SC2 mapmaking: an overview and thoughts

Ragoo

Germany2773 Posts

May 09 2013 17:23 GMT

Hello fellow SC2 fans,

this will be my attempt, as a mapmaker myself, to give everyone an overview over the Starcraft melee mapmaking scene, it's history, structure, problems and challenges. I want to encourage everyone to add to this overview and especially discuss what you think are the most important aspects of this scene, its biggest obstacles and how to overcome them in the future.
This post will probably be all over the place, ranging from objective fact stating regarding the history to my very subjective opinion/rants on the scene and its problems. Thus I further encourage you to question and criticize what I am saying.
I'm sorry that it's fucking long but anyone who is really interested in this but doesn't have much experience can probably value this highly

Excuse any mistakes and typos or if something just is a rant going nowhere.

1. A quick history of mapmaking...

Starcraft:Brood War

The history of mapmaking as far as I am concerned starts with professional leagues in Korea. In the 15 years of Starcraft history Liquipedia listed over 500 maps and variations, roughly half of which were maps played in professional Starcraft.
When Korean leagues became more professional so did mapmaking and it was seen as integral part of the tournament. Mapmakers were hired by the organizations to produce the highest quality maps together with them and through testing of Korean progamers.
I believe it's fair to say that high quality and (especially later) diverse maps were what helped keeping professional Starcraft alive for such a long time.

Meanwhile the foreign mapmaking scene in Broodwar was nothing more but a sidenote. T
he professional scene in Korea was largely isolated and no way for foreign mapmakers to get meaningful connections in the scene. Thus it remained nothing more but a fun hobby apart from some of the maps that made iCCup ladder.

Starcraft 2 – 2010-2011

When Starcraft 2 hit the scene nobody was initially concerned with mapmaking so maps by Blizzard were the norm. Also the lack of a custom ladder like iCCup meant that for now Blizzard had total control over the ladder and thus dictated the map pool.
Meanwhile since the Korean scene didn't initially make the switch, no Korean mapmakers did either. With a new foreign scene developing, connections between foreign mapmakers and tournaments had to grow first.

During this time the first mapmaking powerhouse iCCup (now ESV) formed and held multiple smaller showmatches to showcase their creations (which largely consisted of BW remakes).

It should take them until February 2011 however to convince the first major tournament to use their maps, when MLG started to use the 3 player map Testbug by Superouman. Being the first community map and a quite weird/interesting map at that it captured everyone's heart very fast and was soon used in every tournament for over half a year.

Only some months later GOM introduced their own custom maps. The three big 4p rotational maps Tal'Darim Altar, Terminus RE and Crevasse first used in March 2011 were soon a long time stable for the whole scene. Especially Tal'Darim Altar had an incredibly long history after its addition to the ladder (MLG used it still in late 2012!).

2011 was also the birth year of Daybreak, seeing the first use in GSL August, still being used up to this date.

While GSL continued to have a relatively healthy map rotation and Blizzard also made some new maps, during this time the foreign mapmaking scene seemed almost lost. The only hope was the ESV Korean Weekly, a small tournament with relatively small following that featured the best B-teamers of their time (hello Taeja). The Korean Weekly would consistently feature new map creations from the ESV mapmaking team, yet none of these maps could make it to the big stage.

TLMC

During this time of despair the Teamliquid Map Contest 1 arrived in September 2011. Blizzard had approached Teamliquid to give mapmakers the opportunity to make maps for their ladder and the opportunity was taken.
Out of far over one hundred submissions three maps were chosen to be put on ladder: Korhal Compound (altho rather quickly dismissed), Ohana (which was us everywhere for a long time) and arguably the best map of Wings of Liberty, Cloud Kingdom.

New hope grew in the foreign mapmaking scene, finally their work was appreciated and used. But was that really a good sign for the future?

2012 and present

The history of mapmaking in 2012 is quickly told. GSL continuously introduced new maps to their league which were used by tournaments around the world, and so did Blizzard (even if not all their maps were as well received).

And the foreign scene? A small cooperation of the Map of the Month contest (a contest formerly held by mapmakers, for mapmakers and of little actual value except recognition within the mapmaking scene) with ESL happened in early 2012. It promised a spot in IEM for the winning map (never happened) as well as some smaller prizes. Other than that nothing really happened as the scene struggled and more and more mapmakers chose to become inactive. Most notably the maker of Testbug and Cloud Kingdom, Superouman.

Something notable did however happen at the end of 2012: Kespa entered the scene and with them their professional and innovative attitude towards maps. Largely ignoring Blizzards standards for maps they introduced four maps which ranged from just very gimmicky (Caldeum) to outright crazy (the semi-island BW map Arkanoid).

In 2013 HotS arrived which changed basically nothing for the mapmaking scene; Blizzard, GSL and Kespa are still making maps just as before.

What did however shake up the mapmaking scene lately was the introduction of the Teamliquid Map Contest #2 which should once again give the foreign mapmaking scene a big platform to present their maps to a wide audience and maybe make it into the big tournaments as well.

2. Mapmaking organizations and contests

ESV (formerly iCCup)

The oldest mapmaking team that made maps from beta days on and are led by teamleader and self-proclaimed #1 map-promoter Diamond.
Earlier in the SC2 history they held showmatches and the ESV Korean Weekly to promote their maps. Also they had three maps in ladder from TLMC 1.
In the mapmaking depression of 2012 they underwent big roster changes losing all of their initial members (including the best mapmaker Superouman). Yet they still remain a powerhouse and the biggest brand name in the scene, with mapmakers such as Ironman (creator of Ohana) or Jacky (former GSL mapmaker now Kespa) on their team.
They found and stuck to their own creative yet simple style for some time now, making their creation quite recognizable.

TPW

Second oldest mapmaking team filled with mapmaking veterans. They never had one big breakout map (if you don't count Ohana) yet were always a solid and stable force in the scene and are the most active team in recent days, only getting stronger after adding former ESV captain monitor (creator of Korhal Compound).
Their map(maker)s are quite varied from just very solid to quite innovative and BW remakes, mostly not overstepping the established boundaries tho. Additionally this team has arguably the best aesthetics out of all teams (except Ragoo).

DF

A very recent mapmaking team that could already prove themselves by making DF Atlas (Scorp) for GSL. Basically a team of mapmakers that have gotten into the scene after ESV and TPW were established, not quite as experienced but not lacking in talent and skill either.
As for their style I would describe it as solid and stable in both layouts and execution.

Crux

A Korean mapmaking team that was formed by the GSL mapmakers and provides GOM with maps. They made all the great (and not so great) tournament maps you can think of, ranging from Daybreak, Tal'Darim and Crevasse to Dual Sight, Bel'Shir Beach or Xel'naga Fortress.
After Kespa entered the scene and hired two of their top mapmakers they renewed the team with fresh blood.
Their style is quite solid even tho lately they also made the rather weird Icarus.

Kespa

After entering the scene in late 2012 they also got their own mapmaking team, hiring from Crux/Gom as well as one BW legend.
Their style is the most crazy and progressive, seemingly not caring about any of the rules Blizzard tries to establish for maps. Yet at the same time they are heavily relying on remakes of Broodwar maps. Sometimes they have glaring weaknesses in aesthetics which they don't seem to care about.

Blizzard Mapmaking Team

I have no idea who these people are but they should honestly stop making maps. Blizzard just seems to make maps at will and then has to filter out 95% of the bad maps they produced after all of the players had to endure them on ladder and unfortunate tournaments picked them up.
Their style is conservative, their aesthetics mediocre and they are deaf for most feedback. Or rather they are not really seeking to get feedback from the right people in the first place.
Even tho lately they claim to make maps with tournament feedback, this will remain nothing more but a neat brand for now. They give tournaments their horrible layouts to give feedback on and then put the maps on ladder no matter what it seems (also most tournaments will actually give very little valueable feedback).

Map of the Month

For the longest time the MotM was a stable part of the foreign mapmaking community. Every month this was the motivation for mapmakers to finish their work and get some recognition within the scene. Even if it didn't seem like this was a way to get maps into tournaments, at least people would make a name for themselves and join some team.
The lack of an actual way into tournaments for winner maps was probably what led to the doom of MotM. As people lost interested in making maps during 2012 and they also lost interest in organizing this contest. It's currently put on hold , maybe forever?!

Teamliquid Map Contest

The one thing all mapmakers look forward to. The first TLMC was a milestone for mapmakers and is responsible for the birth of the best WoL map Cloud Kingdom as well as Ohana. TLMC seeems to represent the only chance for foreign mapmakers to get their maps somewhere and thus the hope of another TLMC was what led people through 2012.
Many hopes lie on TLMC 2 and the possibility of future TLMC events. Hopes that show how miserable and lost foreign mapmakers are in the SC2 scene in general.

3. Structure of the global map pool and how to improve it

Tournaments, ladder and mapmakers – A vicious cycle

When thinking about the mapmaking scene and looking at the community maps, the first question that should come to mind is: So how is it that we don't see these maps played when they obviously have a good enough quality?

Well their is two places to get your maps to, ladder and “the global tournament scene“ aka foreign tournaments.
On the one hand the tournaments don't want to take any risks with maps and thus they only accept maps that have previously been used in tournaments or on ladder.
On the other hand you have Blizzard who have often stated that they want to accept tournament maps into their ladder pool, meaning maps that have previously been used in tournaments (and their own map creations).

Now how do foreign mapmakers fit into this cycle? They don't for the most part.
As I explained earlier in Korea and especially in BW the mapmakers were specifically making maps for their associated organization, feeding them with maps directly. Thus also in SC2 the maps that get introduced to the big stage are all introduced first in Korea by Korean tournaments and mapmakers. Only then do Blizzard and foreign tournaments take them.
Foreign mapmakers don't have any direct association with foreign tournaments and basically don't work together with them at all.

Now the second exception to the rule is of course the Teamliquid Map Contest. Remember thus far this only happened once. Last time it allowed three maps to go to ladder directly and from there enter the map pools of tournaments.

What would be ideal for the map choosing process and map pools?

Ideally the foreigner tournaments would work together on a global pool of maps with the mapmakers. The mapmakers are quite capable themselves to choose what would be optimal maps in that case. Altho feedback (especially pro feedback) is always appreciated.

The goal of such a global pool of maps would be two things: Good and diverse map pools and a healthy map rotation.

Let me first explain my thoughts behind more optimal map pools. I believe map pools of 7 maps are actually the maximum, 5 and in some cases 4 maps in the map pool should be prefered tho.
The reason behind is that if the players have to prepare for less maps they can prepare more specifically. On the one hand that means the strategies are going to be more map specific in general. More importantly for mapmaking tho this means that the maps can be much more specific/innovative. This in return then allows for much more specific strategies. Overall this increases diversity of gameplay by a lot and makes every map and its strategic options distinct (and also makes vetoing process and mind games more interesting).

Also remember the last time someone was just „sick good“ on that one map? It was probably in BW right? In SC2 most maps aren't diverse enough that someone would just be crazy good on a specific map.

The concept of smaller map pools is actually proven through BW yet somehow in SC2 it was completely disregarded. Many people argue that this is the case because a bo7 final needs 7 maps. Now first of all I don't see how a single series should so drastically effect the quality of the whole rest of the tournament. Secondly it's not killing a series if you have to replay a maximum of 2 maps, it rather gives completely new possibilities for the mindgames in that series. As stated before the diversity of maps would be greater with smaller map pools, making for a more interesting series in the first place.

Let me explain that when I say 4-5 map map pools that doesn't mean there should be only 4-5 maps played in the foreign scene at any given time. That's just the size of any given tournaments map pool, yet the amount of maps played could actually be as high as like 7-9. That's still probably a reasonable amount of maps you can just roughly know, even tho you only particularly practice the 4-5 maps in an upcoming tournament. Also it's a good amount of maps to pick from for tournaments.

Also I want to add that map pools actually need more thought behind them than just “these are the top x amount maps for our map pool of x amount of maps. That's it!“ Nope, to make good map pools you actually have to think about having all type of maps covered. Do you have a macro map, a really aggressive map, a rock solid map, a just crazy innovative map etc. What are the things gameplay wise you do or do not want to see in the near future and what maps get you there? All these things have to be considered when making a really quality map pool. (see links at the bottom)

Now let's look at map rotation. Map rotation is important for two reasons, first of all it's simply to kick out the bad maps. Especially if you are going to make riskier maps, sometimes they just turn out to be shitty (something that's totally not a horrible thing even tho it shouldn't happen too often). If they can't be fixed at all it's advicable to kick them from the map pool asap.
Secondly the maps simply get stale and boring to spectate (hello Daybreak). A healthy map rotation in my opinion (and roughly used in BW as well) would be the rule that no map can be used for more than a year in any case. But most maps should be rotated after 6 months and it's totally fine for the niche/crazy maps to go out after only one season.

In the case of foreign tournaments I actually would blame a lack of experience and professionalism. Tournaments are doing a ton to increase viewer experience, yet something that is tied so essentially to gameplay quality is almost completely neglected. All they do about it is pick some of the Korean maps and some of the ladder maps and just say: “go“.

People could argue that a reoccurring TLMC would be a solution. However there is several problems with that. First of all the restrictions to make a ladder map are very harsh, for example you can't vary the amount of resources at a base at all. And you can forget about making a map such as Arkanoid at all. Also Blizzard actually changes stuff on maps without ever asking to fit their vision of the maps regardless of it it makes sense to the mapmaker (Korhal Compound's natural choke says hello).
Secondly once a map hits ladder there is a very small chance you can fix it timely like you could with a tournament map if any smaller balance/design problems become obvious. Neither could a map be removed if Blizzard doesn't want to. Also Blizzard really doesn't seem to be willing to communicate with anyone anyway, altho that might change at some point I guess.
Thirdly the tournaments would probably still pick bad map pools without any proper guidance.

All in all tournaments and mapmakers should get together at some point or much of the potential of the foreign mapmaking community will just go to waste and instead we will see a scene dominated by only bad Blizzard maps and Koreans.

Would it really be bad if Koreans dominated mapmaking?

One has to ask himself now, would it even be bad if all the community maps just came from the Korean scene? Yes and no.
No because Koreans are definitely much better than Blizzard mapmakers. They are more diverse, innovative and overall better at their craft in every aspect. Also Koreans have a history of professional mapmaking an strong ties between mapmakers and tournaments that works out perfectly for them.
Yes because while Koreans definitely make good maps, I would argue that the quantitiy of quality maps is simply higher in the west. And it would grow even higher than it is now if foreign mapmakers had similar conditions like Koreans (working directly with tournaments for increased productivity and motivation). This probably has one very simple reason: The foreign mapmaking community is just much bigger than the Korean one which is exceptionally small in SC2.

4. Other random thoughts and information

Battlenet 2.0?

Here is a scenario: I want to play a non-ladder map, let's say DF Atlas.
In proper gaming platforms: I open a lobby and call it „1v1 practice DF Atlas mid-high diamond“. People who want to do that join the game, and if they aren't actually mid-high diamond players I can just kick them.
In SC2: I can't name the lobby. I open the lobby for DF Atlas, some silver player joins. I can't kick him, the game starts immediately (even worse before the changes to Bnet there wasn't a proper open game list so nobody would join your unknown map ever).
Now obviously what I need to do is go in some chat and find someone who is my skill level and willing to play a game on Atlas. This is such big hurdle tho cos there is probably very few people who would want to do that. So I first have to find the right chat(s) etc and be really lucky cos I only ask a small fraction of all players who are online at that time in the whole of bnet.

Nowadays ladder is basically all the 1v1 people would ever want to do with strangers. Even more so now that you can actually play unranked ladder, making custom matches against strangers obsolete in the mind of most people. And the ladder map pools is obviously dictated by Blizzard in both ranked and unranked ladder so...

I hope you get the idea why melee maps never became a hit on bnet and it was more a hinderance than help.

Is the community too whiny and what is the balance of entertainment and imbalance?

The community (thus far) didn't have the most impact on what maps are and aren't chosen (because basically no maps are ever chosen other than Korean maps/Blizz maps which is behind closed doors). However I think this is a point I feel strongly about and want to address here even tho I might address this in more detail in a future thread.
I feel like this community gives many things that deviate from their “standard“ very little chance and is very quick to cry about perceived imbaness or randomness in maps (as well as in SC2 overall which won't be my concern here).

To give you some examples. In 4p rotational maps the close positions are asymmetrical. Both players start with different conditions. Now this leads probably to the #1 complaint I see, picking any difference and proclaiming it imbalanced.
To “fix“ this either you make maps equal in both directions which will inevitably lead to most 4p rotationals just looking like Whirlwind clones and having nothing interesting or new about them.
Or alternatively a perceived “solution“ is to make the map cross only. Now let me say that anyone suggesting cross only for a 4p rotational map hasn't wasted 5 minutes of intelligent thoughts on maps ever. Otherwise you would realize that by making a 4p rotational cross only, you essentially only created a 2p map, but you restricted yourself to make it under the conditions of a 4p rotational (copy pasting main/natural/third four times instead of only two). This is as idiotic as restricting yourself to paint a 10x12 picture for a 20x30 frame or making a racing track for formula 1 cars even tho BMX are meant to ride on it. It makes no sense and you end up with a horrible map that you should just remove if it really only works in cross.

Another example would be anything that seems abusable. Let's take for example a cliff over the natural, if people see that they will immediately rush to the comments and write “omg tanks abuse nat cliff rofl imba“ in allcaps, without ever looking at any context of it. Maybe you actually have a backdoor natural on the map, maybe the cliff is so small even roaches can reach all of it, maybe there is actually a ramp to the cliff etc. It doesn't matter I see so many idiotic comments from people that don't seem to think properly about maps and just start to cry in the comments (and worse than on TL it's the balance whine on like Bnet forums) and it worries me a lot.

Already I'm pretty sure Blizzard stopped making 4p rotational because the community complained too much about them and they keep complaining about any map feature they dislike instead of just embracing something new and exciting.

I personally believe that asymmetry and imbalance is a necessary evil (in the sense that it's not mathemically elegant for a strategy game) to create innovation, diversity and excitement/spectator value. If you are going to do new maps and new features you will inevitably leave the path of perfect 50/50 balance in all matchups. If that was our goal we would find that one balanced map (let's say Daybreak) and just clone it all the time with minimal changes.
But we want to create new stuff and we want to a high spectator value. And trying something new will inevitably lead to imbalances for the better or worse. I believe that imbalances are actually exciting to watch. Of course at some point you have to say no this doesn't work for a proper (e)sport anymore if it gets too much. But I think this line is perceived way too thinly in the western scene who seem to strive for perfect balance first and foremost.

To see players handle new situations and overcome “imbalances“ is one of the most exciting things to watch, and to watch players handle asymmetry like on 3p maps or 4p rotational is basically why we all love this game so much (remember the races are highly asymmetrical themselves).

Common problems with the game design for mapmakers

This is something we likely won't be able to change yet I still want to talk about it a bit, cos I think there is 2-3 very distinct complaints in the mapmaking scene regarding game design.
Let me fist of all note that mapmakers are designers first and foremost, and only secondly will they care about the balance (which nonetheless is integral to the success of a map of course).

The number one problem for maps in Wings of Liberty was how overly hard it was for Protoss to grab a third in PvZ. The inability for Protoss to set up strong independent defenses at two points made farther away third almost impossible which lead to many maps having incredibly close third, making the quality of all other matchups on that map much worse.
Now this problem luckily has been fixed a lot in HotS with the addition of the Mothership Core, something that hopefully leads to a big improvement in thirds and maps in general.

The second problem which remains unfixed is that highground in SC2 (compared to BW, WC3 or Dota) has almost no impact on the game past the early phase when you lack air units. While in Broodwar central highground could be incredibly key points to hold for players, in SC2 you might as well have a completely flat map from the midgame onwards, making for much much less interesting positioning. This is a big problem for mapmakers because they are really limited in what they can do with the middle of a map. Largely highground only have a psychological factor or represent a position behind a chokey ramp that is hard to move up to (but also down from) the highground.
I'm probably going to write a thread on how highground in SC2 makes no sense later and illustrate this issue with pictures.

Who can even judge maps?

Well everyone can of course claim to judge maps properly but let me give you my opinion who can and who can't judge a map properly.

As maybe I made clear previously I believe the general public can not judge maps, most of the comments on maps I see from the average forum person either makes little sense or is directed at the aesthetics of a map (which often makes little sense as well).

So could I maybe say the average high level viewer could judge a map? No, I totally don't think so. Judging a map's layout is best done from the overview and people who aren't experienced at looking at overviews won't come to the right conclusions or even identify proportions or architecture correctly.

So who can even judge maps? Well people that watch high level play and are experienced at looking at map overviews for a long time could right? Right. And that is for the most part mapmakers themselves, as arrogant as that may sound. The people who practice this craft day in and day out and theorycraft it constantly with others are indeed the best people to judge the work. But careful, when I say that I'm only talking about 2 aspects of a map. That is the layout, architecture or idea of a map. And secondly that is the execution or aesthetics of the map.

There is however a third aspect which is very important and that is the balance of a map. Now while experienced mapmakers and those who followed mapmaking and high level gaming for a long time certainly have something to say about balance, when it comes to specifics there is a totally different type of people you need to ask: pro players.
While pro players are generally race biased and are often only good for telling you what is and what isn't abusable in their specific matchups, they are the ones who can do the actual testing and theorycrafting for anything regarding balance and in the end you can only trust what the professionals find out through that when it comes to balance.
Altho that said most maps aren't pro player tested and do fine regardless, because mapmakers mostly don't go beyond certain explored boundaries. If they do however go outside of boundaries they are used to use and theorycraft about, testing becomes mandatory.

How much time do mapmakers invest and what is their motivation?

Another question that I imagine people commonly ask themselves. Making a good map, including reacting to feedback and doing high level aesthetics (very time consuming) can easily take over 30 hours, meaning people will work 1-2 weeks on a map easily. Additionally to even get on a good level of mapmaking it takes at least several month, many of the mapmakers have been doing this since beta days (and beyond that in other games ofc).
Also many days people have lengthy discussions about maps which I would count as essential to become really good, as well as obviously watching the game a lot and to some extend having played the game for a little while.

So why do mapmakers invest so much time into this without getting any profit? Well for the vast majority of mapmakers it's simply their love for the game and the fact that they want to watch the best possible maps and have the best possible spectator experience.
The dream of actually making money with mapmaking is so far off that I don't think anyone was ever in it for the hope of any money. And honestly, seeing a good map played is already all the satisfaction I could get from this (and it doesn't have to be my map altho that would obviously make it cooler right?!).

The future of mapmaking

Currently the TLMC 2 is running and we can all hope for good results and that the maps are picked up for ladder/tournament play.
Other than that there is nothing really on the horizon bar the hope that in the future foreign tournaments might start to value mapmaking higher and work together with foreign mapmakers to create a better game. Maybe next TLMC won't be in another 2 years, that would help

tl;dr Nope.

I want to emphasize again that I really encourage you to challenge my views when I got subjective in the second half and write your own opinion! It's interesting to know what everyone else thinks about this as well.

Links:
sc2melee.net Biggest SC2 map database
Maps in the Balance by Xxio, an article discussing the role of maps for Balance in comparison with Broodwar
The Spectator Factor by Barrin, on map “imbalances” and their impact on spectator value
Map Pool Creation Guide by ESV Diamond
Discussion topic on Mapmaking Union (ignore Siskos)
TLMC 1 Results
TLMC 2

RFDaemoniac

United States544 Posts

May 09 2013 18:15 GMT

Hey Ragoo, thanks so much for writing this up. You ask us to challenge what you're saying and I will spend the coming days looking for things that I think you missed or got wrong, but my first read through leaves me quite happy with your representation of the scene.

One thing that comes to mind that wasn't clear to me when I was getting into the scene is how many maps have been made that are amazing. I would place the number of maps made in the past three years that are tournament ready at about 150. That is a TON of maps that never see the light of day because the map pool system is stunted.

The ratings on sc2melee.net are all below 8 on a 10 point scale, but please remember that these ratings are aggregate, and people will vote maps very negatively if they have a single issue with them. Only 13 out of the top 100 maps on sc2melee have ever seen tournament use...

EDIT: I also want to emphasize "ignore Siskos" in the map union thread... God that died hard over some silly semantics.

lorestarcraft

United States1049 Posts

May 09 2013 18:39 GMT

I obtained permission from the OP to promote the newest map-making team on the scene so here goes:

[image loading]

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The team is committed to providing a premier map development experience to the Western StarCraft II scene, establishing a rigorous peer-review process for their maps. They have also formed partnerships with multiple SC2 teams and clans to test each map for any quality or balance issues well before they arise in premier tournaments.

You can check out Galaxy maps in the up-coming Ritmix RSL gNations where top players from Korea and around the world will compete on the Galaxy maps, Bloodmist Refuge and Mammoth.

Please be sure to check out our website and sponsors. Thanks you.

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Targe

United Kingdom14103 Posts

May 09 2013 18:42 GMT

This was cool to read as someone who knows very little, thanks!

ScorpSCII

Denmark499 Posts

May 09 2013 18:54 GMT

Great read. Agree with everything said.

Ctone23

United States1839 Posts

May 09 2013 19:00 GMT

Anyone else open this up thinking FOR SURE it was about hacking?? ;p

Haha, great write up!

Meerel

Germany713 Posts

May 09 2013 19:03 GMT

awesome writeup. hopefully many more will read it

NewSunshine

United States5938 Posts

May 09 2013 19:09 GMT

Very comprehensive, without being too long. A surprisingly good write-up, many props.

Although, if there's a person who's going to go through it with a fine-tooth comb, it's probably not me :p

bGr.MetHiX

Bulgaria511 Posts

May 09 2013 19:12 GMT

Great work. Just a great read, i must agree with almost everything u said there.especially about the part where blizzard should just stop making maps.

mangoloid

100 Posts

May 09 2013 19:20 GMT

#10

I'm going to give perhaps the sole voice in defense of Blizz's map makers. They've made a lot of bad maps, yes, but the worst maps were made when the game was new and nobody knew how to play. Over the past few years, they've gotten a lot better, and are also willing to try new things (in spite of their conservative style). The community mappers are still better than Blizzard's and should be preferred in tournaments, but I also think Blizz deserves more credit. Personally, as someone who likes team games, I appreciate Blizzard's mapping improvement; from WoL to HotS, team game maps have gone from garbage to almost playable. By LotV, I'm sure their maps will improve to the point that they are not universally disliked. ^_^

RFDaemoniac

United States544 Posts

May 09 2013 19:26 GMT

#11

The hate for blizzard comes from the stubbornness. Not that the maps that they make are always terrible, but that they are always worse in every enumerable way than the maps made by the Korean or international community.

Ragoo

Germany2773 Posts

May 09 2013 19:34 GMT

#12

On May 10 2013 04:20 mangoloid wrote:
I'm going to give perhaps the sole voice in defense of Blizz's map makers. They've made a lot of bad maps, yes, but the worst maps were made when the game was new and nobody knew how to play. Over the past few years, they've gotten a lot better, and are also willing to try new things (in spite of their conservative style). The community mappers are still better than Blizzard's and should be preferred in tournaments, but I also think Blizz deserves more credit. Personally, as someone who likes team games, I appreciate Blizzard's mapping improvement; from WoL to HotS, team game maps have gone from garbage to almost playable. By LotV, I'm sure their maps will improve to the point that they are not universally disliked. ^_^

I have removed the picture if Incineration Zone now, that was maybe a bit unfair as Blizzard themselves removed it quite quickly from ladder. As you said their most horrible maps were early on, Incineration Zone, Steppes of War, Delta Quadrant or Kulas Ravine were really beyond horrible gameplay wise.

On the other hand I would be very careful when defending Blizzard's mapmaking efforts. I read the argument that they have gotten better a lot during the years. Yet the thing is that they are 1) always far behind community mapmakers in every aspect 2) very conservative 3) their map production/picking process is going on behind closed doors and the community has little influence on what is going on.

I think it can not be our wish to see more of their maps added to ladder while there are tons of good maps that don't get played anywhere. Yet that is the reality of things and we probably have to live with it, but it's definitely not something I would defend Blizzard for.

edit: What Daemoniac said.

Exarl25

1887 Posts

May 09 2013 19:50 GMT

#13

Good read. These problems have been around for so long, been brought up so often, but keep fading away and nothing significant really changes. I really wish the community could get more fired up about this. Maps are such a crucial part of the game, they keep it fresh, they keep it interesting, they can even help keep it balanced. BW proved this, why have we forgotten? WoL was so stale towards the end in no small part due to the never-changing, identical map pools. The same thing happening in HotS would be a tragedy.

SidianTheBard

United States2474 Posts

May 09 2013 21:05 GMT

#14

Their style is conservative, their aesthetics mediocre and they are deaf for most feedback. Or rather they are not really seeking to get feedback from the right people in the first place.

It's weird though, because on campaign maps, the aesthetics are completely amazing for the most part. One would assume the people who design those maps would be the same ones that create multiplayer maps. Part of me wonders is if Blizzard has done all the Spec Tests to see what the average players computer is like and tries to limit their doodad work in multiplayer maps to reflect that. Although, many of the doodads don't really lower performance much. You got to remember, they probably don't want another Metropolis issue where they have to take it off ladder for having fps issues.

myk3

Austria80 Posts

May 09 2013 21:59 GMT

#15

Thanks, nice read. I like your idea of smaller map pools and more diverse maps as well as faster map cycles in general. And even though I agree on your opinion, that the average forum poster doesn´t look at a map through the eyes of a pro who actually has to play that map, one should make use of the possibility to aquire a large sample size.

I think it would be great if the Unranked Ladder could be used as testing ground for maps, maybe twice as many maps as currently in ladder with a _much_ faster rotation. On ladder there would be like the current top 5 from unranked play maybe? Of course there would be a lot of things to think about, like how to select the maps for unranked ladder without compromising blizzards standards, but in the long run it certainly would keep the game fresh and interesting and would promote experimentation and adaptation in everyone´s play a lot more than the chase for the perfect win ratio in all matchups.
And for any BOX style match, loser´s pick is much more valuable if the maps are more diverse, which makes the whole series (probably) more interesting than a repeat of the so considered "standard" play.

408xParadox

United States140 Posts

May 09 2013 22:04 GMT

#16

Its a damn shame the korean weekly stopped. Awesome players we never got to see play normally. Awesome maps, that we never got to see, and Orb and Adebisi were an awesome casting crew. I was so surprised that some of their maps never made it into widespread tournament play like Sanshorn Mists.

Its actually really sad that these foreign teams are making so many good maps that just sit on the map section of these forums and get a few pages of replies. A lot of them are tournament quality maps, and the fact they are not being used compared to Blizzard maps or old ones like Daybreak is sickening.

FlyingBeer

United States262 Posts

May 10 2013 17:37 GMT

#17

Is it any coincidence that you released this article the same day TLMC 2 ended and you were announced as one of the judges?

asdfOu

United States2089 Posts

May 10 2013 17:39 GMT

#18

On May 10 2013 07:04 408xParadox wrote:
Its a damn shame the korean weekly stopped. Awesome players we never got to see play normally. Awesome maps, that we never got to see, and Orb and Adebisi were an awesome casting crew. I was so surprised that some of their maps never made it into widespread tournament play like Sanshorn Mists.

Its actually really sad that these foreign teams are making so many good maps that just sit on the map section of these forums and get a few pages of replies. A lot of them are tournament quality maps, and the fact they are not being used compared to Blizzard maps or old ones like Daybreak is sickening.

this^^

GameHeart

286 Posts

May 10 2013 17:41 GMT

#19

Blizzard should add a second ladder which just uses recent community maps and awards double points (experience probably not ladder points) or something just to get people playing them. And maybe cycle them every 1 or 2 months to get fresh maps in. If one map really stands out move it to the main ladder.

I think a lot of people would play on a ladder with community maps just for a change of pace every now and then. It would create some variety in laddering, get much needed testing and visibility for community maps, and allow the creme to rise to the top.

NewSunshine

United States5938 Posts

May 10 2013 17:53 GMT

#20

On May 11 2013 02:37 FlyingBeer wrote:
Is it any coincidence that you released this article the same day TLMC 2 ended and you were announced as one of the judges?

It's more a coincidence that it was written a matter of hours before a certain mapmaking show, intended as a topic of discussion. Turns out it wasn't needed, but yes, it is a coincidence.

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