• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:59
CEST 22:59
KST 05:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon110
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double Recent Patches and the Future Stellar Fest 1 Replay Pack Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) 2026 GSTL Grand Finals SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ] ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder a Announcement on the JEDI Ringing Where can I find Flash replays that work? BW General Discussion [ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine All you football fans (soccer)! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6853 users

SC/BW: The Success

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
pangshai
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Chinatown5333 Posts
August 07 2007 12:55 GMT
#1
I found this post in the "Heroes in Warcraft III" thread by fusionsdf, and I thought it deserved its very own thread. Waited a couple of days for someone else to create it, as I'm not very good with words myself, and I thought someone else would be able to think of a more attractive topic title that'd do this post justice. This post is copmletely written by fusion, and I've in no part editted or removed anything.

On July 24 2007 17:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2007 08:31 Judicator wrote:
On July 23 2007 20:26 Orlandu wrote:
Well, heroes are cool, but they make proper balancing really hard. That's probably the biggest reason why they shouldn't be in SC2.

When you include heroes into the equation, counters become very, very complex since you can't just use unit vs unit logic anymore.


While thats true, I am semi-hoping that SC2 would take the balancing lessons learned in War3 and improve on the hero concept to make the games not as unit x counters unit y.
I want to say improved units similar to the experience system in RA2, basically giving a reward for unit preservation other than just the unit didn't die.

I mean SC/BW revolutionized the RTS genre, I don't see anything that special about SC2 other than its SC2 and I certainly don't see why Blizzard can make an attempt at it.

SC revolutionized the RTS genre how? Please give me just ONE example. I'm not even sure it was the first game to have 3 different races..?


Dune would technically be the first rts with three races, however, the three races only differed in a few units (infantry, special units).

Warwind, which also had the first creeps, was the first with four asymmetrical races in 1996. It was also single-player driven, and never really got off the ground as far as competitive exposure goes. It had fog of war. If you are looking for a game full of innovation, I can think of no better example.
(http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warwind/review.html?sid=2531768) (http://www.csoon.com/issue19/warwind.htm)

So Starcraft can be said to be the first successful asymmetrical rts designed for competitive play.
:D

IIRC, it was also one of the first RTS with extensive voice acting - although this is arguable. Warcraft (the original) had basic voice acting in game, and voice-over campaign intros as early as 1994.



The only real thing starcraft had going for it in voice acting, was a greater amount of voice actors, and extended in game speech, which is quite debatable as revolutionary.

---

Starcraft wasnt the first with a map editor either. Warcraft 2 had that.
(info here: http://www.battle.net/war2/basic/map.shtml).

Visually, although Starcraft was beautiful, implemented 16 degrees of direction, and isometric topography and sprite transparency - it was also already, in some respects, behind the times. Total annhilation had very basic 3D terrain; climbable mountains with multiple angles or approach instead of Starcraft's ramps that only fit into two specific angles and required specific positions - 2D with impassable walls and graphic tricks to provide a 3d appearance.

Games like Settlers 3 already looked like this (in 1998):
[image loading]

[image loading]


---

Gamespot gave Starcraft a 9.1 (compared to a 8.8 for warwinds in 1996, and a 9.3 for wc2) ironically giving it the lowest category score in gameplay with an 8.
"Weighed on its own merits, Starcraft is an extremely well-crafted game, albeit one with a few notable problems. It doesn't stray far from the blueprint created by its predecessors (namely the Warcrafts and Command & Conquers), but it is, without a doubt, the best game to ever adhere to that formula."
--http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/starcraft/review.html?mode=gsreview
(well worth reading for humor value alone)

So why is StarCraft so incerdibly popular? Why does it make top 100 Lists of all-time games (even if IGN's top 100 was incredibly shitty)?
How can it be so popular in competitive play to award players 200K contracts, and popular enough in semi-competitive play to make "zerg rush" an established piece of pop culture?

---

Starcraft didnt have the closeness to 3D that CnC and Total Annihilation had.
But it didnt play like this either

Starcraft had up-to-date, clean graphics, but on top of that it had blistering speed. It's gameplay was initially knocked by some reviewers precisely because of that speed - the vulnerability, not just 20 minutes in, but 5 minutes in.

"Multiplayer has its own set of negatives, the major one being the predominance of rushing. Like it or not, creating a horde of the most basic units and attacking the enemy immediately is an effective tactic. Only a heavily defended base will survive an early rush of Terran Marines or Protoss Zealots"

In what other RTS game of that era, are plays like 5-pools and proxy-gates semi-regular occurences? How many games of that era made an absence of attacking in the first 5 minutes seem unusual?

Total Annihilation had 3D, but starcraft had a simplified system based around speed, tactical positioning, and basic precepts.
"The terrain in Starcraft is simplified; it's composed solely of ground on one of two levels (you have an upper and lower level, connected by conspicuous ramps) or open areas that can only be crossed by flying units. Since there are no naval units, rivers and seas may as well be open space. Trees offer cover for smaller units by giving them a defensive bonus, but this is one of Starcraft's better-kept secrets; you'll find people who've finished the game and never knew this. Also, units firing from above get a bonus. Otherwise, the maps are merely colorful backgrounds. While this could be perceived as a shortcoming, I feel it streamlines the game by allowing players to concentrate on unit management without suffering from task overload."
http://pc.ign.com/articles/080/080334p1.html

It is this constant task-overload that keeps players active, excited, and establishes the skill-gap between the novice and the expert.

In a time-period where many games lasted for close to an hour each, the method of starcraft was intentionally different: Get them in, Get them entertained, Get them out and right back in. Wham, bam thank you ma'am.

---

Original Warcraft has a maddeningly dumb AI, a 4 unit selection cap (which was unintuitive), and most importantly expected a player to only build from one barracks at a time.

War winds provided innovations galore, but mixed it with a single-player focus and development effort spent on puzzle elements.

Starcraft was based off of multiple production facilities, where most games expected one barracks, one hand of nod, one archery range. It had a forgiving goldilocks-style unit limit. It had a selection limit of twelve, a lack of unit stances which required the player to carefully watch all of his units. The focus on multiple production centers forced the player to constantly watch their base as well. One idle barracks is a disadvantage. 6 is a disaster.

In summary, Starcraft didn't succeed because of innovation, or graphics or neat-looking 'features'. It succeeded because "Starcraft may not do anything particularly new, but it does the real-time thing as well or better than any game before it."
It succeeded because of this:



Games as early as warcraft provided 'features' such as missed shots, while many other such as TA and CnC provided 'stances' - preset AI behaviours which allowed the computer to decide how individual units would attack in a way more sophiticated than hold position, attack move, move and patrol.
"There's a waypoint system, patrolling, and the like - but many of these options aren't particularly well implemented, and some of the options seem tacked on.[...]Starcraft most notably lacks the ability to define unit behavior (as in Dark Reign or Total Annihilation), leading to much micromanagement."
Many of those same games had beautiful, but ultimately distracting graphics.

Starcraft, with its elimination of AI hand-holding, limitless selection caps, along with the constant need for player interaction to make up for early vulnerability, created fast, exciting multiplayer games with a variety of offensive choices and no safety blankets. It changed rts into an active game.


[image loading]


---

Release dates:
Starcraft: 04/01/98
Total Annihilation: 09/30/97
Settlers 3: 11/30/98
Command & Conquer: 08/31/95
[image loading]
#1 midas fan
Jathin
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3505 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 12:57:52
August 07 2007 12:57 GMT
#2
--- Nuked ---
Locked
Profile Joined September 2004
United States4182 Posts
August 07 2007 12:58 GMT
#3
lol yeah i saw that

he spent way too much effort on it to go unnoticed in some random wc3 thread in sports and games that noone will see
UMS map pack http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50442
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 13:01:27
August 07 2007 13:00 GMT
#4
Great writeup and read, good job making it known
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
August 07 2007 13:03 GMT
#5
Oh wow. Thank you
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia2330 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 13:11:58
August 07 2007 13:09 GMT
#6
Starcraft is pretty much just Warcraft 2++: In Space. That's not a bad thing though because Warcraft 2 had great basic gameplay, it just didn't have the variety of races and units that SC does.

edit: and yes Starcraft's reviews were mostly bullshit (even the really positive ones) because 99.9% of games journalists are gigantic newbs at RTS.
Furthermore, tournaments should use matchup-specific maps
H
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
New Zealand6138 Posts
August 07 2007 13:13 GMT
#7
Impressive.
[iHs]HCO | のヮの | pachi & plexa ownz | RIP _
5HITCOMBO
Profile Joined March 2006
Japan2239 Posts
August 07 2007 13:14 GMT
#8
On August 07 2007 22:09 gravity wrote:
Starcraft is pretty much just Warcraft 2++: In Space. That's not a bad thing though because Warcraft 2 had great basic gameplay, it just didn't have the variety of races and units that SC does.

edit: and yes Starcraft's reviews were mostly bullshit (even the really positive ones) because 99.9% of games journalists are gigantic newbs at RTS.

"THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT IN SPACE..."
I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia2330 Posts
August 07 2007 13:16 GMT
#9
On August 07 2007 22:14 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2007 22:09 gravity wrote:
Starcraft is pretty much just Warcraft 2++: In Space. That's not a bad thing though because Warcraft 2 had great basic gameplay, it just didn't have the variety of races and units that SC does.

edit: and yes Starcraft's reviews were mostly bullshit (even the really positive ones) because 99.9% of games journalists are gigantic newbs at RTS.

"THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT IN SPACE..."

It isn't "Warcraft in Space" in the way people originally meant that complaint, but the base gameplay (not the specific strategies, obviously) is strongly based on WC2, but with a lot more variety.
Furthermore, tournaments should use matchup-specific maps
CustomXSpunjah
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1093 Posts
August 07 2007 13:22 GMT
#10
"Weighed on its own merits, Starcraft is an extremely well-crafted game, albeit one with a few notable problems. It doesn't stray far from the blueprint created by its predecessors (namely the Warcrafts and Command & Conquers), but it is, without a doubt, the best game to ever adhere to that formula."

let me repeat:
"but it is, without a doubt, the best game to ever adhere to that formula."
Not only did it adhere to the RTS formula set forth by CnC and Wc, it PERFECTED it. Perfect balanced mixed with multiple options of strategy made this game what it is now. Not the "stunning" graphics or the voices of the units, but instead the balanced play and perfect controls.
beware, the rise of the Protoss is upon us!
useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
August 07 2007 14:32 GMT
#11
Summary: BW is fun and balanced.
Moonlight Shadow
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32282 Posts
August 07 2007 14:45 GMT
#12
1 word: awrsdrsome
Moderator<:3-/-<
[jOyO]
Profile Joined July 2006
United States920 Posts
August 07 2007 14:53 GMT
#13
no other game has lasted 11 years i am pretty sure. (and still is popular after the 11 years)
You must notta heard me PARTNA!
Pressure
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
7326 Posts
August 07 2007 14:58 GMT
#14
good thing you brought back a good post
mel_ee
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
2450 Posts
August 07 2007 15:06 GMT
#15
On August 07 2007 23:45 IntoTheWow wrote:
1 word: awrsdrsome
Behold the bold soldier, control the globe slowly proceeds to blow swingin swords like Shinobi
ArC_man
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States2798 Posts
August 07 2007 15:21 GMT
#16
On August 07 2007 23:53 [jOyO] wrote:
no other game has lasted 11 years i am pretty sure. (and still is popular after the 11 years)

Street fighter 2
Sadir
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Vatican City State1176 Posts
August 07 2007 15:39 GMT
#17
On August 07 2007 21:57 Jathin wrote:
Professional gaming wouldn't exist without SC.

6 word answer (7 if you count the apostrophe as a word)


I have no clue about conterstrike, but doesn't a pro scene exist there too
and where is more money? in BW or CS?
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13526 Posts
August 07 2007 16:18 GMT
#18
Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be more in BW.

CS is very popular worldwide, but I don't think it has the same amount of money in it.

Of course I'm basing this is fanboyism purely, so I'll prob get shot down (hoho I used a pun!) by CS spies.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
August 07 2007 16:49 GMT
#19
Fusion, that was a great read. Thanks
returns upon momentous occasions.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
August 07 2007 16:51 GMT
#20
AWRSDRSOME
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 532
JuggernautJason33
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 662
Dewaltoss 110
firebathero 92
Zeus 69
Trap 41
910 30
Bale 26
NaDa 25
Dota 2
monkeys_forever331
Counter-Strike
edward134
Super Smash Bros
ArmadaUGS121
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby4812
Liquid`Hasu2036
Other Games
summit1g5954
shahzam455
byalli448
C9.Mang0176
KnowMe134
UpATreeSC88
Chillindude29
Trikslyr24
Railgan18
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV213
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream201
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 77
• Adnapsc2 17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 29
• Azhi_Dahaki25
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• Shiphtur324
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
3h 1m
Kung Fu Cup
14h 1m
Stellar Fest
16h 1m
The PondCast
1d 13h
OSC
1d 16h
Stellar Fest
1d 16h
OSC
2 days
Stellar Fest
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Online Event
3 days
[ Show More ]
FEL
3 days
AI Arena Tournament
3 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
INu's Battles
4 days
herO vs Classic
Percival vs Rogue
BSL Open Qualifier
4 days
BSL Open Qualifier
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
INu's Battles
6 days
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-27
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.