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So, as there have been some discussions going on, I decided to make a Test Map on WoL to play around with some ideas about the said 3units.
In my opinion, roaches on their own are too powerful, Hydralisks too weak and Infestors generally too strong, mainly because they are the only Spellcaster that can convert all their energy quite effectively into damage through infested terrans.
So without further ado, those are the changes I've implemented right now but could be changed:
Roach Range 4-->3
Roach Speed 2.25-->2.81
Roach Speed Upgrade Removed
Hydralisk damage 12(+1)-->15(+2) and attack speed 0.83-->1.00
Hydralisk Range Upgrade now requires Hive and provides +2range
Hydralisk Speed Upgrade added at Lair (100/100/80seconds)
IT eggs from 100-->80 HP
IT damage 8-->6
Fungal Growth root effect changed to 60% slow.
The map is "Ohana Roach Hydra Test" and can be found in the custom game section of EU
Keep in mind this is a test map. Before posting how Hydralisks are imba with those changes, or roaches cannot beat Protoss Warp Gate allins, feel free to test the changes.
So, here are some Master vs Master replays of me testing those things.
ZvZ
http://drop.sc/268597 (still with Infestors rooting)
PvZ
http://drop.sc/268595
http://drop.sc/268598
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I can't actually play at the moment, for various reasons, but I'd be happy to read anything you might find.
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I actually think they should have done all of this 2 years ago
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Wouldn't reducing roach range make reapers imbalanced again? Especially with regen etc.
I really like the IT/Hydra changes though, but tbh I don't see that much of a point testing it in wol, you can't really propose a change to hots and then leave out all the hots changes. Though I do know that the hots editor is semi broken right now and this way it's a lot more accessible to people since the beta's population is still pretty low compared to wol's, so I guess I'll run some games on it next time I'm playing wol.
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On October 26 2012 01:20 Lorch wrote:
Wouldn't reducing roach range make reapers imbalanced again? Especially with regen etc.
I really like the IT/Hydra changes though, but tbh I don't see that much of a point testing it in wol, you can't really propose a change to hots and then leave out all the hots changes. Though I do know that the hots editor is semi broken right now and this way it's a lot more accessible to people since the beta's population is still pretty low compared to wol's, so I guess I'll run some games on it next time I'm playing wol.
No. Reaper speed is removed in HoTS and moved to factory tech in WoL, queens have 5 range, and in HoTS, reapers don't deal bonus damage to buildings. 5-rax reaper was nerfed from every angle.
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On October 26 2012 01:20 Lorch wrote:
Wouldn't reducing roach range make reapers imbalanced again? Especially with regen etc.
I really like the IT/Hydra changes though, but tbh I don't see that much of a point testing it in wol, you can't really propose a change to hots and then leave out all the hots changes. Though I do know that the hots editor is semi broken right now and this way it's a lot more accessible to people since the beta's population is still pretty low compared to wol's, so I guess I'll run some games on it next time I'm playing wol.
Well, there is no reaper speed in HotS and it was nerfed to factory in WoL + reaper build times was nerfed, rax requires depot first.
But on top of that, the change to let roaches start with a (weaker form of) speed does take into account that 4range roaches are now quite more kiteable and get less hits of.
But 2.81 speed isn't too bad (slightly slower than stalker, slightly slower than speedroach) and in a defensive situation, you will now have 3.653 speed roaches instead of 2.92 early on.
I agree that it would be more interesting to test on HotS, but after all I don't have beta access 
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Roach Range 4-->3
This makes attacking cannons behind buildings almost impossible. If the cannon is 1 hex back, the roach cant reach it. Cannons have 7 range, i was of the understanding that the main reason for the roach range buff was exactly this?
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I don't really see how a Zerg is supposed to hold a Protoss sentry+immortal+stalker all-in with those changes. Hydras will most likely be too late and roaches will be force-fielded to death..
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On October 26 2012 01:43 Cyro wrote:This makes attacking cannons behind buildings almost impossible. If the cannon is 1 hex back, the roach cant reach it. Cannons have 7 range, i was of the understanding that the main reason for the roach range buff was exactly this?
yeah I know. That's the most controversal change imo. But it's the most efficient when it comes to nerfing mass roach.
The other approach would be to leave the speed and range the same and nerf the attack speed to ~2.5.
But I'm pretty sure that the range buff was not done because of canons. At that time, Protoss did not FFE.
It was the same patch as all the reaper nerfs and there were some troubles with hellions early countering roaches through kiting and never getting shot. With the earlier speed, the reaper and the hellion should be taken care of. FFE busting is hardly seen these days and is mostly reliant on bad scouting. Canons counter roach rushes each way, but yeah, the degree might be a little stronger, but the roach rush also hits faster with the speed!
On October 26 2012 01:58 YumYumGranola wrote:
I'm curious which race you play?
The nerfs are a lot more significant than the buffs IMO. Slow roaches being the biggest one. An extra 1-2 dps for hydras hardly makes up for the fact that Zerg will get owned b pretty much any ff timing, especially with reduce range. If they are returned to a 1 supply unit then MAYBE this would be fair...maybe
I play Zerg. (and a lot of T these days, but not on the ladder)
Sentry/Immortal is a problem to begin with. You cannot hold it if the Protoss FFs perfectly.
Roaches now have 2.81 speed, speedroaches have 3.00... That change is not really big and if it really would be the source of problems (I doubt it, 3range is probably going to make a lot more problems, starting with kiting zealots and generally vs FF).
Also: Come online and try to kill me with FF timings 
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I'm curious which race you play?
The nerfs are a lot more significant than the buffs IMO. Slow roaches being the biggest one. An extra 1-2 dps for hydras hardly makes up for the fact that Zerg will get owned b pretty much any ff timing, especially with reduce range. If they are returned to a 1 supply unit then MAYBE this would be fair...maybe
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On October 26 2012 01:29 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:20 Lorch wrote:
Wouldn't reducing roach range make reapers imbalanced again? Especially with regen etc.
I really like the IT/Hydra changes though, but tbh I don't see that much of a point testing it in wol, you can't really propose a change to hots and then leave out all the hots changes. Though I do know that the hots editor is semi broken right now and this way it's a lot more accessible to people since the beta's population is still pretty low compared to wol's, so I guess I'll run some games on it next time I'm playing wol. No. Reaper speed is removed in HoTS and moved to factory tech in WoL, queens have 5 range, and in HoTS, reapers don't deal bonus damage to buildings. 5-rax reaper was nerfed from every angle.
As far as I know, Reaper speed still exists in HOTS. They said that they will remove it and give it the Combat drugs upgrade, but they didn't remove it and gave them Combat Drugs by default.
@Big J
I don't know, your changes at other thread were a lot more drastic to the Roach, like this, it is nerf to their range, but it might actually be a buff overall considering that they now start with speed upgrade(not exactly the same speed, but not really a big difference either). Wouldn't that be even more deadly for early all-ins with Zerglings, Roaches and maybe Banelings than it is now?
And call me crazy, but with this change I see Roaches a lot more useful vs. a Terran player than they are right now, just not having a speed requirement is a huge buff, and Roaches never were about the range vs. Terran player.
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On October 26 2012 02:19 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:29 kcdc wrote:On October 26 2012 01:20 Lorch wrote:
Wouldn't reducing roach range make reapers imbalanced again? Especially with regen etc.
I really like the IT/Hydra changes though, but tbh I don't see that much of a point testing it in wol, you can't really propose a change to hots and then leave out all the hots changes. Though I do know that the hots editor is semi broken right now and this way it's a lot more accessible to people since the beta's population is still pretty low compared to wol's, so I guess I'll run some games on it next time I'm playing wol. No. Reaper speed is removed in HoTS and moved to factory tech in WoL, queens have 5 range, and in HoTS, reapers don't deal bonus damage to buildings. 5-rax reaper was nerfed from every angle. As far as I know, Reaper speed still exists in HOTS. They said that they will remove it and give it the Combat drugs upgrade, but they didn't remove it and gave them Combat Drugs by default. @Big J I don't know, your changes at other thread were a lot more drastic to the Roach, like this, it is nerf to their range, but it might actually be a buff overall considering that they now start with speed upgrade(not exactly the same speed, but not really a big difference either). Wouldn't that be even more deadly for early all-ins with Zerglings, Roaches and maybe Banelings than it is now? And call me crazy, but with this change I see Roaches a lot more useful vs. a Terran player than they are right now, just not having a speed requirement is a huge buff, and Roaches never were about the range vs. Terran player.
Well, I don't think we can walk huge steps with such tweaks. Doing two things at once on the hydralisk and on the roach is more than enough to start things off. Also I think if we want to get blizzards attention with such changes, they shouldn't be too drastic. Just stuff like: "you know, we tested those small changes and people really liked it. How about you give something like that a try?"
The roach does probably have a slightly different dynamic early on. But I think it isn't too bad, if you have roaches that can pressure and retreat early. Stuff like bunker/canon behind walls makes a bigger difference now. The speed helps with a lot of stuff, but for "strategies" like midgame roach maxes this is definatly a (killing?) blow.
But most of all, I can just encourage you to test it yourself and post your replays and/or reply here
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I have been doing a similar thing putting my own changes in the editor but my map isn't ready to allow full testing yet (I want all the HOTS units in it first)
I am on the NA server or else I would love to play test with you 
I gave roaches speed with requirement of evo chamber, and added a new buff to lair
(Instead of just a early buff this makes it a choice you can make sooner)
Roach (Lair Upgrade)
1 armor
Slightly faster life regen
+15 life
This keeps roaches roaches and with a few small buffs to the other races I don't see mass roach as a problem. (The way I see it roaches are strong and efficient in small conflicts and should remain that way) But The other races need good ways to deal with them. My choice is buff siege tanks but reduce deployment time. keep WM as is maybe a 3.5 second deployment. Then give +10 shields to zealots and a minor speed buff (Early roaches will lose out pretty heavy on this)
and make stalker damage 13 (+5 light) This would make roach all-ins nearly ineffective and keep roaches a potent threat on the open field.
And then I gave Hydralisks
(I prefer an initial hydra with more range and a smaller upgrade this again makes the upgrade more of a choice do I need this rather then I have to get this. It also means my hydras are more effective early without insane dps)
+1 range
(Slight speed buff)
Increased life to 90
A range upgrade at hive for +1 and a speed upgrade at lair.
This gives you a reason to get out hydralisks early and makes them a real threat on the battle field able to kite roaches and maximize their dps much more quickly. A faster tougher hydra also means that zerg is no longer without an adequate AA and makes a muta player more weary.
This makes both units more "robust?"
A heavier tankier Roach.
A powerful ranged foe of the hydralisk.
I also added a lair upgrade for lings "Rending Claws" +2 damage
This may seem unnecessary but with the nature of lings now they are almost not considered. This would mean leaving an expansion unguarded would be ridiculous. Surrounds flanks and ling counters would be an even larger consideration helping to break up deathballs and force more scouting.
Of coarse I added a lot more like Extending siege tank deployment time but buffing them considerably elsewhere and changing colossus considerably.
Here are some of the changes I put in to address the issues of roaches hydras and infestors by changing the other races.
Here is just a few of my changes for consideration.
+ Show Spoiler +Buffed Zealots + Show Spoiler ++10 shields
Slight speed buff
This makes zealots a little harder to micro against for marines/marauders roaches ect. Helps you get them into position faster and get good surrounds or harass with a few zealots. It makes they tougher over all and makes them more of a threat better meat-shields and all that.
Changed Stalkers + Show Spoiler +13 damage (+5 Light)
An upgrade at the dark shrine
Minor Movement speed buff 1 second cloak after blink
Blink timer down to 8
This makes stalkers feel more like a dark shadow warrior then it dose currently. You can really harass with them but it (Very slighty) hurts blink stalker all in with a reduction of 1.44 dps against armored. (This is much more significant then it appears) But it gives stalkers a fast hit and run feel.
Sentry FF + Show Spoiler +Reduced FF range to 7 from 9
Makes it a little harder to use offensively
It is actually a very big difference and you can really feel it in play it makes splitting an army much harder and makes you want to sit back a bit more with your sentries (The other buffs to gateway change this however)
Khaydarin Amulet + Show Spoiler +It makes a reappearance in my version
Giving HT faster energy regen(Slight but needed)
And reducing feedback cost to 35 (a major buff)
It also Provides a buff to archon shields of 50 (Considering 60-100 but as of yet 50 seems perfect)
This adresses the energy to damage conversion of IT, Fungals, and the shiny new raven below.
It makes HT an even scarier anti-caster and provides for more damage through more frequent storms.
As for reapers + Show Spoiler +Removed their building attack
+1 range
65 Life
1 armor
6x2 (+6 Light) damage from 4x2 (+5 light)
I kept the speed upgrade (Considering making it give cliff jump)
Added a new upgrade for Cluster Mines requires Armory
Lays a Mines like the G-4 Cluster bombs but as a mine.
Deals 45 damage (+10 for light)
Radius 1
With a 1.5 second deployment time.
This (Plus the Hosts changes) makes reapers an ambush commando style unit giving good map control excellent harass options while not a direct combat unit. With the addition of the mines this reaper can play tag with enemies near endlessly throwing mines into the mineral fields or around the base to help with kiting.
Ghosts + Show Spoiler +Damage to 15 from 10
Snipe
65 (+35 Light) damage from 25 (+25 Psionic)
Sight range now at 12
Optics Upgrade for ghost
+2 Sight range
+1 range on snipe
Snipe costs 20 energy
This makes ghosts the anti-caster 1 snipe for HT and 2 for infestor it can also act as a support for siege tanks or spotting incoming enemies in the field acting as a forward unit (as I feel the ghost should be) It would be able to act without army support and do noticeable damage.
Raven + Show Spoiler +Production time reduced to 50 from 60 Durable Materials now raises Raven life to 160 form 140 and give +1 armor Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen significantly neatly doubling it. This (Plus changes below) would make the raven a all-rounder caster able to harass defend and support engagements effectively unlike the currently unused raven this wouldn't be a stylistically choice it would be a strategic choice. Auto-turret + Show Spoiler +2 armor 200 life
Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now speeds up its attack rate
With this it could finally stop a few lings, hold a flank, harass or hell it could provide space control. With this it acts as the Terran IT it lasts is durable (not quite as high dps) But very sustained ability.
Point Defense Drone + Show Spoiler +Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen
This would make it a lasting part of a battlefield. Stalling enemies for that much longer, helping hold flanks with just a few units.
Hunter Seeker Missile + Show Spoiler +Corvid Reactor now increases range and movement speed
Splash radius slightly increased
Damage raised to 125 from 100
This just brings it on par with Storm and fungal. With this microing out less damage is the key, you can minimize not nullify.
With storm you have a certain amount of guaranteed damage it is sometimes low but it is there fungal well ya its fungal...
Banshee, Viking, and Raven. + Show Spoiler +An upgrade for +1 range and +2 per damage upgrade (Banshee and viking requires new(OLD) structure Science facility)
Also Air speed upgrade Banshee speed 2.75 to 2.85, raven speed to 2.6484 from 2.25, and Viking
Viking get 2.75 to 2.85 and can move while changing into assault move + a faster transformation time(Very slight)
But my hope with my map is to make each style more defined and allow for more dynamic play not Banshees are only for harass or this is only viable early-mid or just early (reapers/voidrays)
But the hope is to see more of every unit and see them doing what they do. Roaches need the extra range to be roaches.
With 3 range they would see little to no use late-game.
Why did you make that change? (Not being rude just curious your thought process)
As well with the hydras 18 dps at 0/0 and 25.3 at 3.3 and 7 range? That is a bit much don't you think...(The DPS)
Even in the event that they act as glass cannons if they are behind any kind of meat shield they will eat up units faster then... well anything.
As for infested terrans I like them as they are but I feel auto turret need a buff (see above)
This would make ITs stay as a big damage threat but turrets would become a lasting threat an act as a "free" base defense. I would prefer to see ITs remain in great use and as a great damage conversion for energy. ITs cost 25 and do 5.8 DPS so you can cast 8 for 74.34 DPS. Two Fungal can do more then 180 DPS and snares (Though it lasts 4 seconds where ITs last 30s you can micro away from infested terrans, and Fungals can be chained. Food for thought)
To be clear your roaches wouldn't exist in late game your hydras do a bit to much damage but I get where your coming from and your IT aren't the problem it was always the hydras and fungal growth(Witch should remain the same) I think the answer is a stronger enemy now a weaker roach and in return buff roach late-game. As for hydras, as they are now they would be better as a spell... (ITs anyone) To be a real unit they need to be tough enough to fight with enough range to be a threat (Range is an in-direct DPS buff that promotes micro) The reason I want the speed is so that hydras can kite and respond to enemies while remaining zergy. For the IT and Infestor Make ITs Cost 35 energy give them +1 range and leave them at that.
I would love Feedback on my thoughts on your thoughts
Edit: I have tested all of these singularly and together with small groups of people Just to keep perspective
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On October 26 2012 05:36 AzraelArchontas wrote:I have been doing a similar thing putting my own changes in the editor but my map isn't ready to allow full testing yet (I want all the HOTS units in it first) I am on the NA server or else I would love to play test with you I gave roaches speed with requirement of evo chamber, and added a new buff to lair (Instead of just a early buff this makes it a choice you can make sooner) Roach (Lair Upgrade) 1 armor Slightly faster life regen +15 life This keeps roaches roaches and with a few small buffs to the other races I don't see mass roach as a problem. (The way I see it roaches are strong and efficient in small conflicts and should remain that way) But The other races need good ways to deal with them. My choice is buff siege tanks but reduce deployment time. keep WM as is maybe a 3.5 second deployment. Then give +10 shields to zealots and a minor speed buff (Early roaches will lose out pretty heavy on this) and make stalker damage 13 (+5 light) This would make roach all-ins nearly ineffective and keep roaches a potent threat on the open field. And then I gave Hydralisks (I prefer an initial hydra with more range and a smaller upgrade this again makes the upgrade more of a choice do I need this rather then I have to get this. It also means my hydras are more effective early without insane dps) +1 range (Slight speed buff) Increased life to 90 A range upgrade at hive for +1 and a speed upgrade at lair. This gives you a reason to get out hydralisks early and makes them a real threat on the battle field able to kite roaches and maximize their dps much more quickly. A faster tougher hydra also means that zerg is no longer without an adequate AA and makes a muta player more weary. This makes both units more "robust?" A heavier tankier Roach. A powerful ranged foe of the hydralisk. I also added a lair upgrade for lings "Rending Claws" +2 damage This may seem unnecessary but with the nature of lings now they are almost not considered. This would mean leaving an expansion unguarded would be ridiculous. Surrounds flanks and ling counters would be an even larger consideration helping to break up deathballs and force more scouting. Of coarse I added a lot more like Extending siege tank deployment time but buffing them considerably elsewhere and changing colossus considerably. Here are some of the changes I put in to address the issues of roaches hydras and infestors by changing the other races. Here is just a few of my changes for consideration. + Show Spoiler +Buffed Zealots + Show Spoiler ++10 shields
Slight speed buff
This makes zealots a little harder to micro against for marines/marauders roaches ect. Helps you get them into position faster and get good surrounds or harass with a few zealots. It makes they tougher over all and makes them more of a threat better meat-shields and all that.
Changed Stalkers + Show Spoiler +13 damage (+5 Light)
An upgrade at the dark shrine
Minor Movement speed buff 1 second cloak after blink
Blink timer down to 8
This makes stalkers feel more like a dark shadow warrior then it dose currently. You can really harass with them but it (Very slighty) hurts blink stalker all in with a reduction of 1.44 dps against armored. (This is much more significant then it appears) But it gives stalkers a fast hit and run feel.
Sentry FF + Show Spoiler +Reduced FF range to 7 from 9
Makes it a little harder to use offensively
It is actually a very big difference and you can really feel it in play it makes splitting an army much harder and makes you want to sit back a bit more with your sentries (The other buffs to gateway change this however)
Khaydarin Amulet + Show Spoiler +It makes a reappearance in my version
Giving HT faster energy regen(Slight but needed)
And reducing feedback cost to 35 (a major buff)
It also Provides a buff to archon shields of 50 (Considering 60-100 but as of yet 50 seems perfect)
This adresses the energy to damage conversion of IT, Fungals, and the shiny new raven below.
It makes HT an even scarier anti-caster and provides for more damage through more frequent storms.
As for reapers + Show Spoiler +Removed their building attack
+1 range
65 Life
1 armor
6x2 (+6 Light) damage from 4x2 (+5 light)
I kept the speed upgrade (Considering making it give cliff jump)
Added a new upgrade for Cluster Mines requires Armory
Lays a Mines like the G-4 Cluster bombs but as a mine.
Deals 45 damage (+10 for light)
Radius 1
With a 1.5 second deployment time.
This (Plus the Hosts changes) makes reapers an ambush commando style unit giving good map control excellent harass options while not a direct combat unit. With the addition of the mines this reaper can play tag with enemies near endlessly throwing mines into the mineral fields or around the base to help with kiting.
Ghosts + Show Spoiler +Damage to 15 from 10
Snipe
65 (+35 Light) damage from 25 (+25 Psionic)
Sight range now at 12
Optics Upgrade for ghost
+2 Sight range
+1 range on snipe
Snipe costs 20 energy
This makes ghosts the anti-caster 1 snipe for HT and 2 for infestor it can also act as a support for siege tanks or spotting incoming enemies in the field acting as a forward unit (as I feel the ghost should be) It would be able to act without army support and do noticeable damage.
Raven + Show Spoiler +Production time reduced to 50 from 60 Durable Materials now raises Raven life to 160 form 140 and give +1 armor Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen significantly neatly doubling it. This (Plus changes below) would make the raven a all-rounder caster able to harass defend and support engagements effectively unlike the currently unused raven this wouldn't be a stylistically choice it would be a strategic choice. Auto-turret + Show Spoiler +2 armor 200 life
Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now speeds up its attack rate
With this it could finally stop a few lings, hold a flank, harass or hell it could provide space control. With this it acts as the Terran IT it lasts is durable (not quite as high dps) But very sustained ability.
Point Defense Drone + Show Spoiler +Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen
This would make it a lasting part of a battlefield. Stalling enemies for that much longer, helping hold flanks with just a few units.
Hunter Seeker Missile + Show Spoiler +Corvid Reactor now increases range and movement speed
Splash radius slightly increased
Damage raised to 125 from 100
This just brings it on par with Storm and fungal. With this microing out less damage is the key, you can minimize not nullify.
With storm you have a certain amount of guaranteed damage it is sometimes low but it is there fungal well ya its fungal...
Banshee, Viking, and Raven. + Show Spoiler +An upgrade for +1 range and +2 per damage upgrade (Banshee and viking requires new(OLD) structure Science facility)
Also Air speed upgrade Banshee speed 2.75 to 2.85, raven speed to 2.6484 from 2.25, and Viking
Viking get 2.75 to 2.85 and can move while changing into assault move + a faster transformation time(Very slight)
But my hope with my map is to make each style more defined and allow for more dynamic play not Banshees are only for harass or this is only viable early-mid or just early (reapers/voidrays) But the hope is to see more of every unit and see them doing what they do. Roaches need the extra range to be roaches. With 3 range they would see little to no use late-game. Why did you make that change? (Not being rude just curious your thought process) As well with the hydras 18 dps at 0/0 and 25.3 at 3.3 and 7 range? That is a bit much don't you think...(The DPS) Even in the event that they act as glass cannons if they are behind any kind of meat shield they will eat up units faster then... well anything. As for infested terrans I like them as they are but I feel auto turret need a buff (see above) This would make ITs stay as a big damage threat but turrets would become a lasting threat an act as a "free" base defense. I would prefer to see ITs remain in great use and as a great damage conversion for energy. ITs cost 25 and do 5.8 DPS so you can cast 8 for 74.34 DPS. Two Fungal can do more then 180 DPS and snares (Though it lasts 4 seconds where ITs last 30s you can micro away from infested terrans, and Fungals can be chained. Food for thought) To be clear your roaches wouldn't exist in late game your hydras do a bit to much damage but I get where your coming from and your IT aren't the problem it was always the hydras and fungal growth(Witch should remain the same) I think the answer is a stronger enemy now a weaker roach and in return buff roach late-game. As for hydras, as they are now they would be better as a spell... (ITs anyone) To be a real unit they need to be tough enough to fight with enough range to be a threat (Range is an in-direct DPS buff that promotes micro) The reason I want the speed is so that hydras can kite and respond to enemies while remaining zergy. For the IT and Infestor Make ITs Cost 35 energy give them +1 range and leave them at that. I would love Feedback on my thoughts on your thoughts Edit: I have tested all of these singularly and together with small groups of people Just to keep perspective
Quite a lot to reply to
So first of, I think you are going into this from a completly different angle but with the same thought behind it. However, the more you change, the more you have to test and the less realistic it is that blizzard will catch onto it. That's why I prefer to change the roach the hydra and the infestor, instead of changing all their enemies, even though your take on it is just as viable as mine. But on top of that, I'm also having less work chainging only a few things.
Don't get me wrong, I have quite a lot more suggestions for changes and stuff like that, but I want to take it slow, get some results and just try to get a little bit of attention from blizzards side with this project.
So here come my thoughts about your thoughts on my thoughts (this is quite long, hence the spoilers)
Roach
+ Show Spoiler +I think the roach is straight up too good in cost to cost comparisons. I don't think that 12min roach max builds should be of any good for the zerg, yet they exist because roaches have just enough range and mobility to get them into the combat and their damage and HP are quite in a very good spot to make them trade well with most units if you get even cost combats. Long story short, I think that there are two possible ways to go: 1) make roaches "incomplete" on their own - so nerf their damage in a way that they need other units to do the damage from behind 2) make roaches mass badly through making it hard/impossible to get all of them shooting I'm going with #2 on this, because I think that changing the damage in a way that it has an impact is the harder to calculate risk, as all the "counter relations" might change, even if you get the roaches in combat. Therefore, less range equals less shooting roaches equals less roaches are optimal. But this will cause some trouble as well early on with units that can kite roaches too well now, therefore the earlier speed. On top of that, I'm also making the roach slightly less mobile in the midgame, emphasizing slightly on the wanted effect It's true that lategame roaches are even worse now. I'd love to change the burrow dynamic a bit more for that, so that they can excel on harassing and so that they can be burrow microed in combat to tank longer for your glasscanons behind them. Also I want to note, from my testing until now, roaches still played a role because the moment you go hydralisks, you want some roaches in front of your hydras. Having 10roaches in the lategame is better than having 10more hydras in a straight up combat, even with the changed balancing!
Hydralisk
+ Show Spoiler +
First of, your dps calculations on them are wrong.
They are 15dps on 0-0 in they mod, and go to 21dps on 3-0.
If it is +3attack vs +3armor, they are at 18dps in my mod - (21 for stimmed marines in all even upgrade scenarios, to give a comparison)
But yes, from testing it this is quite a lot, but for now, I really want to stick with it to get a better feeling for their powerlevel.
It's not like they feel completly overpowered, but the opponent must adapt to hydralisk play!
Furthermore I want to say, that they are not just better - but a ton more fun to play with! They can retreat, the changed attack speed, range and speed upgrade gives them quite a bit of microability and from the one ZvZ (Master vs Master) I played, I have to say roach+mass hydra+some infestors feels just sooo much more right than mass roach into mass infestor with some roach/hydra added.
Infestor, Infested Terran
+ Show Spoiler +
Yes, this change hurts me as well. I love how you can harass with Infestors and I would actually prefer to not change that mechanic, but the IT is the core of the problem in my opinion.
Fungal has it's limit. Don't get me wrong, mass fungal is brutal and I think I will change Fungal to 80% slow in the next patch for the map. But people really underestimate what it means if only 10 Infested Terrans more are in a combat. That's like 10stimmed marines!
And that's the big problem. Infestors can create a marineball that does not cost you supply. That does not need to close in, because it hatches in the position you want it to be. Opponents have to counter Infestors with antiground splash, even though they are in desperate need for anticaster and usually antiair or antiultra units, which makes Infestors so hard to battle, as you cannot just battle the infestor, you have to battle the marine as well. And most of all, mass infestor is only possible through mass IT spam. If it wasn't for ITs, people would have to stop at like 8-10infestors, as there is no use in having too much energy. Nerfing ITs is a first step to get rid of the madness that is mass spellcaster army.
On top of that, ITs overlap with hydralisks. I want hydralisks to be the "usual" choice and ITs to be the harass/panic choice.
On a final note. I would love to make ITs simply cost 35energy like you propose. But blizzard seems to only make 25energy/resource steps for everything that is not channeled and I want to stick to the implicit defined rules blizzard makes.
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One more change implemented:
Fungal growth now slows units by 60% instead of rooting.
As always, trying before reaching conclusion is what I hope for
|
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 07:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:36 AzraelArchontas wrote:I have been doing a similar thing putting my own changes in the editor but my map isn't ready to allow full testing yet (I want all the HOTS units in it first) I am on the NA server or else I would love to play test with you I gave roaches speed with requirement of evo chamber, and added a new buff to lair (Instead of just a early buff this makes it a choice you can make sooner) Roach (Lair Upgrade) 1 armor Slightly faster life regen +15 life This keeps roaches roaches and with a few small buffs to the other races I don't see mass roach as a problem. (The way I see it roaches are strong and efficient in small conflicts and should remain that way) But The other races need good ways to deal with them. My choice is buff siege tanks but reduce deployment time. keep WM as is maybe a 3.5 second deployment. Then give +10 shields to zealots and a minor speed buff (Early roaches will lose out pretty heavy on this) and make stalker damage 13 (+5 light) This would make roach all-ins nearly ineffective and keep roaches a potent threat on the open field. And then I gave Hydralisks (I prefer an initial hydra with more range and a smaller upgrade this again makes the upgrade more of a choice do I need this rather then I have to get this. It also means my hydras are more effective early without insane dps) +1 range (Slight speed buff) Increased life to 90 A range upgrade at hive for +1 and a speed upgrade at lair. This gives you a reason to get out hydralisks early and makes them a real threat on the battle field able to kite roaches and maximize their dps much more quickly. A faster tougher hydra also means that zerg is no longer without an adequate AA and makes a muta player more weary. This makes both units more "robust?" A heavier tankier Roach. A powerful ranged foe of the hydralisk. I also added a lair upgrade for lings "Rending Claws" +2 damage This may seem unnecessary but with the nature of lings now they are almost not considered. This would mean leaving an expansion unguarded would be ridiculous. Surrounds flanks and ling counters would be an even larger consideration helping to break up deathballs and force more scouting. Of coarse I added a lot more like Extending siege tank deployment time but buffing them considerably elsewhere and changing colossus considerably. Here are some of the changes I put in to address the issues of roaches hydras and infestors by changing the other races. Here is just a few of my changes for consideration. + Show Spoiler +Buffed Zealots + Show Spoiler ++10 shields
Slight speed buff
This makes zealots a little harder to micro against for marines/marauders roaches ect. Helps you get them into position faster and get good surrounds or harass with a few zealots. It makes they tougher over all and makes them more of a threat better meat-shields and all that.
Changed Stalkers + Show Spoiler +13 damage (+5 Light)
An upgrade at the dark shrine
Minor Movement speed buff 1 second cloak after blink
Blink timer down to 8
This makes stalkers feel more like a dark shadow warrior then it dose currently. You can really harass with them but it (Very slighty) hurts blink stalker all in with a reduction of 1.44 dps against armored. (This is much more significant then it appears) But it gives stalkers a fast hit and run feel.
Sentry FF + Show Spoiler +Reduced FF range to 7 from 9
Makes it a little harder to use offensively
It is actually a very big difference and you can really feel it in play it makes splitting an army much harder and makes you want to sit back a bit more with your sentries (The other buffs to gateway change this however)
Khaydarin Amulet + Show Spoiler +It makes a reappearance in my version
Giving HT faster energy regen(Slight but needed)
And reducing feedback cost to 35 (a major buff)
It also Provides a buff to archon shields of 50 (Considering 60-100 but as of yet 50 seems perfect)
This adresses the energy to damage conversion of IT, Fungals, and the shiny new raven below.
It makes HT an even scarier anti-caster and provides for more damage through more frequent storms.
As for reapers + Show Spoiler +Removed their building attack
+1 range
65 Life
1 armor
6x2 (+6 Light) damage from 4x2 (+5 light)
I kept the speed upgrade (Considering making it give cliff jump)
Added a new upgrade for Cluster Mines requires Armory
Lays a Mines like the G-4 Cluster bombs but as a mine.
Deals 45 damage (+10 for light)
Radius 1
With a 1.5 second deployment time.
This (Plus the Hosts changes) makes reapers an ambush commando style unit giving good map control excellent harass options while not a direct combat unit. With the addition of the mines this reaper can play tag with enemies near endlessly throwing mines into the mineral fields or around the base to help with kiting.
Ghosts + Show Spoiler +Damage to 15 from 10
Snipe
65 (+35 Light) damage from 25 (+25 Psionic)
Sight range now at 12
Optics Upgrade for ghost
+2 Sight range
+1 range on snipe
Snipe costs 20 energy
This makes ghosts the anti-caster 1 snipe for HT and 2 for infestor it can also act as a support for siege tanks or spotting incoming enemies in the field acting as a forward unit (as I feel the ghost should be) It would be able to act without army support and do noticeable damage.
Raven + Show Spoiler +Production time reduced to 50 from 60 Durable Materials now raises Raven life to 160 form 140 and give +1 armor Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen significantly neatly doubling it. This (Plus changes below) would make the raven a all-rounder caster able to harass defend and support engagements effectively unlike the currently unused raven this wouldn't be a stylistically choice it would be a strategic choice. Auto-turret + Show Spoiler +2 armor 200 life
Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now speeds up its attack rate
With this it could finally stop a few lings, hold a flank, harass or hell it could provide space control. With this it acts as the Terran IT it lasts is durable (not quite as high dps) But very sustained ability.
Point Defense Drone + Show Spoiler +Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen
This would make it a lasting part of a battlefield. Stalling enemies for that much longer, helping hold flanks with just a few units.
Hunter Seeker Missile + Show Spoiler +Corvid Reactor now increases range and movement speed
Splash radius slightly increased
Damage raised to 125 from 100
This just brings it on par with Storm and fungal. With this microing out less damage is the key, you can minimize not nullify.
With storm you have a certain amount of guaranteed damage it is sometimes low but it is there fungal well ya its fungal...
Banshee, Viking, and Raven. + Show Spoiler +An upgrade for +1 range and +2 per damage upgrade (Banshee and viking requires new(OLD) structure Science facility)
Also Air speed upgrade Banshee speed 2.75 to 2.85, raven speed to 2.6484 from 2.25, and Viking
Viking get 2.75 to 2.85 and can move while changing into assault move + a faster transformation time(Very slight)
But my hope with my map is to make each style more defined and allow for more dynamic play not Banshees are only for harass or this is only viable early-mid or just early (reapers/voidrays) But the hope is to see more of every unit and see them doing what they do. Roaches need the extra range to be roaches. With 3 range they would see little to no use late-game. Why did you make that change? (Not being rude just curious your thought process) As well with the hydras 18 dps at 0/0 and 25.3 at 3.3 and 7 range? That is a bit much don't you think...(The DPS) Even in the event that they act as glass cannons if they are behind any kind of meat shield they will eat up units faster then... well anything. As for infested terrans I like them as they are but I feel auto turret need a buff (see above) This would make ITs stay as a big damage threat but turrets would become a lasting threat an act as a "free" base defense. I would prefer to see ITs remain in great use and as a great damage conversion for energy. ITs cost 25 and do 5.8 DPS so you can cast 8 for 74.34 DPS. Two Fungal can do more then 180 DPS and snares (Though it lasts 4 seconds where ITs last 30s you can micro away from infested terrans, and Fungals can be chained. Food for thought) To be clear your roaches wouldn't exist in late game your hydras do a bit to much damage but I get where your coming from and your IT aren't the problem it was always the hydras and fungal growth(Witch should remain the same) I think the answer is a stronger enemy now a weaker roach and in return buff roach late-game. As for hydras, as they are now they would be better as a spell... (ITs anyone) To be a real unit they need to be tough enough to fight with enough range to be a threat (Range is an in-direct DPS buff that promotes micro) The reason I want the speed is so that hydras can kite and respond to enemies while remaining zergy. For the IT and Infestor Make ITs Cost 35 energy give them +1 range and leave them at that. I would love Feedback on my thoughts on your thoughts Edit: I have tested all of these singularly and together with small groups of people Just to keep perspective Quite a lot to reply to So first of, I think you are going into this from a completly different angle but with the same thought behind it. However, the more you change, the more you have to test and the less realistic it is that blizzard will catch onto it. That's why I prefer to change the roach the hydra and the infestor, instead of changing all their enemies, even though your take on it is just as viable as mine. But on top of that, I'm also having less work chainging only a few things. Don't get me wrong, I have quite a lot more suggestions for changes and stuff like that, but I want to take it slow, get some results and just try to get a little bit of attention from blizzards side with this project. So here come my thoughts about your thoughts on my thoughts (this is quite long, hence the spoilers) Roach+ Show Spoiler +I think the roach is straight up too good in cost to cost comparisons. I don't think that 12min roach max builds should be of any good for the zerg, yet they exist because roaches have just enough range and mobility to get them into the combat and their damage and HP are quite in a very good spot to make them trade well with most units if you get even cost combats. Long story short, I think that there are two possible ways to go: 1) make roaches "incomplete" on their own - so nerf their damage in a way that they need other units to do the damage from behind 2) make roaches mass badly through making it hard/impossible to get all of them shooting I'm going with #2 on this, because I think that changing the damage in a way that it has an impact is the harder to calculate risk, as all the "counter relations" might change, even if you get the roaches in combat. Therefore, less range equals less shooting roaches equals less roaches are optimal. But this will cause some trouble as well early on with units that can kite roaches too well now, therefore the earlier speed. On top of that, I'm also making the roach slightly less mobile in the midgame, emphasizing slightly on the wanted effect It's true that lategame roaches are even worse now. I'd love to change the burrow dynamic a bit more for that, so that they can excel on harassing and so that they can be burrow microed in combat to tank longer for your glasscanons behind them. Also I want to note, from my testing until now, roaches still played a role because the moment you go hydralisks, you want some roaches in front of your hydras. Having 10roaches in the lategame is better than having 10more hydras in a straight up combat, even with the changed balancing!
First of, your dps calculations on them are wrong.
They are 15dps on 0-0 in they mod, and go to 21dps on 3-0.
If it is +3attack vs +3armor, they are at 18dps in my mod - (21 for stimmed marines in all even upgrade scenarios, to give a comparison)
But yes, from testing it this is quite a lot, but for now, I really want to stick with it to get a better feeling for their powerlevel.
It's not like they feel completly overpowered, but the opponent must adapt to hydralisk play!
Furthermore I want to say, that they are not just better - but a ton more fun to play with! They can retreat, the changed attack speed, range and speed upgrade gives them quite a bit of microability and from the one ZvZ (Master vs Master) I played, I have to say roach+mass hydra+some infestors feels just sooo much more right than mass roach into mass infestor with some roach/hydra added.
Yes, this change hurts me as well. I love how you can harass with Infestors and I would actually prefer to not change that mechanic, but the IT is the core of the problem in my opinion.
Fungal has it's limit. Don't get me wrong, mass fungal is brutal and I think I will change Fungal to 80% slow in the next patch for the map. But people really underestimate what it means if only 10 Infested Terrans more are in a combat. That's like 10stimmed marines!
And that's the big problem. Infestors can create a marineball that does not cost you supply. That does not need to close in, because it hatches in the position you want it to be. Opponents have to counter Infestors with antiground splash, even though they are in desperate need for anticaster and usually antiair or antiultra units, which makes Infestors so hard to battle, as you cannot just battle the infestor, you have to battle the marine as well. And most of all, mass infestor is only possible through mass IT spam. If it wasn't for ITs, people would have to stop at like 8-10infestors, as there is no use in having too much energy. Nerfing ITs is a first step to get rid of the madness that is mass spellcaster army.
On top of that, ITs overlap with hydralisks. I want hydralisks to be the "usual" choice and ITs to be the harass/panic choice.
On a final note. I would love to make ITs simply cost 35energy like you propose. But blizzard seems to only make 25energy/resource steps for everything that is not channeled and I want to stick to the implicit defined rules blizzard makes.
Thanks for the reply I know it was long :3
Roaches
+ Show Spoiler +I understand your point on roaches but nerfing them into being useless on their own seems the wrong direction.
Along your thought lines I think I would prefer
Provide speed at evo (For people comiting to roach aggresion)
Increase Roach cost to 100/25
Reduce life to 130-135 (this is to make roaches a little less buff early)
With my lair buff giving another +10-15 life
That should weaken roach maxes without the -1 range and let roaches have a stronger late-game
This is a few more changes but you have to remember range is a big stat to alter and they raised it for a reason roaches without range can't break a wall-in, and the range being lowered would also destroy roach dps in mass making it near in-effective.
Hydra
+ Show Spoiler + Sorry I miss read the damage for hydra's but even then.
First I want to say I am not against a damage increase but I would prefer a test of just range and speed before damage changes. That's about all beyond what I said before.
Infestor
+ Show Spoiler +As for IT I would like to see if you must alter the output for IT (Witch I am not against I just would prefer the energy change but I understand your point on the energy costs scaling by 25) Consider altering lifespan spawn speed ect before their damage output, But if you still want to alter damage try a smaller increment they are not a major problem.
On the front of Fungal Growth
I have messed with this spell up and down
The place I have gotten to is around 85-95% slow.
This might not seem like much but just a little movement goes a long way (but I don't see them Changing this for a while)
I tried to keep my changes and post short and simple this time
And Again Feedback is appreciated!
|
On October 26 2012 08:21 AzraelArchontas wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2012 07:10 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 05:36 AzraelArchontas wrote:I have been doing a similar thing putting my own changes in the editor but my map isn't ready to allow full testing yet (I want all the HOTS units in it first) I am on the NA server or else I would love to play test with you I gave roaches speed with requirement of evo chamber, and added a new buff to lair (Instead of just a early buff this makes it a choice you can make sooner) Roach (Lair Upgrade) 1 armor Slightly faster life regen +15 life This keeps roaches roaches and with a few small buffs to the other races I don't see mass roach as a problem. (The way I see it roaches are strong and efficient in small conflicts and should remain that way) But The other races need good ways to deal with them. My choice is buff siege tanks but reduce deployment time. keep WM as is maybe a 3.5 second deployment. Then give +10 shields to zealots and a minor speed buff (Early roaches will lose out pretty heavy on this) and make stalker damage 13 (+5 light) This would make roach all-ins nearly ineffective and keep roaches a potent threat on the open field. And then I gave Hydralisks (I prefer an initial hydra with more range and a smaller upgrade this again makes the upgrade more of a choice do I need this rather then I have to get this. It also means my hydras are more effective early without insane dps) +1 range (Slight speed buff) Increased life to 90 A range upgrade at hive for +1 and a speed upgrade at lair. This gives you a reason to get out hydralisks early and makes them a real threat on the battle field able to kite roaches and maximize their dps much more quickly. A faster tougher hydra also means that zerg is no longer without an adequate AA and makes a muta player more weary. This makes both units more "robust?" A heavier tankier Roach. A powerful ranged foe of the hydralisk. I also added a lair upgrade for lings "Rending Claws" +2 damage This may seem unnecessary but with the nature of lings now they are almost not considered. This would mean leaving an expansion unguarded would be ridiculous. Surrounds flanks and ling counters would be an even larger consideration helping to break up deathballs and force more scouting. Of coarse I added a lot more like Extending siege tank deployment time but buffing them considerably elsewhere and changing colossus considerably. Here are some of the changes I put in to address the issues of roaches hydras and infestors by changing the other races. Here is just a few of my changes for consideration. + Show Spoiler +Buffed Zealots + Show Spoiler ++10 shields
Slight speed buff
This makes zealots a little harder to micro against for marines/marauders roaches ect. Helps you get them into position faster and get good surrounds or harass with a few zealots. It makes they tougher over all and makes them more of a threat better meat-shields and all that.
Changed Stalkers + Show Spoiler +13 damage (+5 Light)
An upgrade at the dark shrine
Minor Movement speed buff 1 second cloak after blink
Blink timer down to 8
This makes stalkers feel more like a dark shadow warrior then it dose currently. You can really harass with them but it (Very slighty) hurts blink stalker all in with a reduction of 1.44 dps against armored. (This is much more significant then it appears) But it gives stalkers a fast hit and run feel.
Sentry FF + Show Spoiler +Reduced FF range to 7 from 9
Makes it a little harder to use offensively
It is actually a very big difference and you can really feel it in play it makes splitting an army much harder and makes you want to sit back a bit more with your sentries (The other buffs to gateway change this however)
Khaydarin Amulet + Show Spoiler +It makes a reappearance in my version
Giving HT faster energy regen(Slight but needed)
And reducing feedback cost to 35 (a major buff)
It also Provides a buff to archon shields of 50 (Considering 60-100 but as of yet 50 seems perfect)
This adresses the energy to damage conversion of IT, Fungals, and the shiny new raven below.
It makes HT an even scarier anti-caster and provides for more damage through more frequent storms.
As for reapers + Show Spoiler +Removed their building attack
+1 range
65 Life
1 armor
6x2 (+6 Light) damage from 4x2 (+5 light)
I kept the speed upgrade (Considering making it give cliff jump)
Added a new upgrade for Cluster Mines requires Armory
Lays a Mines like the G-4 Cluster bombs but as a mine.
Deals 45 damage (+10 for light)
Radius 1
With a 1.5 second deployment time.
This (Plus the Hosts changes) makes reapers an ambush commando style unit giving good map control excellent harass options while not a direct combat unit. With the addition of the mines this reaper can play tag with enemies near endlessly throwing mines into the mineral fields or around the base to help with kiting.
Ghosts + Show Spoiler +Damage to 15 from 10
Snipe
65 (+35 Light) damage from 25 (+25 Psionic)
Sight range now at 12
Optics Upgrade for ghost
+2 Sight range
+1 range on snipe
Snipe costs 20 energy
This makes ghosts the anti-caster 1 snipe for HT and 2 for infestor it can also act as a support for siege tanks or spotting incoming enemies in the field acting as a forward unit (as I feel the ghost should be) It would be able to act without army support and do noticeable damage.
Raven + Show Spoiler +Production time reduced to 50 from 60 Durable Materials now raises Raven life to 160 form 140 and give +1 armor Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen significantly neatly doubling it. This (Plus changes below) would make the raven a all-rounder caster able to harass defend and support engagements effectively unlike the currently unused raven this wouldn't be a stylistically choice it would be a strategic choice. Auto-turret + Show Spoiler +2 armor 200 life
Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now speeds up its attack rate
With this it could finally stop a few lings, hold a flank, harass or hell it could provide space control. With this it acts as the Terran IT it lasts is durable (not quite as high dps) But very sustained ability.
Point Defense Drone + Show Spoiler +Durable materials now gives +50 life
Corvid Reactor now increases energy regen
This would make it a lasting part of a battlefield. Stalling enemies for that much longer, helping hold flanks with just a few units.
Hunter Seeker Missile + Show Spoiler +Corvid Reactor now increases range and movement speed
Splash radius slightly increased
Damage raised to 125 from 100
This just brings it on par with Storm and fungal. With this microing out less damage is the key, you can minimize not nullify.
With storm you have a certain amount of guaranteed damage it is sometimes low but it is there fungal well ya its fungal...
Banshee, Viking, and Raven. + Show Spoiler +An upgrade for +1 range and +2 per damage upgrade (Banshee and viking requires new(OLD) structure Science facility)
Also Air speed upgrade Banshee speed 2.75 to 2.85, raven speed to 2.6484 from 2.25, and Viking
Viking get 2.75 to 2.85 and can move while changing into assault move + a faster transformation time(Very slight)
But my hope with my map is to make each style more defined and allow for more dynamic play not Banshees are only for harass or this is only viable early-mid or just early (reapers/voidrays) But the hope is to see more of every unit and see them doing what they do. Roaches need the extra range to be roaches. With 3 range they would see little to no use late-game. Why did you make that change? (Not being rude just curious your thought process) As well with the hydras 18 dps at 0/0 and 25.3 at 3.3 and 7 range? That is a bit much don't you think...(The DPS) Even in the event that they act as glass cannons if they are behind any kind of meat shield they will eat up units faster then... well anything. As for infested terrans I like them as they are but I feel auto turret need a buff (see above) This would make ITs stay as a big damage threat but turrets would become a lasting threat an act as a "free" base defense. I would prefer to see ITs remain in great use and as a great damage conversion for energy. ITs cost 25 and do 5.8 DPS so you can cast 8 for 74.34 DPS. Two Fungal can do more then 180 DPS and snares (Though it lasts 4 seconds where ITs last 30s you can micro away from infested terrans, and Fungals can be chained. Food for thought) To be clear your roaches wouldn't exist in late game your hydras do a bit to much damage but I get where your coming from and your IT aren't the problem it was always the hydras and fungal growth(Witch should remain the same) I think the answer is a stronger enemy now a weaker roach and in return buff roach late-game. As for hydras, as they are now they would be better as a spell... (ITs anyone) To be a real unit they need to be tough enough to fight with enough range to be a threat (Range is an in-direct DPS buff that promotes micro) The reason I want the speed is so that hydras can kite and respond to enemies while remaining zergy. For the IT and Infestor Make ITs Cost 35 energy give them +1 range and leave them at that. I would love Feedback on my thoughts on your thoughts Edit: I have tested all of these singularly and together with small groups of people Just to keep perspective Quite a lot to reply to So first of, I think you are going into this from a completly different angle but with the same thought behind it. However, the more you change, the more you have to test and the less realistic it is that blizzard will catch onto it. That's why I prefer to change the roach the hydra and the infestor, instead of changing all their enemies, even though your take on it is just as viable as mine. But on top of that, I'm also having less work chainging only a few things. Don't get me wrong, I have quite a lot more suggestions for changes and stuff like that, but I want to take it slow, get some results and just try to get a little bit of attention from blizzards side with this project. So here come my thoughts about your thoughts on my thoughts (this is quite long, hence the spoilers) Roach+ Show Spoiler +I think the roach is straight up too good in cost to cost comparisons. I don't think that 12min roach max builds should be of any good for the zerg, yet they exist because roaches have just enough range and mobility to get them into the combat and their damage and HP are quite in a very good spot to make them trade well with most units if you get even cost combats. Long story short, I think that there are two possible ways to go: 1) make roaches "incomplete" on their own - so nerf their damage in a way that they need other units to do the damage from behind 2) make roaches mass badly through making it hard/impossible to get all of them shooting I'm going with #2 on this, because I think that changing the damage in a way that it has an impact is the harder to calculate risk, as all the "counter relations" might change, even if you get the roaches in combat. Therefore, less range equals less shooting roaches equals less roaches are optimal. But this will cause some trouble as well early on with units that can kite roaches too well now, therefore the earlier speed. On top of that, I'm also making the roach slightly less mobile in the midgame, emphasizing slightly on the wanted effect It's true that lategame roaches are even worse now. I'd love to change the burrow dynamic a bit more for that, so that they can excel on harassing and so that they can be burrow microed in combat to tank longer for your glasscanons behind them. Also I want to note, from my testing until now, roaches still played a role because the moment you go hydralisks, you want some roaches in front of your hydras. Having 10roaches in the lategame is better than having 10more hydras in a straight up combat, even with the changed balancing!
First of, your dps calculations on them are wrong.
They are 15dps on 0-0 in they mod, and go to 21dps on 3-0.
If it is +3attack vs +3armor, they are at 18dps in my mod - (21 for stimmed marines in all even upgrade scenarios, to give a comparison)
But yes, from testing it this is quite a lot, but for now, I really want to stick with it to get a better feeling for their powerlevel.
It's not like they feel completly overpowered, but the opponent must adapt to hydralisk play!
Furthermore I want to say, that they are not just better - but a ton more fun to play with! They can retreat, the changed attack speed, range and speed upgrade gives them quite a bit of microability and from the one ZvZ (Master vs Master) I played, I have to say roach+mass hydra+some infestors feels just sooo much more right than mass roach into mass infestor with some roach/hydra added.
Yes, this change hurts me as well. I love how you can harass with Infestors and I would actually prefer to not change that mechanic, but the IT is the core of the problem in my opinion.
Fungal has it's limit. Don't get me wrong, mass fungal is brutal and I think I will change Fungal to 80% slow in the next patch for the map. But people really underestimate what it means if only 10 Infested Terrans more are in a combat. That's like 10stimmed marines!
And that's the big problem. Infestors can create a marineball that does not cost you supply. That does not need to close in, because it hatches in the position you want it to be. Opponents have to counter Infestors with antiground splash, even though they are in desperate need for anticaster and usually antiair or antiultra units, which makes Infestors so hard to battle, as you cannot just battle the infestor, you have to battle the marine as well. And most of all, mass infestor is only possible through mass IT spam. If it wasn't for ITs, people would have to stop at like 8-10infestors, as there is no use in having too much energy. Nerfing ITs is a first step to get rid of the madness that is mass spellcaster army.
On top of that, ITs overlap with hydralisks. I want hydralisks to be the "usual" choice and ITs to be the harass/panic choice.
On a final note. I would love to make ITs simply cost 35energy like you propose. But blizzard seems to only make 25energy/resource steps for everything that is not channeled and I want to stick to the implicit defined rules blizzard makes.
Thanks for the reply I know it was long :3 Roaches + Show Spoiler +I understand your point on roaches but nerfing them into being useless on their own seems the wrong direction.
Along your thought lines I think I would prefer
Provide speed at evo (For people comiting to roach aggresion)
Increase Roach cost to 100/25
Reduce life to 130-135 (this is to make roaches a little less buff early)
With my lair buff giving another +10-15 life
That should weaken roach maxes without the -1 range and let roaches have a stronger late-game
This is a few more changes but you have to remember range is a big stat to alter and they raised it for a reason roaches without range can't break a wall-in, and the range being lowered would also destroy roach dps in mass making it near in-effective.
Hydra + Show Spoiler + Sorry I miss read the damage for hydra's but even then.
First I want to say I am not against a damage increase but I would prefer a test of just range and speed before damage changes. That's about all beyond what I said before.
Infestor + Show Spoiler +As for IT I would like to see if you must alter the output for IT (Witch I am not against I just would prefer the energy change but I understand your point on the energy costs scaling by 25) Consider altering lifespan spawn speed ect before their damage output, But if you still want to alter damage try a smaller increment they are not a major problem.
On the front of Fungal Growth
I have messed with this spell up and down
The place I have gotten to is around 85-95% slow.
This might not seem like much but just a little movement goes a long way (but I don't see them Changing this for a while)
I tried to keep my changes and post short and simple this time And Again Feedback is appreciated!
Long posts are appreciated. They show that people put effort into their thoughts
Roach
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My original idea goes beyond what I changed. I would make roaches cost 100/50, the Roach Warren 25/0 (HP of the Warren decreased) - so that you would always build the warren like a cybercore and instead of more queens you would go for 1-2 roaches because you already have the tech.
Then on lair add an upgrade that reduces roach cost to 75/25.
Then on hive add an upgrad that reduces roach supply cost to 1 or 1.5
The reason why I don't experiment with something along those lines, is that it's not simple. It really, really changes the game hugely, starting at minute 5 and therefore it is not likely to be considered as "tweaking" and discarded by most people (including blizzard if they ever were to read/comment those ideas) upon reading.
Also upon testing, I must say that those roaches do quite a nice job still. You just need to complement them earlier to get similar effects in huge combats (like the 200/200 build). For example, I think that it is quite possible to do some strong pushes with roach/speedhydra between 13-15minutes on my map.
Also again for the 3range. The only thing that really worries me is forcefields. 20roaches are still quite a good force and you get 100/100 refund for not having to research that speed upgrade - money that you can invest into something to complement those roaches earlier.
Hydralisk
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Yeah, I considered that. But to be honest, they feel like a ton of fun right now, so and most of the effects kick in in the lategame. I think it creates a nice dynamic, if you are not forced to switch out of ranged units in the lategame, but instead go hydra and play a very zergish style of relentless roach/hydra attacks and drops etc.
Infestor
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Yeah, hatch time on IT would be the other value that could be changed for a similar effect (lifetime probably not. IT spam is usually being done when retreating is not an option). However, with the implemented changes, I'm rather thinking about lowering the Infestor costs to 100/125. Their main problem is supplyefficiency, and I have tuned that down together with their costefficiency. Might need some additional tuning back on the costs (while keeping the supply the same). But that's not urgent right now.
About Fungal. I have tried it in different variations. I think 50% slow is around the least it should have to get a meaningful impact. I'm right now going with 60%, mainly to encourage noninfestor play. Really make the few testers try those hydras in all matchups.
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I don't see how the hydralisk buff compensates for the infestor nerf- hydralisks are too fragile and expensive to be a staple unit in ZvP and ZvT (especially for their position in the tech tree), and their DPS is still a shadow of Fungal Growth's. All three matchups rely heavily on fungal growth out of necessity, not out of a stylistic choice, and Hydralisks have proven too fragile and expensive despite their high DPS.
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I love all this constructive dialog!
I guess let me get started with roaches!
I feel that roaches should be a choice not like cybernetics core the zerg dynamic is based on linear progression towards Hive from lair. Even if it isn't a requirement making it a staple or a must would stagnate play.
+ Show Spoiler +Imo I prefer the idea of a mobile high damage ling hydra to roach hydra and would prefer the game clearly reflect this choice. Roach warren for the cost of 25/0 would be so cheap that it would have to have considerably lower health to match making it easy to snipe and a problem for the zergs who chose roach aggression (Its life would have to be that of a unit or walls would be over common and vipers would have a near-free feeding frenzy). I agree on the front of an upgrade to lower roach supply but I feel this would be to dramatic no matter how you implement it(30 extra roaches that's all I have to say). On the front of FF it would nullify your roaches completely and make colossus that much more effective against roaches.
I would like roaches to become more versatile while adjusting them to be moderately less efficient early without losing that trait throughout the game
Hydralisks
+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how the hydralisk buff compensates for the infestor nerf- hydralisks are too fragile and expensive to be a staple unit in ZvP and ZvT (especially for their position in the tech tree), and their DPS is still a shadow of Fungal Growth's. All three matchups rely heavily on fungal growth out of necessity, not out of a stylistic choice, and Hydralisks have proven too fragile and expensive despite their high DPS. I would agree with you that is why I gave Hydralisks 90 life a slight speed buff +1 range buff This makes them more stable and gives them an in-direct damage buff. I wanted hydralisks to be an army choice that didn't need roaches and roaches to be a choice without hydralisks. My main fear is with the range nerf and the damage buff with no health it forces you into roach hydra a little to much (If you want one you need the other) Because of the roaches decreased damage and the hydras need for a good meatshield. (Of coarse other options are viable but I think probably not as effective) This also forces hydralisks into a Damage/Support? role where is is there to do as much damage as it can before it dies(This saddens me) Unitl your late-game of coarse where they become the biggest monsters on the street with high DPS range and speed(This is where I don't mind the less life)
Infestor
+ Show Spoiler +The cost change is interesting but the fungal needs at least 75% slow to be effective even with the altered cost. I find it necessary to have a powerful effect on fungal and small changes to IT since they are so vital. My preference is to focus on options(hydras or IT) Options give similar results in once situation for various trade-offs and force decisions tactics and strategies to form around them.
My hope is to force intuitive design with complex repercussions. (Easy to learn, Hard to master) Rather then you need this or removing a choice(Roach speed). I would like to see forgo roach for fast lair into ling hydra with rending claws(See above post) or early roach speed into lair with hydra speed and multi-pronged attacks and super tough roaches. This forces a trade of more damage for more durability. (Or vice versa) The difference of muta ling and roach infestor. How do you want to control the battle? Rather then Protoss Near-Linear Progression. With protoss it is always gateway into. This is not, and never should be, for zerg.
I would recommend considering making roaches rather then weaker early in dps, make them less survivable or slower. If you make them slower off-creep, then it opens up new avenues for strategy for both zerg and their opponent. Knowing they need to commit to roach speed to get aggressive. Rather then they are faster(More map control) But can't break your wall-in. This makes a player who was going roaches defensively lose little. While one going aggression has to give off clues(an early evo) it makes bluffs viable, gives action against it and means that roaches as a whole are not nerfed through the head. (Roaches remain as they are generally while people who commit to them get some benefits NOTE: Roach Speed Upgrade would need to take longer to research think about 20-30 sec to keep roach all-ins in line)
Hydralisks need more survive-ability and efficiency. You can do this with more range, faster attack animation(easier kiting), increased movement speed, or more health, but hydras as they are must be changed to make them a real viable unit. This cannot just be a DPS buff with some upgrades (This would artificially slow the effective hydras while allowing a potent early AA to be sure but these early hydras would see little use as the meta-game evolved)
Infestors are infestors are infestors. ITs, Fungals, Nuerals, they all need a bit of something to make them feel right but over all they need to be adjusted to fit within the zerg army as a strategic choice not a "Build or lose" (Option?) Consider 75-80% slow maybe slight change in duration and damage if lower then that. As for IT Go for the hatch time make it something you have to do a bit sooner to get the full effect(something reactive rather then a straight nerf is always preferable)
Feedback is appreciated!
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