place for your corsairs to be at.
Regardless, it's not the most well explored gameplan, and Bisu seemed like he really wanted to end the game rather than drag it on.
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I think Bisu is very bad at in game adaptation. That's it. Plan fails, but he bangs his head against the wall hoping to break through. Sometimes works, mostly doesn't.
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United States10213 Posts
Bisu's decisions trying to break Larva's 3/4th bases while he was heavily reinforced in both areas by abusing the chokes was a pretty big mistake from Bisu. Plus, Larva's tech into ensnare meant even if the sairs got better upgrades, Larva could still find ways to scourge trap the sairs like he did .
I thought Arbiter shouldve been a more serious consideration for Bisu. Yes the gas cost is pretty prohibitive but he had 4 gas as well. Zerg is really great when they're the one waiting for you to run into them, but recalling a hefty force on top of Zerg means Zerg has to come to you.
I also found it odd that after securing the first island that he did not attempt to press the air advantage and get as much money out of the islands as possible, but perhaps he was worried about greater spire tech and getting into heavy air fights, given that Zergs seem to be teching into queen and ensnare more and more on this map.
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On October 04 2025 02:29 FlaShFTW wrote:
Bisu's decisions trying to break Larva's 3/4th bases while he was heavily reinforced in both areas by abusing the chokes was a pretty big mistake from Bisu. Plus, Larva's tech into ensnare meant even if the sairs got better upgrades, Larva could still find ways to scourge trap the sairs like he did .
I thought Arbiter shouldve been a more serious consideration for Bisu. Yes the gas cost is pretty prohibitive but he had 4 gas as well. Zerg is really great when they're the one waiting for you to run into them, but recalling a hefty force on top of Zerg means Zerg has to come to you.
I also found it odd that after securing the first island that he did not attempt to press the air advantage and get as much money out of the islands as possible, but perhaps he was worried about greater spire tech and getting into heavy air fights, given that Zergs seem to be teching into queen and ensnare more and more on this map.
I like your take. I just don't understand why he would be worried about commiting to heavy air fights. If both go full air, zerg doesn't stand a chance.
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On October 04 2025 03:13 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2025 02:29 FlaShFTW wrote:
Bisu's decisions trying to break Larva's 3/4th bases while he was heavily reinforced in both areas by abusing the chokes was a pretty big mistake from Bisu. Plus, Larva's tech into ensnare meant even if the sairs got better upgrades, Larva could still find ways to scourge trap the sairs like he did .
I thought Arbiter shouldve been a more serious consideration for Bisu. Yes the gas cost is pretty prohibitive but he had 4 gas as well. Zerg is really great when they're the one waiting for you to run into them, but recalling a hefty force on top of Zerg means Zerg has to come to you.
I also found it odd that after securing the first island that he did not attempt to press the air advantage and get as much money out of the islands as possible, but perhaps he was worried about greater spire tech and getting into heavy air fights, given that Zergs seem to be teching into queen and ensnare more and more on this map. I like your take. I just don't understand why he would be worried about commiting to heavy air fights. If both go full air, zerg doesn't stand a chance.
Agree with flash but also devourer absolutely demolish corsairs. So you need to press the air advantage fast. Fleet beacon+dweb was not a great option before larva took the islands imo as bisu was doing ok enough with his shuttle then and bisu gameplan should have been to harass and expand (as he did, just not to the islands, weirdly) and not go heavy dweb/reavers. After that with ensnare out and +2 carapace vs his +1 air the window is closed.
Interested in S rank P opinions though on this.
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On October 04 2025 06:44 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2025 03:13 Miragee wrote:On October 04 2025 02:29 FlaShFTW wrote:
Bisu's decisions trying to break Larva's 3/4th bases while he was heavily reinforced in both areas by abusing the chokes was a pretty big mistake from Bisu. Plus, Larva's tech into ensnare meant even if the sairs got better upgrades, Larva could still find ways to scourge trap the sairs like he did .
I thought Arbiter shouldve been a more serious consideration for Bisu. Yes the gas cost is pretty prohibitive but he had 4 gas as well. Zerg is really great when they're the one waiting for you to run into them, but recalling a hefty force on top of Zerg means Zerg has to come to you.
I also found it odd that after securing the first island that he did not attempt to press the air advantage and get as much money out of the islands as possible, but perhaps he was worried about greater spire tech and getting into heavy air fights, given that Zergs seem to be teching into queen and ensnare more and more on this map. I like your take. I just don't understand why he would be worried about commiting to heavy air fights. If both go full air, zerg doesn't stand a chance. Agree with flash but also devourer absolutely demolish corsairs. So you need to press the air advantage fast. Fleet beacon+dweb was not a great option before larva took the islands imo as bisu was doing ok enough with his shuttle then and bisu gameplan should have been to harass and expand (as he did, just not to the islands, weirdly) and not go heavy dweb/reavers. After that with ensnare out and +2 carapace vs his +1 air the window is closed. Interested in S rank P opinions though on this.
I mean, if zerg goes devourers, then protoss can go carriers. I know we don't see that ever because carriers are not that great against a normal zerg army and the match up is way to volatile to allow for a switch under normal conditions. However, on a map with many islands, if the zerg techs into devourers, I think protoss can go carriers. And carrier/corsair absolutely demolishes any zerg air.
I would also be interested in S rank P opinions on this. I wouldn't take it as gospel because I assume it's uncharted territory for most of them as well. But they still have a much better understanding of transitioning times, weak points etc.
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On October 04 2025 00:00 seRapH wrote:
Honestly I feel like there's merit to the fleet beacon not just for dweb but also for additional air upgrades. Being stuck on +1 weapons vs +2 carapace is not a great place for your corsairs to be at.
Regardless, it's not the most well explored gameplan, and Bisu seemed like he really wanted to end the game rather than drag it on.
Something u guys maybe knew deep inside:
https://ibb.co/1JYXp7CH
the central circle receives 100% damage, then the outer 50%, then 25% (same goes for most splash type units)
So while, in example above, both protoss and zerg upgrades their attack / carapace by 2, this change benefits zerg player more.
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I actually think roaring currents is zerg favoured tbh.
on the continental side of the map: protoss cant really attack into zerg because its across a bridge, up a ramp, or into a choke. Those bases mine out quickly as well which favours zerg. It gives zerg a stable enough of an economy to contest for the islands. The thing about island/air play in broodwar is: zerg is weak because of oppurtunity cost, but actually has the strongest potential. Queens for parasite/ensnare, muta, devourer, scourge, plague, dark swarm, nydus canal, cracklings, lurkers and hydras...this is an amazingly powerful force. Obviously protoss has its own late game technical army (dweb/arbiter/carrier) to contest with buuuut: because the continental bases dry up relatively fast I'm not sure protoss can safely tech transition without giving the zerg initiative.
Its basically: you cant punish the zerg on land, which gives them a lot of attacking potential either on your land bases or your islands and you cant be quite sure which way there going to go. If you over-invest in one aspect of defence, you get rolled elsewhere. Your initial air advantage is powerful but will dissipate once zerg is stabilized on four gas, and transitions to higher tech both take a while and expose you in the meantime. I think Bisu's solution was to lean on larva with harass and then hit a timing in order to forestall the zerg economic explosion which he couldn't handle in the late game. Larva showed pretty well why that gameplan isnt something you can really rely on.
But what was the alternative? If he hadn't tried for a hanbang and started to transition sooner to late game air, Larva could have contested air that much faster and or started hitting his land bases. After Bisu's timing failed to keep Larva suppressed I feel like he was in a bit of a desperation situation and thats why he kept going for these attacks. He knew how hard a transition would be and gambled his best option was to avoid it. I honestly can understand the decision, giving zerg breathing room on an air map would be fucking terrifying.
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He should have gone for fleet beacon anyway to get better upgrades.
In my noob opinion, Bisu should’ve played this like he played on andromeda. Corsair reaver into dweb and carriers.
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Because his strategy was to bust the zerg with reavers, through a ground attack. It didn't work, hindsight is always 20/20.
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I've seen bisu use dweb and reavers/carriers on that map vs jaedong in a proleague game last month. It was very effective as well.
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On October 04 2025 22:59 Ze'ev wrote:
I actually think roaring currents is zerg favoured tbh.
on the continental side of the map: protoss cant really attack into zerg because its across a bridge, up a ramp, or into a choke. Those bases mine out quickly as well which favours zerg. It gives zerg a stable enough of an economy to contest for the islands. The thing about island/air play in broodwar is: zerg is weak because of oppurtunity cost, but actually has the strongest potential. Queens for parasite/ensnare, muta, devourer, scourge, plague, dark swarm, nydus canal, cracklings, lurkers and hydras...this is an amazingly powerful force. Obviously protoss has its own late game technical army (dweb/arbiter/carrier) to contest with buuuut: because the continental bases dry up relatively fast I'm not sure protoss can safely tech transition without giving the zerg initiative.
Its basically: you cant punish the zerg on land, which gives them a lot of attacking potential either on your land bases or your islands and you cant be quite sure which way there going to go. If you over-invest in one aspect of defence, you get rolled elsewhere. Your initial air advantage is powerful but will dissipate once zerg is stabilized on four gas, and transitions to higher tech both take a while and expose you in the meantime. I think Bisu's solution was to lean on larva with harass and then hit a timing in order to forestall the zerg economic explosion which he couldn't handle in the late game. Larva showed pretty well why that gameplan isnt something you can really rely on.
But what was the alternative? If he hadn't tried for a hanbang and started to transition sooner to late game air, Larva could have contested air that much faster and or started hitting his land bases. After Bisu's timing failed to keep Larva suppressed I feel like he was in a bit of a desperation situation and thats why he kept going for these attacks. He knew how hard a transition would be and gambled his best option was to avoid it. I honestly can understand the decision, giving zerg breathing room on an air map would be fucking terrifying.
Roaring Currents might be Zerg favored in ZvP because they get 4 bases for free, but I've seen a single game where Protoss went Corsair/Reaver, used their air dominance to take the islands, then steamrolled a 6 base Zerg who had Devourers with Carriers. With high ground, Cannons, and some Reavers or maybe Disruption Web, that feels extremely hard to hydra bust, but for some reason no Protoss players have attempted to repeat that.
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You are looking at it after the fact, bisu's plan ended after his fail ground push.
The follow-up mass shuttle (and sair) was most likely made up on the spot because it fit with the gateways (and 2 stargates) count already present, praying for the best. (and it had some success, those storm were great !).
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On October 06 2025 00:30 Ideas wrote:
I've seen bisu use dweb and reavers/carriers on that map vs jaedong in a proleague game last month. It was very effective as well.
Could you post a link
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I didn't watch the game ppl are talking about going carrier in that map but i cannot imagine how to make that possible. Carrier transition is far too committed and opens a big window where protoss is fragile. IMO only works vs terran cuz T is heavily timed oriented and P can delay pushes while getting interceptors. Also with 2 carriers u already can support ground units vs T while u still gaing time to get critical number of carriers. But vs zerg it is totally different position. Zerg pushes are increadibly fast once zerg notices that P doesn't have enough ground units to contest map control. And it takes ages for getting carriers and is hard to do anything with low carrier quantity vs mass scourge with carapace +2. I think u can only go carrier if u are ahead. But u give chance to the zerg to close the gap if u go carrier. This is my noob opinion.
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Carriers can work on an island map. It is in fact the ultimate composition vZ, and the only one I can think of where P can manage a supply deficit to a win consistently. Yes, you lose all map control, but your focus are the islands, your natural, and counter drop measures in your main. Reavers are great for all those things.
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EPT
