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I apologize if someone already has a thread about this, I tried to search, but found nothing.
I am a protoss player and I think the biggest leak in my game is the lack of understanding of when you should expand in the late game.
In PvT, It seems to me that I expand pretty much whenever I can late game or whenever they do, and that seems to work. Not a really problem.
In PvZ, after getting my first expansion, I have a huge problem because it's hard to decided when to expand, or try to attack their expansions and engage in their army. I have pretty much no idea when I should try to take my 2nd/3rd expo.
In PvP I seem to have a much easier time with this, but I have trouble dealing with expos in a different sense:
Example: PvP - Rush Hour 3. I'm bottom left, he's top left. Now we both have expanded once, and he takes the top left expansion (not the high ground one, infront of that) as his expansion. The only response to this I can think of for myself is to expand, becuase if I attack, he can either a.) defend using the huge opening in the middle map as a path to his base, or a route to attack me. This means I can't just send a small army to kill his expansion.
Heres a PvZ rep for anyone.
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=B221FE5E37F5DB17
[edit] I also don't think I conveyed the problem with losing the aggressive side when I get that 3rd expo pvz, allowing zerg many expansions, which I dont want to do.
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If you feel taht you have a advantage there are to options; power and end it quick, go safe and expand and win later on...or get counterd...ohh..
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my only advice for PvZ is expand after every battle that you win convincingly. Conversely, if he goes sunk/spore/lurk into ultra tech you want your 3rd gas up ASAP for archons. Do it when you can beat his standing army, even if he doesn't fight, cos you won't be able to exp when he has 12 ultras running around. Make sure your building placement is good so he can't just gay your nexus.
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On July 11 2006 01:34 Resonate wrote:
my only advice for PvZ is expand after every battle that you win convincingly. Conversely, if he goes sunk/spore/lurk into ultra tech you want your 3rd gas up ASAP for archons. Do it when you can beat his standing army, even if he doesn't fight, cos you won't be able to exp when he has 12 ultras running around. Make sure your building placement is good so he can't just gay your nexus.
w0rd! I need those advices badly ^^
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expand during your battles or as soon as you're occupying zergs units so he cant attack, cannons need time to warp
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On July 11 2006 01:56 zulu_nation8 wrote:
expand during your battles or as soon as you're occupying zergs units so he cant attack, cannons need time to warp
Basically.... Yeah.
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this seems to be the big hole in my game too. late game i can never hold down an expantion because he rapes it all with 2 ultra 5 lings while im trying to morph it -,.-
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There have been several threads about expanding in the past. I found the responses rather unsatisfying. I wager that this is largely because expanding is very relative. Consider a game on luna in which the terran goes 1factcc tornado attack around 9-10min. The P player can go for a 2gaterangerorobo build and expo at around 6min then expo later after the attack in order to be safe. Or the p player could go 1gaterange to rather early expo some more gates then another expo and then robo and that way the p should be able to hold off the attack fine as long as they halt probes for the moment in order to prepare in time. You see the rather large difference in expo times, 6min vs. 4:30 or so, and 10+min to 7 or so, yet both are sufficient to get the job done.
About pvp on rush hour, I think you have the right idea. From what I've seen this map tends towad longer games. If you cant attack or harass sucesfully, and your not leaving openings for your opponent, expand.
I'll add to this the some ideas I generally follow about expanding, which you may or may not find useful.
First, note the fact that if a P player makes probes consistently and stops at around 3xper patch you’ll run out of mins around 13min mark at main. That’s generally my 2nd expo timing -- when my main is about to give out so I can just transfer those probes to a new expansion. The first expo timing varies; say anything from fast expo to 9min or so. It largely depends on what you’re going for. This way of playing is my standard as its rather safe because you have the least number of expansions necessary for good play, and this also means you’ll have more power at least for the time being because its means your not going to drop money on another nexus, more probes, and static defense. It’s very consistent, and rather good if not always the best economically. Sure, this may fall apart from time to time depending on what’s going on, but its rather good overall. Grab your next expansion at least by the time your nat is going low. As far as late game expands I don't have any real advice, just do what works.
That is my standard of expanding that I compare alternatives to. I don't ever want to be caught expanding later then that if I can help it, but when would it be beneficial to expand earlier then this? For instance, consider the thread started by skyglow2 a bit back. I recommend one of two styles of play considering that he was able to have his 1st expansion up about 2 mins earlier then the terran while remaining safe. I recommend that he either expand again rather early and build on that economic advantage that he already had, or to just take the advantage that he already had and turn that into power more quickly.
edit-ya wrong one. Took a quick look, I would have definatly tried to expand earlier then you did. Perhaps ill take a more detailed look later.
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On July 11 2006 10:55 Knickknack wrote:
Lastly, I'm a bit confusing as to why you posted that replay as its the same one skyglow posted in the other thread. I would have played the game a bit differently which would have lead to an earlier first expand and slightly later 2nd expand, but whether that would have best way to go is certainly up for question.
Uhm, I just played that game yesterday on pgt, so I think you watched the wrong one.
But yeah, I agree that expanding is very open ended, what I meant by this thread was like, things to look for, or if things happen it generally means its a good time to expo, ect. Thanks for your advice though
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Hmm basically, the scenaries when you can and should expand are:
1) You have an army-wise advantage with or without an economic advantage.(ie. pvz, the toss just broke out of contain, he will almost always have the upper hand when related to army, so he pressures the zerg and expands)
2) You are about equal army-wise with or without an economic advantage. (ie. Any match up where battles arent balancing the game to ones favor, your money starts piling up so you expo)
3) You have a tech advantage even though economically or army-wise you may not have the advantage. (Your tech will either, buy you time to expand, or allow you to expand somewhere where your opponent cant yet reach (ie. drops for zerg on a map with islands, pvz when toss opens with dt/corsair).
4) You have no army advantage and may not have an advantage in tech and/or economy, but you have the means to delay your opponent enough and set up a defense (ie. zvp where the zerg contains while expoing and sunkening, tvp on rpoint where the terran turtles to grab his second expansion, pvz when the toss opens with fast cannon)
5) You are certain your opponent wont see your expo because you are distracting him or he doesnt scout or you trick him into thinking something, whatever, but usually otherwise you wouldnt be able to hold that exp, so you are relying on your secrecy and/or mischieve to get that expansion up with static defense or some way to hold your opponent at bay. (ie. fake openings that indicate some sort of rush or whatever and instead they are fast expo, secret expos)
6) You just won a battle and you have about the same army-producing capabilities he has. (ie. pvt, the toss breaks the terrans push so hes able to expand). This is kind of the same as 1).
Those are all that come to mind right now.
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Man I'm answering so many 1gate sair tech threads lately that I\'m tempted to just write a guide and point to it. I actually wantched the rep, fancy that, hah. Anyway, the way you play that game is so diffrent from how I would have played it.
You go: sair tech+zeals -> early forge, 2nd gate, +1, +legs, +cannons at ramp, + storm, blah
I'd go: sair tech+zeals/dt to forge-> (see what z is up to, 3hatch lurk) expo -> cannon at expo+arch/storm.
You'ld get a way earlier expo and be safe from lurkers. See how much unnecessary stuff your adding in there before expo? Do you have a good reason for all that stuff?
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EPT
