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Right now there are some 4 player maps with forced cross and some maps with random spawns in the map pool. The Quesion is: Why? So lets see, what the pros and cons of random spawns on 4 player maps are:.
Pros:
1. a single map enhances different strats dependant on the relative position towards your opponent
2. if 1 opponent cheeses it gives tension to the game and the fans on whether he is going to find the opponent or not.
Cons:
1. early game is purely luckbased depending on finding your opponent first or not. there are many examples where a cheese is literally an instant win if you find your opponent first or is very far behind if it doesnt. so both the cheesing and the defending player are purely depending on luck to win games. (proxy reaper in TvZ, 10 pool in ZvZ, 6 pools in ZvP etc.).
2. building on point 1: it takes away the skill of scouting and proper reacting to what you scout.
I will add more pros and cons to the OP if you got any more that need to be in there.
Conclusion:
IMO there should be forced cross spawns on 4 player maps so the defenders advantage stays in the game, scouting is possible and random luckbased wins and losses are out of the game which means skill decides games, not luck.
So yeah start a discussion on whether forced cross spawns should be standard in the map pool or not and why you think that should be the case.
Poll: Should 4 player maps be cross only?No (54) 65% Yes (16) 19% Make it a mixture like it is now (13) 16% 83 total votes Your vote: Should 4 player maps be cross only? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): Make it a mixture like it is now
(Vote): No
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Canada16217 Posts
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The randomness is what makes it a 4 player map. A 4 player map with forced spawns is essentially the same thing as a 2 player map.
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Your poll should be "should we get rid of non-2p maps"?
That's what it seems like you want (although no one is making many 3p maps nowadays, but they do and have existed and been used in competition).
4p maps are part of the game, and a mixture is good. If you make "4p" maps cross only, they are just 2p maps, so why even bother designing as a 4p map? And no chance for 3p maps ever.
There's also still random luck based scouting with things like proxies or in base sneaky pylons even on 2 player maps, plus the general RPS of a cheesy opening vs not scouting. Scouting is luck based too.
If you want to remove all chance, then just get rid of the fog of war.
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On June 16 2013 19:11 Lonyo wrote:
Your poll should be "should we get rid of non-2p maps"?
That's what it seems like you want (although no one is making many 3p maps nowadays, but they do and have existed and been used in competition).
4p maps are part of the game, and a mixture is good. If you make "4p" maps cross only, they are just 2p maps, so why even bother designing as a 4p map? And no chance for 3p maps ever.
There's also still random luck based scouting with things like proxies or in base sneaky pylons even on 2 player maps, plus the general RPS of a cheesy opening vs not scouting. Scouting is luck based too.
If you want to remove all chance, then just get rid of the fog of war.
there could also be more 4 player maps like korhal sky island that have asymmetric spawns so its a completely different map depending on where you spawn and its already cross only. so that kind of asymmetric 4 player map could be the future.
oh and scouting is already very skillbased in mid and lategame so better players will scout better, so its exactly the opposite of your "getting rid of the fog of war" because the more skill you have the better your scouting will be.
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maybe seeing the spawning locations would be a solution so you know that where he is while having all spawns possible.
No luck with the scouting and still different strategies through the spawning locations
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On June 16 2013 19:04 Decendos wrote:
Cons:
1. early game is purely luckbased depending on finding your opponent first or not. there are many examples where a cheese is literally an instant win if you find your opponent first or is very far behind if it doesnt. so both the cheesing and the defending player are purely depending on luck to win games. (proxy reaper in TvZ, 10 pool in ZvZ, 6 pools in ZvP etc.).
2. building on point 1: it takes away the skill of scouting and proper reacting to what you scout.
You're funny.
If a cheese is an instant win, it's simply a bad map.
Random spawning takes away the skill of scouting? Wouldn't that rather be the opposite - it's not so hard to get aware of what your opponent is doing when you know exactly where he is.
If your map needs forced spawning positions - it should've been a 2 player map.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
If you're going to force cross spawns, why bother making anything but 2 player maps? It's so stupid, forced cross really shouldn't exist.
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Don't say the word "purely" followed by "luck based" in starcraft 2. You will always be wrong.
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In your quest to remove luck you reduce skill. Four player maps require a different approach than two player maps and the players skill determines how much they are affected by any factor such as luck.
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there should be no forced spawns at all imo..
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i have no issue with all 4 player maps being cross spawn. but i also dont mind if theyre not so long as theyre balanced...
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Also you should only ever force spawns when the map design is bad like blizzard maps that have imbalances in close positions. Or when its a feature such as on Korhal that requires it (which Korhal is basically a two player map anyway).
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Forced spawns makes for less variety in strategies and gameplay based on position. I really don't think it's good, especially not when it comes to spectating.
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I am against forced spawn locations. If someone wants to cheese really badly he has the possibility to vote 3 4-p maps already. I cant imagine playing TvP when my starting position is always known.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On June 16 2013 19:21 Decendos wrote:
there could also be more 4 player maps like korhal sky island that have asymmetric spawns so its a completely different map depending on where you spawn and its already cross only. so that kind of asymmetric 4 player map could be the future.
oh and scouting is already very skillbased in mid and lategame so better players will scout better, so its exactly the opposite of your "getting rid of the fog of war" because the more skill you have the better your scouting will be.
I love maps like that where spawn position radically alters the way the game plays out, but it seems any time we get one of those maps people whine about how they only lost due to spawns forever and it falls out of favor.
This always feels to me like a situation where people are fishing super hard to find reasons as to why they lost that don't involve their own play.
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A mixture is good imo 
I really like those maps, but you don't want maps to become too alike.
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if ur talking top masters gm im sure they analyse the maps . . im gonna go out and say dia and below i dont think the map matters in the slightest, most of it is going to come down to a control/macro issue in the end anyway
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
You have no idea what you're talking about.
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EPT
