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Albania1482 Posts
The problem with the bottom-left top-right type of natural layout is that:
- it makes it impossible to park an overlord behind the resource nodes to check on gas timing and saturation, this is pretty important scouting in ZvP and ZvZ and to a lesser extend ZvT.
- It makes nexus walloffs pretty much impossible, which makes gateway expands tricky as well as defensive simcity in ZvZ because you really won't have creep to apply a frontal full wall in ZvZ to hold most all ins.
Edit: This map is by the way one of the most extreme cases of 'square syndrome', the awkward proportions of terrain that might ensue from trying to force a map into a square canvas as tightly as possible:
![[image loading]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Yf_Z0DGs4mQ/UdfxX-XiHaI/AAAAAAAABpk/ntdjYv7dcvw/s730/square%2520syndrome.jpg)
Especially the chokes with the geyser are problematic, they essentially give the attacking player a concave attacking the mineral line while you do not have a concave from the other place with the geysers and your own main building in the way. Could of course easily be remedied by pushing the resource nodes back a bit, but that'd push it outside of the canvas, requiring the canvas to be enlarged and that would create the awful sin of airspace. Tactical terrain which some units can utilize and others can't, which is for completely understandable reasons of course a bad idea.
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On July 06 2013 17:58 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Edit: This map is by the way one of the most extreme cases of 'square syndrome', the awkward proportions of terrain that might ensue from trying to force a map into a square canvas as tightly as possible:
Okay, I don't know where this idea of 'square syndrome' came from, but let me join Superouman in telling you you're actually just full of it. The resulting problem areas you highlight are all intentional, both in a gameplay sense and a stylistic sense, it has nothing to do with trying to fit tightly into a square. The 1/7 mains you highlight were actually the first part of the map I designed, kinda hard for them to be squished against the edge when there's nothing there yet. If you want evidence, look at the 5/11 mains. Those seem to have an oddly large amount of airspace near them, for a map trying so desperately to be a square.
You remind me of chuky when you talk about this. You seem to think you're onto a breakthrough that somehow everyone else in the world has missed, when you're actually just wrong, and mappers clearly better than you have repeatedly told you this. I suppose your next trick is exposing how bad Planet S is for being rectangular.
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Albania1482 Posts
On July 06 2013 19:55 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 17:58 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Edit: This map is by the way one of the most extreme cases of 'square syndrome', the awkward proportions of terrain that might ensue from trying to force a map into a square canvas as tightly as possible: Okay, I don't know where this idea of 'square syndrome' came from, but let me join Superouman in telling you you're actually just full of it. The resulting problem areas you highlight are all intentional, both in a gameplay sense and a stylistic sense, Ah yes, it is intentional that the opponent can get a massive concave on your mineral line and it just by cosmogical coincidence fits perfectly into a square.
Well then, then I take it back. Then it's just a bizarre game decision that doesn't want to make me play on that map. I was never a big fan of my opponent being able to get a giant concave on my base as the attacker while it's awkward for me to defend. You know, the same reason why I don't like a cannon being able to be locked in behind natural mineral lines on one pylon or tanks being droppable on a highround overlooking my natural. Just my own subjective thing of course.
it has nothing to do with trying to fit tightly into a square. If you want evidence, look at the 5/11 mains. Those seem to have an oddly large amount of airspace near them, for a map trying so desperately to be a square. True.
You remind me of chuky when you talk about this. You seem to think you're onto a breakthrough that somehow everyone else in the world has missed, when you're actually just wrong, and mappers clearly better than you have repeatedly told you this. I suppose your next trick is exposing how bad Planet S is for being rectangular.
Planet S for the most part has avoided these awkward proportions. look again at the circle outlined at the middle left part of the map. You really think it's a good idea the opponent can get a nice concave there firing at your mineral line and geysers and potentially your main while you as the defender are forced through an awkward choke to engage it?
I mean, if you think that's okay, that's your opinion, but thne you migh as well make droppable ledges overlooking naturals.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I really like this map Sunshine, excellent work!
I honestly don't think it's a huge deal that zerg don't have a super easy scout in all positions, if anything it just promotes the use of speed overlords or even changelings more and that's a good thing.
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On July 06 2013 20:05 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Planet S for the most part has avoided these awkward proportions. look again at the circle outlined at the middle left part of the map. You really think it's a good idea the opponent can get a nice concave there firing at your mineral line and geysers and potentially your main while you as the defender are forced through an awkward choke to engage it?
I mean, if you think that's okay, that's your opinion, but thne you migh as well make droppable ledges overlooking naturals.
It's an inbase expansion, yes I think there should be certain vulnerabilities to it, that normal bases don't have. Lost Temple-style ledges, man, I'm not sure what you're actually thinking.
Remember, an important part of game design is actually to make the player less comfortable. Probably a concept lost on you. The trick is to walk the line between this and imbalance, however your opinion on Metalopolis suggests to me that you don't believe in imbalance.
I could point to a few different spots on Planet S and highlight them with red ovals, just as you have, where the map seems to be forcing itself into a square. However, I know better, and I know Jacky knows better. What you see is an intentional gameplay decision coupled with an aesthetic style that plays off of the square canvas. If the canvas is going to remain rectangular, then yes, I'm going to make maps that play off of that, you'd be absolutely mad to think otherwise.
On July 06 2013 20:09 Qikz wrote:
I really like this map Sunshine, excellent work!
I honestly don't think it's a huge deal that zerg don't have a super easy scout in all positions, if anything it just promotes the use of speed overlords or even changelings more and that's a good thing.
And thank you. 
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It's a game of positioning more often than not, if you let them get into that position to fire onto your mineral and geysers then it's your own fault, especially when you have highground AND rocks as defensive tools for that position.
On July 06 2013 20:09 Qikz wrote:
I honestly don't think it's a huge deal that zerg don't have a super easy scout in all positions, if anything it just promotes the use of speed overlords or even changelings more and that's a good thing.
I agree, besides with lair tech being a lot more desirable for Zerg these days they often have a Lair up and Overseers for that kind of thing, we need to stop babysitting zerg scouting.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I said this in my other post before I edited you quoted, so I'll say it again.
The third isn't easy and the fourth in any position isn't just a instant get for any player which is always one of my biggest pet peeves with maps made by non Kespa map makers as it really does force more army movement which is a good thing. There's also enough chokes to make it a good map for mech which is badly needed in the map pool to not only promote the playstyle, but to make it so bio isn't as powerful on those maps.
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Albania1482 Posts
On July 06 2013 20:09 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2013 20:05 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Planet S for the most part has avoided these awkward proportions. look again at the circle outlined at the middle left part of the map. You really think it's a good idea the opponent can get a nice concave there firing at your mineral line and geysers and potentially your main while you as the defender are forced through an awkward choke to engage it?
I mean, if you think that's okay, that's your opinion, but thne you migh as well make droppable ledges overlooking naturals.
It's an inbase expansion, yes I think there should be certain vulnerabilities to it, that normal bases don't have. Lost Temple-style ledges, man, I'm not sure what you're actually thinking. Yes, and see the path protoss is going to take to do a sentry/immortal or some other forcefield all in in PvZ. There is very little room to ever get a good engagement as Z. Even if you sit atop that ramp yourself the geyser is in the way.
Remember, an important part of game design is actually to make the player less comfortable. Probably a concept lost on you. The trick is to walk the line between this and imbalance, however your opinion on Metalopolis suggests to me that you don't believe in imbalance. Because Metalopolis was such an imbalanced map.
Apart from that, on the rush distance issue. Being able to scout gasses in ZvP is so much more important then rush distance. Protoss circumvents rush distance completely with gateway all ins anyway and those are exactly the all ins you want to check gasses for to see coming. You'll most likely not even be able to get ovie speed in time to see an MC style 7gate all in coming. the only clue is the probe count and the lack of gasses that you have got to pump roaches.
Being able to get speed ovies out in ZvZ to scout for ling/bane all ins is just not possible. Not to mention that that natural design gives you a vast amount of area to cover with spines. There's a reason that every ZvZ on entombed were baneling all ins vs baneling all ins. They are just almost impossible to scout and very hard to defend even when you scout it.
I could point to a few different spots on Planet S and highlight them with red ovals, just as you have, where the map seems to be forcing itself into a square. However, I know better, and I know Jacky knows better. What you see is an intentional gameplay decision coupled with an aesthetic style that plays off of the square canvas. If the canvas is going to remain rectangular, then yes, I'm going to make maps that play off of that, you'd be absolutely mad to think otherwise. Planet S is also forced into a square, in the case of planet S however it doesn't lead to the chokes in the wrong places.
Apart from that, the LE of Neo Planet S also has the gas problem. Which is probably why originally in proleague the gasses were moved to the other side. Gateway all ins on the LE are also pretty popular because it's very hard to check gasses.
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I suggest people read posts without having predetermined opinions based on who wrote the posts. Sisko raises up some valid points based on his experience as a player, and in order to say he is wrong you will need to know better how to play in his level or above, or ask someone else at that level for their opinion.
A thing that should be addressed is that the Main and nat mineral lines scoutable by overlords. About the attacker advantage in some locations I don't mind that much, it is a design that favors a player with better scouting and positioning, since someone who is ready for the attack can always be ready in front of the mineral line instead of behind it.
Personally I don't mind the map fitting into a square, but since you say this design is completely intentional, what is your reasoning behind the main bases? I think it is quite annoying for Terran since their production gets a bit weird and I see no things that make it better compared to normal roundish bases. (I am talking mostly about the bottom left and top right bases, while the other set of bases is only slightly weird)
Overall the map is really interesting and I the 2 in 1 style is done good here.
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Albania1482 Posts
On July 06 2013 20:41 moskonia wrote:
I suggest people read posts without having predetermined opinions based on who wrote the posts. Sisko raises up some valid points based on his experience as a player, and in order to say he is wrong you will need to know better how to play in his level or above, or ask someone else at that level for their opinion. Don't really agree with this idea honestly as much as it serves my agenda in this case. Some people who are better are also biased or only get to that level because of their mechanics. Like, IdrA >>> I as far as playing goes but I take pretty much everything he says on balance with a huge grain of salt. I'd like to believe however that the fact that I play random mitigates any racial bias I'd otherwise have.
A thing that should be addressed is that the Main and nat mineral lines scoutable by overlords. About the attacker advantage in some locations I don't mind that much, it is a design that favors a player with better scouting and positioning, since someone who is ready for the attack can always be ready in front of the mineral line instead of behind it. I don't think it is an issue of 'better scouting', it forces you to gamble. To scout some of the really early gateway all ins in ZvP. You have to go by gas timing and mineral saturation or be lucky and scout the gates in some way. You can theoretically fly an overlord in at the exact right spot and see them but this is a gamble and protoss players will typically be able to deny this. To talk about this like lair tech or ovie speed or changelings to scout this stuff is just indicative of not playing Zerg honestly. There is no way to ever scout a 1gas MC-style 8gate with lair tech or ovie speed. It just doesn't finish in time. The biggest clue is 'Okay, you're on 1 gas for this long and you; re not chronoing your nexus'.
The biggest issue in resource scouting is ZvZ though. It's absolutely needed in my opinion to stablize the matchup. If the other Z has speed before you you cannot ever get lings to check the drone saturation, he can either follow up with drones or some all in. You need to know if he's droning. I mean, look at the type of games we saw on entombed in ZvZ, it was just baneling all ins after baneling all ins after baneling all ins. This type of natuiral makes them both hard to hold and hard to scout.
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I am not talking about the mineral locations, I agree with you on that, what I disagree about is the circles you made on the expansions, since if you have good preparation you can be fine versus attacks that would otherwise favor the opponent. Having Lings and Overlords / Pylons and Observers spread across possible attack paths is very important on this map, as well as Sensor Towers for Terran.
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Albania1482 Posts
With good preparation you can be fine against it yeah, as you can against most things. I just think it puts an undue burden on Zerg in this case and is especially powerful for Protoss even in PvT. In TvZ Terran doesn't really care about not anticipating it that much since ZvT is pretty melee based and melee units don't actually care for a concave all that much. I suppose it mattered if you faced roach/hydra though.
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On July 06 2013 17:58 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Edit: This map is by the way one of the most extreme cases of 'square syndrome', the awkward proportions of terrain that might ensue from trying to force a map into a square canvas as tightly as possible
Pretty much this. Remember kids: Wasted space is a lie.
Especially since, if you truly wanted to avoid wasted space, you would have to make the map a circle and not a square.
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I like this. Now with Korhal Sky Island on ladder, I'm digging the emergence of these 2 in 1 maps. Though, I will say that a map pool should only have 1 of these. Having a bunch will make it hard on the players.
As for 'square syndrome'... I call bullshit. Having wasted, empty space empowers air play. If New Sunstone does not want that as part if his concept, or if he only wants dead space in certain locations to help pertain towardhis concept, then there is no wrong doing. Granted, the proportions at the top left and bottom right corners are not so wonderful, but I can easily think of a few ways to rearrange it and make it better.
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Mains are really small and awkward.
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Albania1482 Posts
Obviously the limits of the editor and euclidean geometry itself are always going to force you to make some concessions. I'm just saying as a subjective form of criticism that I don't think that the lack of airspace is worth some of chokes which I don't think are conducive to good gameplay. At some parts of the map forcefields are going to be overly brutal because of some of the chokes geysers create. As well as the inability for an o verlord to peak in and at the very least always see the main and nat geysers. Without being able to do that scouting for Zerg becomes a gamble. If a stalker or two marines can easily deny that you're just gambling as Zerg and in the dark. Ovie speed or lair tech simply doesn't come fast enough for certain attacks which are exactly the attacks you want to know are coming by checking gas timings.
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On July 07 2013 00:50 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Obviously the limits of the editor and euclidean geometry itself are always going to force you to make some concessions. I'm just saying as a subjective form of criticism that I don't think that the lack of airspace is worth some of chokes which I don't think are conducive to good gameplay. At some parts of the map forcefields are going to be overly brutal because of some of the chokes geysers create. As well as the inability for an o verlord to peak in and at the very least always see the main and nat geysers. Without being able to do that scouting for Zerg becomes a gamble. If a stalker or two marines can easily deny that you're just gambling as Zerg and in the dark. Ovie speed or lair tech simply doesn't come fast enough for certain attacks which are exactly the attacks you want to know are coming by checking gas timings.
The choke you're talking about may be an issue, or may just be a good map feature. After all, isn't it ok for ff to be powerful in defending your natural? If it does show to be problematic, then it is a very easy problem to fix.
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Albania1482 Posts
On July 07 2013 01:13 Timetwister22 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2013 00:50 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Obviously the limits of the editor and euclidean geometry itself are always going to force you to make some concessions. I'm just saying as a subjective form of criticism that I don't think that the lack of airspace is worth some of chokes which I don't think are conducive to good gameplay. At some parts of the map forcefields are going to be overly brutal because of some of the chokes geysers create. As well as the inability for an o verlord to peak in and at the very least always see the main and nat geysers. Without being able to do that scouting for Zerg becomes a gamble. If a stalker or two marines can easily deny that you're just gambling as Zerg and in the dark. Ovie speed or lair tech simply doesn't come fast enough for certain attacks which are exactly the attacks you want to know are coming by checking gas timings. The choke you're talking about may be an issue, or may just be a good map feature. After all, isn't it ok for ff to be powerful in defending your natural? If it does show to be problematic, then it is a very easy problem to fix. Well, this choke allows for the establishment of a concave on the outside of the natural but not on the inside. So it makes FF really powerful to attack a natural, not as much to defend it.
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New Sunstone, lol. This is pretty cool design for a 2 in 1, with a meaningful difference between the two spawns. Love the semi-island idea. 2 in 1 is a huge gimmick nonetheless. It doesn't actually do anything other than for proleague or loser picks formats, and could just be a 2p map. One of them in a map pool is more than enough. Without thinking too hard about it, I like this, but I'm also getting tired of seeing these because they're kind of pointless / not hard to make.
I don't like the BL/TR mains. If you're going to use the "wings" main format, you have to provide more space for production. I would also add trees or some kind of vision block at the outside edge for overlords/drops to be able to sneak in a little into the center of the main (and would help with scouting). It doesn't have to be much, just a little. I would also scoot the natural mineral line away from the cliff and/or make more space by adjusting the main cliff. That spot will make really stupid cannon rushes and is ridiculous for bio drops where you can't get any surface area.
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