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First of all, thanks for the kind feedback you guys gave me in WIP thread, it helped alot and motivated me to keep working on the map. I spent many more hours on it and am now at a point where Im quite content with the result. I've been testing it with a few people and the responses have been great so far. I think I might be on to something good here.
Here is what it looks like now:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dT7Jhen.jpg)
More detailed view:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Id7xCAh.jpg)
What I'm really happy about is, that it does play out the way I intendet it to. On the one side the players feel safe, the Watchtower secures the easy attacking route through the middle, and its relatively easy to take 3 bases and even the 4th isnt too far off. Large rocks leave only a little choke entry to ur 3rd, so ur only worry at first is that one ramp. On the other hand the players have a feeling of a constant threat from the highgrounds, since from there you not only have a sight advantage but also can easily switch between different angles to attack the 2nd, 3rd and 4th from while the defender will have a hard time deciding where to position the army and thus will always have to be very careful about the highground and therefor cant just turtle themselves in even though as long as most rocks are up you are actually quite safe.
Thats the 2nd point Im glad it turned out the way as intended, as u can see there are quite a few rocks helping the defender to be rather safe. Eliminating the rocks is quite crucial though and will change the course of the game dramatically. This means a player can hurt the opponent alot without directly attacking him, just investing in a few early units to get rid of important rocks early on for example. For this reason I hope that there will be many different possible scenarios for games on this map.
The most obvious example for this are the large rocks on the 3rd, when they are still up the main danger is the highground, if they are down early a player me even have to decide that he cannot take his third there and take it at the 4th which is even more exposed to the highground, however this would eliminate the backdoor attack possibility at the natural, etc.
So that were the two main ideas here: Constant threat from the highgrounds, and a strong strategic effect of destroying rocks. So far I had about 20 test games on this map and they really seemed balanced although its really too early to say that for sure.
However there are still a few thoughts on the map Im not too sure about yet.
First of all I am hoping for feedback of a more experienced mapper, since I feel like small details maybe easy to oversee yet can have a great effect. Second point are the large rocks at the third, even though I really like them and how they have such a strong effect on the game I'm a bit afraid that especially for terrans, this might be too easy to defend. Basically they can jus turtle in there and have 2 siege tanks cover every entry. On the other hand the opponent could just go ahead and destroy the rocks. And without the rocks it just seems impossible for Protoss to take a third. I dont know, I guess it will have to show through more testing but maybe you guys have some good ideas or maybe you will reassure me, that its fine and interesting the way it is.
I'd also be very glad for more people testing the map out, especially terran players, since I'm lacking those in my friendslist xD
Its currently up on EU Server.
So yeah, I'm looking forward to hear a few opinions ! Btw, this is my first map (well 2nd but first one I was just figuring out the editor with  ) so dont be too harsh.
Thank you for reading and for all the feedback so far, it really helped alot.
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I think the layout is really neat. Sorry I didn't comment on it in the WiP thread... But it's really improved since then.
I guess the one concern I might have with it is just the difficulty of a fifth... tougher than even Ohana, right? Maybe you need like a half base on the high ground with it's back towards the center or something. You'd need to widen the plateau a bit to fit it in without making it too squishy there with a town hall, though, but I think you could do that.
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On February 16 2013 02:43 Gfire wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think the layout is really neat. Sorry I didn't comment on it in the WiP thread... But it's really improved since then.
I guess the one concern I might have with it is just the difficulty of a fifth... tougher than even Ohana, right? Maybe you need like a half base on the high ground with it's back towards the center or something. You'd need to widen the plateau a bit to fit it in without making it too squishy there with a town hall, though, but I think you could do that.
I will disagree with GFire on this one about where to place that fifth base. If you are trying to force a base in (which although this map is low econ, I really don't see a problem with forcing low econ games personally), I would much rather have it placed in front of the plateaus towards the middle than on the highground, with a 120-180 degree angle of attack. I think this would allow the good player to get to a 5th base more easily than currently. It does not give an automatic 5th base as GFire's suggestion would do. and it will encourage harassment/back and forth across the middle and to hit the third once the rocks are broken down.
My major concern, and this is due to the map size from what I can see, would be a slow push from terran. But the openness of the middle should be able to counter-act that I think with surrounds. This is an issue I am struggling with currently myself on a map of mine -- so good job there.
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On February 16 2013 02:50 SigmaFiE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 02:43 Gfire wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think the layout is really neat. Sorry I didn't comment on it in the WiP thread... But it's really improved since then.
I guess the one concern I might have with it is just the difficulty of a fifth... tougher than even Ohana, right? Maybe you need like a half base on the high ground with it's back towards the center or something. You'd need to widen the plateau a bit to fit it in without making it too squishy there with a town hall, though, but I think you could do that. I will disagree with GFire on this one about where to place that fifth base. If you are trying to force a base in (which although this map is low econ, I really don't see a problem with forcing low econ games personally), I would much rather have it placed in front of the plateaus towards the middle than on the highground, with a 120-180 degree angle of attack. I think this would allow the good player to get to a 5th base more easily than currently. It does not give an automatic 5th base as GFire's suggestion would do. and it will encourage harassment/back and forth across the middle and to hit the third once the rocks are broken down. My major concern, and this is due to the map size from what I can see, would be a slow push from terran. But the openness of the middle should be able to counter-act that I think with surrounds. This is an issue I am struggling with currently myself on a map of mine -- so good job there.
You're right, the fifth shouldn't be totally given either. It's possible that, if you have the minerals close enough to the edge my suggestion would still work. The base would be easier to take and harder to deny, but mining time could be denied easily. I don't know if it would work but I like this idea since if you lose center control for a moment, you don't just lose your base and then have to completely rebuild it again when you reclaim the space, which takes forever. You won't even try it unless you know you can hold it for long enough to get the base up and mine for long enough to pay for it, unless you're T who can float a CC.
If you only need to control mid to secure the minerals but not the town hall, then you can send your guys back to mine as soon as you've cleaned up the low ground, and we should see more back-and-forth and more frequent action centered around them.
Really just theorycraft though.
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Yeah I think you guys are right, in an earlier version there used to be a half gold base outside of the highgrounds, the map was a bit longer than so it was just outside of the watch tower vision. Then I realized zerg would have the disadvantage since their creep would show. I dont like the idea of the watchtower being able to scout bases so if I would add another base I might add it on the highgrounds but then Im kind of scared that it will be a really powerfull base especially in late game when other bases maybe mind out and a terran sits up on the highgrounds with siegetanks and a PF since u also can defend the routes to the main pretty good from the highgrounds, so I'm not too sure about that. I wish I had some good spot left out on the map 
Maybe I should consider adding half a base on the highgrounds.
I'm gonna figure something out. As I said thanks for the feedback, it helps alot
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Awesome map so addicting I already played ~10 games on it<3 Still don't like the watchtower but guess it is where it is
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The way to set it up 2more would be on the highground, in front of the 2 ramps coming off of 4 and on the middle's edge) build up the terrain a little so it makes a nice curve (refer to Cloud Kingdom for a "nice" curve at bases 4 o the lowground edge). Than you fit the minerals/gas either right on the edge or just 1 cell of of it. This new position has the effect of slightly pulling units that would sit on the highground to defend (siege tanks) a little more away from where the base would be attacked (because they won't sit in the mineral line/area), and also puts the resource line that much closer to the attacker so they can attack/retreat a little easier than having to run ALL the way up to the wall.
If you position it correctly and rotate properly I think you can keep the base outside of vision (although it is not necessarily a bad thing to let the vision just BARELY see a mineral patch or 2 for this purpose--but that is a personal opinion because I like aggression). If you can't keep it ouside of vision, than if you wanted to you could contract the watch tower's vision range through the data editor, which would solve that problem. Personally, I would contract it by 3 or 4 less normal (20 I believe? Someone verify?) and see how you like that. It gives slightly less edge to the watchtower's dominance of the center, but does not negate it and increases the viability of a highground and harassable base.
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Alright so this is what it looks like now, in the end I decided to go with your idea Gfire. I think it makes sense, because like this it will be very vulnarable to any range units, using the watch tower vision. I ended up with a compromise, the tower will now scout the mineral line but the hatch/cc/nexus will still be out of sight. So at least it wont be scouted until there are workers mining. Its a half base so I think that also provides that this position won't be worth too much.
I preferred Sigmas idea myself too, but theres just no room to put a base down there that wont be scouted by the tower, even if I pull down the entire plateau.
So yeah, this is it now:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JdLjYm2.jpg)
Edit:
@Sigma: Well I prefer this position to what u described, simply because its further away from the main and thus making it harder to defend it (at least I would think so). So it won't be a good option to get this too early, since its kind of "out there" I also feel like in the end it was a good idea to put a base on the highground, since it might actually be a nice step towards getting the 6th on the 9 position later on. Maybe it will play out like early till midgame u'll have to deal with the highgrounds as a threat, to then finally take it over and stabalize there and from there being able to defend the later 6th easier.
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Get rid of that cardinal ramp (turn 45 degrees) -- and I would suggest moving your resource line and the terrain 1 or 2 cells away from the middle -- judging by that watchtower sight line I would guess that the vision will catch the corner of a base planted there and than I think you're good to go.
Just noticed another tidbit -- on your Main's ramp -- make sure it is not wallable with just a barracks and 1 supply depot. That early scouting information is very important.
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Well it didnt used to be cardinal, somewhy everybody here seems to hate those ramps. I changed it that way because I wanted it to have a more natural flow into the backentry of the natural and at the same time to the potential 4th. About the mains ramp, I thought I did it right, but u saw that correct. Its fixed now. Thanks
I did arrange the 5th base so it would be just out of sight of the tower. So thats just fine
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Great map!
The center is super boring. I think you could do a lot more with it. Not sure what exactly. Probably some assortment of highground and lowground.
The rocks in the middle ramps are weird to me... they make early game split paths, which I don't like. Also they increase the rush distance for not much reason. I'd just remove them and adjust the ramp's location.
The rocks the separate the side expos (fourth and opponent's fifth) don't solve the problem there. The expansions are too close to be split between players. Those expos are taken so late in the game that the rocks don't actually do anything to improve it. I think you need to adjust it so that there is a viable fourth+fifth for zerg. It might mean increasing the map size or adding another two expos.
Soo... a compilation of my suggestions might look something like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AfBWPlM.jpg)
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I really like this map quite a bit. Good flow and feel.
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First map? If so then very well done!
I really liked this map in the WIP thread, and you have made more good changes thanks to Gfire's great advice.
That centre is a bit borign unfortunately, but there isnt much to be done about it since it is about the right openness you want for that midfield with all the nearby chokes.
I don't like how the watchtower can see up the nearby half bases, even though I really like those bases.
Good work and good luck!
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Honestly, all the feedback really helps alot
@etcetra: Yeah in the end I agree, having that base in the watchtowers vision would be too much, its already quite exposed with its mineralline facing the middle, so I fixed that.
@monitor: The rocks werent meant to seperate those two bases, they were meant to make the third a bit easier to hold in early to midgame, also note that there is a small gap, so the rocks to the highground really dont effect the rush distance, since u still always can go straight through the middle of the map, bypassing those rocks to get to the opponent. I felt like the rocks were good to make sure that attacking through the highground would mean having to go for the longer route until you get rid of those rocks. Altogether I wanted to create a possibility to show early aggression without directly attacking an opponent in case they turtle in, since the first 3 bases are relatively safe as long as the rocks are up.
You were right about the 5th (now 6th) being too close to the opponents 3rd, so I pulled it down a bit closer to the highground. The idea is that taking the 5th half base on the highground will create a natural flow to later secure the 6th from there if necessary. Although, I feel too nooby to really know that its actually gonna play out like that, but thats what I want.
So a little update on how it looks like now:
+ Show Spoiler +
Another version, where I've just been trying something out. It looks kind of cool but I guess it messes up a lot of the original layout, especially the area outside of the 3rd is now quite hideous and pointless, but its an idea, maybe I'll find a way to make this work out:
+ Show Spoiler +
What I really dont like about the process of mapmaking is, that the further you get the less room for changes you seem to have. Like with fixing one issue you create another. For instance now Im a bit worried that the map is quite obviously devided in half. Not sure if I like that.
Anyways, if anybody has an idea on what to do with the middle, please tell me. Everybody that has tested the map tells me its great but that the middle just feels pointless really. And well I agree but I feel like especially zerg will need this open space. I think it kinda feels like entombed valley, where I always feel like the middle is just a big unknown nothing.
Also if anybody wants to test the map, that would be great. It's only on EU thought.
alright cheers !
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I think the middle needs to be that "boring". Otherwise the map will be too chokey. edit: Of course, you could change the XNT situation without affecting the terrain. Could go with 0 XNTs, or 1 on the left and 1 on the right with some gap inbetween the visions in the middle. Anyway it looks nice.
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(XNT? what does that mean?) Never Mind I figured it out ^^
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ooNRqgE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fm0MvTz.jpg)
