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SC/BW: The Success

Forum Index > BW General
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pangshai
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Chinatown5333 Posts
August 07 2007 12:55 GMT
#1
I found this post in the "Heroes in Warcraft III" thread by fusionsdf, and I thought it deserved its very own thread. Waited a couple of days for someone else to create it, as I'm not very good with words myself, and I thought someone else would be able to think of a more attractive topic title that'd do this post justice. This post is copmletely written by fusion, and I've in no part editted or removed anything.

On July 24 2007 17:10 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2007 08:31 Judicator wrote:
On July 23 2007 20:26 Orlandu wrote:
Well, heroes are cool, but they make proper balancing really hard. That's probably the biggest reason why they shouldn't be in SC2.

When you include heroes into the equation, counters become very, very complex since you can't just use unit vs unit logic anymore.


While thats true, I am semi-hoping that SC2 would take the balancing lessons learned in War3 and improve on the hero concept to make the games not as unit x counters unit y.
I want to say improved units similar to the experience system in RA2, basically giving a reward for unit preservation other than just the unit didn't die.

I mean SC/BW revolutionized the RTS genre, I don't see anything that special about SC2 other than its SC2 and I certainly don't see why Blizzard can make an attempt at it.

SC revolutionized the RTS genre how? Please give me just ONE example. I'm not even sure it was the first game to have 3 different races..?


Dune would technically be the first rts with three races, however, the three races only differed in a few units (infantry, special units).

Warwind, which also had the first creeps, was the first with four asymmetrical races in 1996. It was also single-player driven, and never really got off the ground as far as competitive exposure goes. It had fog of war. If you are looking for a game full of innovation, I can think of no better example.
(http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warwind/review.html?sid=2531768) (http://www.csoon.com/issue19/warwind.htm)

So Starcraft can be said to be the first successful asymmetrical rts designed for competitive play.
:D

IIRC, it was also one of the first RTS with extensive voice acting - although this is arguable. Warcraft (the original) had basic voice acting in game, and voice-over campaign intros as early as 1994.



The only real thing starcraft had going for it in voice acting, was a greater amount of voice actors, and extended in game speech, which is quite debatable as revolutionary.

---

Starcraft wasnt the first with a map editor either. Warcraft 2 had that.
(info here: http://www.battle.net/war2/basic/map.shtml).

Visually, although Starcraft was beautiful, implemented 16 degrees of direction, and isometric topography and sprite transparency - it was also already, in some respects, behind the times. Total annhilation had very basic 3D terrain; climbable mountains with multiple angles or approach instead of Starcraft's ramps that only fit into two specific angles and required specific positions - 2D with impassable walls and graphic tricks to provide a 3d appearance.

Games like Settlers 3 already looked like this (in 1998):
[image loading]

[image loading]


---

Gamespot gave Starcraft a 9.1 (compared to a 8.8 for warwinds in 1996, and a 9.3 for wc2) ironically giving it the lowest category score in gameplay with an 8.
"Weighed on its own merits, Starcraft is an extremely well-crafted game, albeit one with a few notable problems. It doesn't stray far from the blueprint created by its predecessors (namely the Warcrafts and Command & Conquers), but it is, without a doubt, the best game to ever adhere to that formula."
--http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/starcraft/review.html?mode=gsreview
(well worth reading for humor value alone)

So why is StarCraft so incerdibly popular? Why does it make top 100 Lists of all-time games (even if IGN's top 100 was incredibly shitty)?
How can it be so popular in competitive play to award players 200K contracts, and popular enough in semi-competitive play to make "zerg rush" an established piece of pop culture?

---

Starcraft didnt have the closeness to 3D that CnC and Total Annihilation had.
But it didnt play like this either

Starcraft had up-to-date, clean graphics, but on top of that it had blistering speed. It's gameplay was initially knocked by some reviewers precisely because of that speed - the vulnerability, not just 20 minutes in, but 5 minutes in.

"Multiplayer has its own set of negatives, the major one being the predominance of rushing. Like it or not, creating a horde of the most basic units and attacking the enemy immediately is an effective tactic. Only a heavily defended base will survive an early rush of Terran Marines or Protoss Zealots"

In what other RTS game of that era, are plays like 5-pools and proxy-gates semi-regular occurences? How many games of that era made an absence of attacking in the first 5 minutes seem unusual?

Total Annihilation had 3D, but starcraft had a simplified system based around speed, tactical positioning, and basic precepts.
"The terrain in Starcraft is simplified; it's composed solely of ground on one of two levels (you have an upper and lower level, connected by conspicuous ramps) or open areas that can only be crossed by flying units. Since there are no naval units, rivers and seas may as well be open space. Trees offer cover for smaller units by giving them a defensive bonus, but this is one of Starcraft's better-kept secrets; you'll find people who've finished the game and never knew this. Also, units firing from above get a bonus. Otherwise, the maps are merely colorful backgrounds. While this could be perceived as a shortcoming, I feel it streamlines the game by allowing players to concentrate on unit management without suffering from task overload."
http://pc.ign.com/articles/080/080334p1.html

It is this constant task-overload that keeps players active, excited, and establishes the skill-gap between the novice and the expert.

In a time-period where many games lasted for close to an hour each, the method of starcraft was intentionally different: Get them in, Get them entertained, Get them out and right back in. Wham, bam thank you ma'am.

---

Original Warcraft has a maddeningly dumb AI, a 4 unit selection cap (which was unintuitive), and most importantly expected a player to only build from one barracks at a time.

War winds provided innovations galore, but mixed it with a single-player focus and development effort spent on puzzle elements.

Starcraft was based off of multiple production facilities, where most games expected one barracks, one hand of nod, one archery range. It had a forgiving goldilocks-style unit limit. It had a selection limit of twelve, a lack of unit stances which required the player to carefully watch all of his units. The focus on multiple production centers forced the player to constantly watch their base as well. One idle barracks is a disadvantage. 6 is a disaster.

In summary, Starcraft didn't succeed because of innovation, or graphics or neat-looking 'features'. It succeeded because "Starcraft may not do anything particularly new, but it does the real-time thing as well or better than any game before it."
It succeeded because of this:



Games as early as warcraft provided 'features' such as missed shots, while many other such as TA and CnC provided 'stances' - preset AI behaviours which allowed the computer to decide how individual units would attack in a way more sophiticated than hold position, attack move, move and patrol.
"There's a waypoint system, patrolling, and the like - but many of these options aren't particularly well implemented, and some of the options seem tacked on.[...]Starcraft most notably lacks the ability to define unit behavior (as in Dark Reign or Total Annihilation), leading to much micromanagement."
Many of those same games had beautiful, but ultimately distracting graphics.

Starcraft, with its elimination of AI hand-holding, limitless selection caps, along with the constant need for player interaction to make up for early vulnerability, created fast, exciting multiplayer games with a variety of offensive choices and no safety blankets. It changed rts into an active game.


[image loading]


---

Release dates:
Starcraft: 04/01/98
Total Annihilation: 09/30/97
Settlers 3: 11/30/98
Command & Conquer: 08/31/95
[image loading]
#1 midas fan
Jathin
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3505 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 12:57:52
August 07 2007 12:57 GMT
#2
--- Nuked ---
Locked
Profile Joined September 2004
United States4182 Posts
August 07 2007 12:58 GMT
#3
lol yeah i saw that

he spent way too much effort on it to go unnoticed in some random wc3 thread in sports and games that noone will see
UMS map pack http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50442
Superiorwolf
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States5509 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 13:01:27
August 07 2007 13:00 GMT
#4
Great writeup and read, good job making it known
Check out my stream at www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315053 and follow me on Twitter @EGSuppy! :)
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
August 07 2007 13:03 GMT
#5
Oh wow. Thank you
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1872 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 13:11:58
August 07 2007 13:09 GMT
#6
Starcraft is pretty much just Warcraft 2++: In Space. That's not a bad thing though because Warcraft 2 had great basic gameplay, it just didn't have the variety of races and units that SC does.

edit: and yes Starcraft's reviews were mostly bullshit (even the really positive ones) because 99.9% of games journalists are gigantic newbs at RTS.
H
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
New Zealand6138 Posts
August 07 2007 13:13 GMT
#7
Impressive.
[iHs]HCO | のヮの | pachi & plexa ownz | RIP _
5HITCOMBO
Profile Joined March 2006
Japan2239 Posts
August 07 2007 13:14 GMT
#8
On August 07 2007 22:09 gravity wrote:
Starcraft is pretty much just Warcraft 2++: In Space. That's not a bad thing though because Warcraft 2 had great basic gameplay, it just didn't have the variety of races and units that SC does.

edit: and yes Starcraft's reviews were mostly bullshit (even the really positive ones) because 99.9% of games journalists are gigantic newbs at RTS.

"THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT IN SPACE..."
I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters
gravity
Profile Joined March 2004
Australia1872 Posts
August 07 2007 13:16 GMT
#9
On August 07 2007 22:14 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2007 22:09 gravity wrote:
Starcraft is pretty much just Warcraft 2++: In Space. That's not a bad thing though because Warcraft 2 had great basic gameplay, it just didn't have the variety of races and units that SC does.

edit: and yes Starcraft's reviews were mostly bullshit (even the really positive ones) because 99.9% of games journalists are gigantic newbs at RTS.

"THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT IN SPACE..."

It isn't "Warcraft in Space" in the way people originally meant that complaint, but the base gameplay (not the specific strategies, obviously) is strongly based on WC2, but with a lot more variety.
CustomXSpunjah
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1093 Posts
August 07 2007 13:22 GMT
#10
"Weighed on its own merits, Starcraft is an extremely well-crafted game, albeit one with a few notable problems. It doesn't stray far from the blueprint created by its predecessors (namely the Warcrafts and Command & Conquers), but it is, without a doubt, the best game to ever adhere to that formula."

let me repeat:
"but it is, without a doubt, the best game to ever adhere to that formula."
Not only did it adhere to the RTS formula set forth by CnC and Wc, it PERFECTED it. Perfect balanced mixed with multiple options of strategy made this game what it is now. Not the "stunning" graphics or the voices of the units, but instead the balanced play and perfect controls.
beware, the rise of the Protoss is upon us!
useLess
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4781 Posts
August 07 2007 14:32 GMT
#11
Summary: BW is fun and balanced.
Moonlight Shadow
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
August 07 2007 14:45 GMT
#12
1 word: awrsdrsome
Moderator<:3-/-<
[jOyO]
Profile Joined July 2006
United States920 Posts
August 07 2007 14:53 GMT
#13
no other game has lasted 11 years i am pretty sure. (and still is popular after the 11 years)
You must notta heard me PARTNA!
Pressure
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
7326 Posts
August 07 2007 14:58 GMT
#14
good thing you brought back a good post
mel_ee
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
2448 Posts
August 07 2007 15:06 GMT
#15
On August 07 2007 23:45 IntoTheWow wrote:
1 word: awrsdrsome
Behold the bold soldier, control the globe slowly proceeds to blow swingin swords like Shinobi
ArC_man
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States2798 Posts
August 07 2007 15:21 GMT
#16
On August 07 2007 23:53 [jOyO] wrote:
no other game has lasted 11 years i am pretty sure. (and still is popular after the 11 years)

Street fighter 2
Sadir
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
Vatican City State1176 Posts
August 07 2007 15:39 GMT
#17
On August 07 2007 21:57 Jathin wrote:
Professional gaming wouldn't exist without SC.

6 word answer (7 if you count the apostrophe as a word)


I have no clue about conterstrike, but doesn't a pro scene exist there too
and where is more money? in BW or CS?
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13036 Posts
August 07 2007 16:18 GMT
#18
Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be more in BW.

CS is very popular worldwide, but I don't think it has the same amount of money in it.

Of course I'm basing this is fanboyism purely, so I'll prob get shot down (hoho I used a pun!) by CS spies.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
HonestTea *
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
5007 Posts
August 07 2007 16:49 GMT
#19
Fusion, that was a great read. Thanks
returns upon momentous occasions.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
August 07 2007 16:51 GMT
#20
AWRSDRSOME
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Dantak
Profile Joined January 2006
Czech Republic648 Posts
August 07 2007 17:41 GMT
#21
Woah, that's so awesome. I've really enjoyed whole read. Thank you very much
"Life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery." - f33red k0r34n z3rg
gEzUS
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada371 Posts
August 07 2007 18:43 GMT
#22
gj great read thanks
merz
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Sweden2760 Posts
August 07 2007 21:53 GMT
#23
CS and wc3 dominates the pro-scene outside korea. Although I'm not sure if the prize money in korea > outside korea.
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
Jathin
Profile Blog Joined February 2005
United States3505 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-08-07 21:59:29
August 07 2007 21:57 GMT
#24
--- Nuked ---
PePe QuiCoSE
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Argentina1204 Posts
August 07 2007 22:18 GMT
#25
awesome shit here :D
Koldblooded
Profile Joined July 2006
United States661 Posts
August 07 2007 22:26 GMT
#26
On August 07 2007 23:45 IntoTheWow wrote:
1 word: awrsdrsome
By.Flash fighting
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
August 08 2007 05:04 GMT
#27
thanks guys ♥
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
Sudyn
Profile Joined May 2007
United States744 Posts
August 08 2007 05:10 GMT
#28
I saw this post in the other thread and I also believed that it deserved it's own thread. After rereading the post, I think that this is one of the best threads that have been written in a long time.

Featured Thread, plz?
Gaetele banned?
Mutaahh
Profile Joined June 2007
Netherlands859 Posts
August 08 2007 05:30 GMT
#29
very nice to read

i 100% agree BW is the best
I want to fly
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