Roach/Hydra/Infestor WoL Test Map

On October 26 2012 12:49 AzraelArchontas wrote:
I love all this constructive dialog!
I guess let me get started with roaches!

I feel that roaches should be a choice not like cybernetics core the zerg dynamic is based on linear progression towards Hive from lair. Even if it isn't a requirement making it a staple or a must would stagnate play.
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Imo I prefer the idea of a mobile high damage ling hydra to roach hydra and would prefer the game clearly reflect this choice. Roach warren for the cost of 25/0 would be so cheap that it would have to have considerably lower health to match making it easy to snipe and a problem for the zergs who chose roach aggression (Its life would have to be that of a unit or walls would be over common and vipers would have a near-free feeding frenzy). I agree on the front of an upgrade to lower roach supply but I feel this would be to dramatic no matter how you implement it(30 extra roaches that's all I have to say). On the front of FF it would nullify your roaches completely and make colossus that much more effective against roaches.

I would like roaches to become more versatile while adjusting them to be moderately less efficient early without losing that trait throughout the game

Hydralisks
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I don't see how the hydralisk buff compensates for the infestor nerf- hydralisks are too fragile and expensive to be a staple unit in ZvP and ZvT (especially for their position in the tech tree), and their DPS is still a shadow of Fungal Growth's. All three matchups rely heavily on fungal growth out of necessity, not out of a stylistic choice, and Hydralisks have proven too fragile and expensive despite their high DPS.

I would agree with you that is why I gave Hydralisks
90 life
a slight speed buff
+1 range buff

This makes them more stable and gives them an in-direct damage buff. I wanted hydralisks to be an army choice that didn't need roaches and roaches to be a choice without hydralisks. My main fear is with the range nerf and the damage buff with no health it forces you into roach hydra a little to much (If you want one you need the other) Because of the roaches decreased damage and the hydras need for a good meatshield. (Of coarse other options are viable but I think probably not as effective) This also forces hydralisks into a Damage/Support? role where is is there to do as much damage as it can before it dies(This saddens me) Unitl your late-game of coarse where they become the biggest monsters on the street with high DPS range and speed(This is where I don't mind the less life)

Infestor
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The cost change is interesting but the fungal needs at least 75% slow to be effective even with the altered cost. I find it necessary to have a powerful effect on fungal and small changes to IT since they are so vital. My preference is to focus on options(hydras or IT) Options give similar results in once situation for various trade-offs and force decisions tactics and strategies to form around them.

My hope is to force intuitive design with complex repercussions. (Easy to learn, Hard to master) Rather then you need this or removing a choice(Roach speed). I would like to see forgo roach for fast lair into ling hydra with rending claws(See above post) or early roach speed into lair with hydra speed and multi-pronged attacks and super tough roaches. This forces a trade of more damage for more durability. (Or vice versa) The difference of muta ling and roach infestor. How do you want to control the battle? Rather then Protoss Near-Linear Progression. With protoss it is always gateway into. This is not, and never should be, for zerg.

I would recommend considering making roaches rather then weaker early in dps, make them less survivable or slower. If you make them slower off-creep, then it opens up new avenues for strategy for both zerg and their opponent. Knowing they need to commit to roach speed to get aggressive. Rather then they are faster(More map control) But can't break your wall-in. This makes a player who was going roaches defensively lose little. While one going aggression has to give off clues(an early evo) it makes bluffs viable, gives action against it and means that roaches as a whole are not nerfed through the head. (Roaches remain as they are generally while people who commit to them get some benefits NOTE: Roach Speed Upgrade would need to take longer to research think about 20-30 sec to keep roach all-ins in line)

Hydralisks need more survive-ability and efficiency. You can do this with more range, faster attack animation(easier kiting), increased movement speed, or more health, but hydras as they are must be changed to make them a real viable unit. This cannot just be a DPS buff with some upgrades (This would artificially slow the effective hydras while allowing a potent early AA to be sure but these early hydras would see little use as the meta-game evolved)

Infestors are infestors are infestors. ITs, Fungals, Nuerals, they all need a bit of something to make them feel right but over all they need to be adjusted to fit within the zerg army as a strategic choice not a "Build or lose" (Option?) Consider 75-80% slow maybe slight change in duration and damage if lower then that. As for IT Go for the hatch time make it something you have to do a bit sooner to get the full effect(something reactive rather then a straight nerf is always preferable)

Feedback is appreciated!

Roach
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Yeah, I also think that roaches should be a choice. But I think there is a problem getting them early game right now without investing too much into them. A huge part of this is simply the fact that a roach warren is quite an expensive building early on, if you don't use it for many roaches, but that's not what you want if you want to play macro.
Roach speed however isn't a choice to begin with. If you have a certain amount of roaches, you must go for it and you don't even have a lot of different timings for it. You go for it basically asap if you want to use roaches outside of rushes, so I'm quite fine with removing it.
The roach supply upgrade is probably just bad by the notion that there is nothing else like that in the game. I think the better solution would be to give them a different T3 upgrade that really makes them scale better in the endgame, but I'm not really sure if this is necessary. From my testings, it is very simple: roach/hydra > hydra > roach in the lategame. Therefore the roach has a role, even if it is just that you have 10-20 roaches that eat shots instead of the hydralisks (which is quite a big role, compared to how few of other units we often times see).

Hydralisk
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I think the infestor basically fullfills 4roles in ZvX in the lategame, which I'm going to list in order of importance:
1) ranged damage output; it's the unit that does a ton of damage from behind
2) Anti-Air
3) harassing
4) punish opponents for poking around too much

I think a strong hydralisk can take over/share number 1) and 2) with the infestor. Even number 4) is part of the 7range hydra package. You step to far forward with too little troops? Hydras are going to kill quite a bunch of stuff.
Also, fungal growth is not out. It has the same dps. Units still have to be prespread or they are going to eat a ton of damage. But you cannot chainfungal a thousand units that clumped too hard.

I haven't implemented the kiting thing for hydralisks, because of the roots of this problem:
why can't hydras kite like other units that have long attack animations (for example stalkers):
-) slow speed (obvious why faster speed helps)
-) fast attack rate: stalkers can kite, because they attack rather slowly, so even with their attack animation, they still have plenty of time. Now I have slowed down the attack speed of hydralisks and voila - suddenly you can kite quite a bit better!

Kiting and 7range make a huge difference when fighting Protoss as far as I have noticed. Against Colossi, you can kite, kill some zealots and stalkers and anytime he runs in to attack the hydras with the colossi, you can suddenly step forward and pick one of with the (roaches and) hydralisks. it's really interesting what +1range and some speed can do in terms of combat dynamic!

Infestor
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I agree, 60% slow is probably too much, but it's a bit of a testing choice. Nerf it down, see if it is possible to compensate for it. The costchange is not in there (yet?), because I don't want to screw too many variables. Right now it's a straight up nerf and everybody can see that it is one. With less costs, people might be afraid that infestors might be buffed in some situations (read the comments about roaches. 2.81speed from the start is really helpful in a lot of situations!)

On October 28 2012 23:39 blackbrrd wrote:
My understanding of the range upgrade for the Roach, from 3 to 4 was so that good micro couldn't more or less nullify Roaches, but always let them do some damage. In the mean time they also increased the range of the Immortal from 5 to 6, so I don't think nerfing them would be a good idea.

Well, this was an early game problem and I compensated for it with more speed, which does the same for the problem at hand!

Roach/Hydra/Infestor WoL Test Map - Page 2

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