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Hi all,
From the outset I'd like to say that my own input on this discussion is limited to PT/TT/PP teams, because of the nature of how defensive their races can be, which ties into this discussion. I'd also like to say that I understand fully well that 2v2, from the top all the way to the bottom, is balanced towards early aggression (I'll call it cheese because it usually involves cutting workers, but I won't do so derisively) but it's also very much not a mature set of strategies. If you really feel like you need to post that this discussion is a waste of time because everyone only cheese in 2v2, do what you feel, but my goal here is to discuss builds and gameplans which allow an economic opening (either a fast expansion or a simple commitment to spending chrono on the nexus or larva on drones) to be safe. This includes:
-Map considerations
-When to scout
-What to look for when you scout
-What to expect from a racial mix
-Your build (based on the map and what you've scouted)
-Your building placement (Based on the map)
-Your long-term gameplan
My partner and I are a PT/TT (he plays random, but when he randoms zerg we don't tend to have a clear idea of what to do for the type of gameplan I'm discussing - I'm hoping he racepicks soon) team. We're not very good at 1's - I'm a diamond terran (former bottom-masters zerg, which may as well have been diamond) and he's a plat random. We are, however, at the top of diamond / low masters 2v2 (rank 1 diamond as of late). I don't say this like it means much, except that our 2s rank is much higher than our 1s ranks, and we play an eco-focused game almost every time. We lose to some well-executed cheeses (again, just an aggressive opener which cuts eco), but we hold off a surprising number of them with an expansion behind it. Again, the important thing to note is that we are nowhere near the top of anything, in terms of anything--rank, mechanics, cleanliness of builds--so I can't help but think that were our mechanics up to par, we would be doing much better with the same set of gameplans.
I would like to present our general plan, and use that to open a larger discussion which all boils down to the one question: How and when is it possible, at a high level, to play an eco-focused early game safely in 2v2?
I'd like to point out - this is not a guide. We are not high-level enough players to be making a guide, but we have noticed that we are able to hold off a startling number of fairly well-executed rushes in spite of our eco build, using fairly standardized thinking. It may be that we are simply victims of our low level, or there may be something to it; in either case, I would really like the discussion to focus on what can be done to prevent various types of rushes, based on the map, teams, and scouting, while maintaining an economic advantage and playing more for the mid/late game. I am only presenting our plan to spur discussion.
In general, here is our PT/TT plan:
+ Show Spoiler [PT/TT PLAN] ++ Show Spoiler [Map Considerations] +In general, there are three types of 2v2 maps out there: Large maps with a shared natural+ Show Spoiler +Small maps with a fortress+ Show Spoiler +And a third, in-between set of maps, with a fortress but long walk distances:+ Show Spoiler +In general, shared-natural maps are very defensible with a FE build, and the in-between maps can be defended while focusing on workers. Fortress maps in general tend to have expansions which are very difficult to hold. Tyrador Keep can be an exception, depending on where you spawn. The primary feature that I've noticed on these maps is where you wall off. There are very few situations (vs TT being the only one I can think of) where walling off is not beneficial in the early game. It allows you to shut down melee-based cheese almost for free, and in truth, marines and roaches do not do well vs a wall + bunkers / cannons either due to the extra range of the defensive buildings. In the mid- to late- game, a wall vs terran and protoss can seriously impair you defensively, and so that is factored into our gameplan. On shared-natural maps, specifically Molten Crater and Magma Core, it is very easy to wall our natural area and place bunkers and cannons on both the low and high ground and be very safe from conventional rushes behind a fast expansion. Keep in mind that even if you pull workers to repair, you are still ahead. This is the map type where we are able to execute our eco-based play most consistently. On fortress maps, especially maps like Ruins of Tarsonis, we still struggle to make any eco-play work, since the walk distances are so short. We tend to use this more on the shared-natural maps, as well as Tyrador Keep due to the choke at the natural. + Show Spoiler [What we scout for, and how we react] +In general, we scout at the standard time (after our barracks/forge/gateway/whatever goes down). Here is generally what we look for from each race: + Show Spoiler [Zerg] +
The obvious one here is a fast pool. If the pool is done or almost done it's pretty clear what's coming. (We've found that if you send out a scout on 12 it reaches zerg's main almost exactly when lings are popping out from a 6pool). In that case, it's critical to finish the wall immediately and drop a bunker / cannon. One marine + repair is obviously enough to stop a bunch of lings from breaking a wall, but if there is another marine present in the rush, you're in trouble.
The second frequent opening we see is gas+pool+no expansion. This will be speedlings, banelings, or roaches. In any case, it's going to come later than a 6pool, and will probably come along with a healthy mass of marines, zealot/stalker, or roaches from the partner. In this case, we double-up our walls (2 pylons/depots) and drop defensive buildings, but we're able to expand and don't need to fast-plug the hole.
There are also eco openings - slower pool, expansion, drones, but how we open against those is generally to just play greedy.
There are only three things we usually see from a Terran rush: A huge mob of bio (more often marines, but marauders are the dangerous ones); hellions; or fast banshees.
Hellions are the hardest (for me) to spot coming from a 12 scout. I think it generally looks like 1 rax and 1 gas by the time the scout gets there on a larger map, and a naked rax by the time the scout dies/leaves. This is almost completely shut down by a wall and cannons/bunkers. It tends to come alongside roaches (roach/hellion is a pretty popular rush), a baneling bust, or stalkers; either way, a terran should skew towards marauders over marines, and bunkers either way; I think a Protoss should actually skip his expansion for the moment in favor of gas for sentries and stalkers. I'm not sure if they can be out in time off of a forge opening.
Bio comes in two flavors: Mass marines, and MM/just marauders. Mass marines are easily shut down by a few cannons/bunkers, but the thing to be concerned about here is marines taking down our wall for zerglings to run in. A marine/stalker rush is also concerning, and I think you need marauders in bunkers + / cannons with SCVs pulled to repair to hold it. 3 naked rax will generally indicate mass marines, while 2 rax and a gas + tech lab seem to indicate MM/Marauders. There are other variants, but they tend to be something like a stim / shield push, which come much later and are of less concern.
Fast banshees is pretty obvious, and is generally scouted with 2 gas by 18 food. It's also pretty easy to shut down with a turret, but it's important for us to be careful of our corners if the other opponent is protoss - more on that later.
This is where I have the least experience scouting. A 4gate is usually pretty transparent, as is 2-gate zealot aggression (2 gates, no core) but in general protoss tend to commit to a path later. I could really use help figuring out what means what.
I've covered what we are wary of pretty thoroughly in the last section, but there are two things I want to touch on: Corner checking and the out-of-the-ordinary. + Show Spoiler [Corner checking] +
This is specifically against teams with a protoss opponent. It does not mean hunting in corners for probes, but rather for watching our ridges. Most of our defensive plans hinge on holding a walled-off area with an expansion behind it using building placement and defensive compositions. Therefore, a protoss with a 4-gate, a pylon just below the ridge, and an overlord or banshee to spot for it is basically gg if we don't spot it.
Spotting and controlling the pylons is critically important, but especially against PZ teams, it's almost equally important to control overlords at the start. If we see an ovie headed towards our base with our 12 scout, we keep note of it, and use two marines early-on to patrol our cliffs. If we spot a naked overlord (without zerglings protecting it - this is sloppy play, but common) we take it.
Banshees are much more challenging to deal with, because they can kill a couple of patrolling marines and aggressively guard pylons. If we spot banshees coming via 2-gas vs PT with a 4-gate or 3-gate coming from protoss, we may build cannons / turrets on our ridges as well as near our worker lines. This would put us behind in a macro game, but the idea is that we're not playing a macro game, we're surviving a rush and having more workers /expansions behind it.
I've presented here SOME of the things we've seen, but one of the challenges / joys of 2v2 is that there really is no standard play, and anything can happen. This is part of why eco-focused play is so difficult to use; it's much easier to survive anything if you have a bunch of units at 6 minutes than if you have a bunch of workers and some cannons. We've seen what looked like a banshee rush from terran actually be a 2 tank and 1 viking push which guarded a ridge pylon extremely aggressively. Players can feed money to one another, meaning a 4gate can become a 5gate and be executed much faster. A 3-rax can actually be a 5-rax with 2 tech labs for marauders. Tanks can make it out by 6 minutes. Finding ways to deal with these sorts of maneuvers in a universal way is extremely challenging, but part of the fun.
For defensive/eco games on shared-natural maps, my partner and I tend to have fairly standard builds. As T, he uses a mech-style build which expands after building two factories, and essentially pushes out tanks as quickly as he can. It's not a particularly optimized build, but he tends to have one or two them out in time for most rushes we've seen. As P, he tends to FFE and then go 1-gate robo, with a focus on immortals and sentries. Again, not particularly optimal or clean.
I universally 1-rax FE and focus on bio play with upgrades. It's not a particularly clean execution, and there's not a lot to talk about.
We tend to flounder more on fortress maps. We tend to try to expand when we're safe, which is after tech. I'll tend to push more for marine-tank with a 1-1-1 opening, while he'll 1-gate robo without a forge. Again, we don't have a lot to say here because we tend to flounder more.
As I mentioned, if we're fast-expanding building placement is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. On shared-natural maps, bunkers and cannons are placed on both the low and high ground. Unit producing structures are placed where they can most quickly reinforce the front and take the least damage from high-ground warpins or doom drops (near the naturals). Pylons and bunkers are placed along the edges to spot.
In general, if we hold off a rush with an expansion we are, predictably, ahead. I'll tend to push for medivacs and begin dropping to hold back expansions and attacks while my partner builds a deathball, either protoss or terran mech. We both try to expand aggressively, and stay active on the map with fast units such as hellions, small packs of zealots, and marines to prevent any shenanigans. We always have detection, because "when behind, dark shrine" applies in 2's as well.
So, that is my general gameplan for 2s. I'd like to hear anything you all have to say - how do you stay safe in 2s while pushing for the mid/late game, considering we're not playing NR20craft? What's worked for you? What hasn't? What are your super-optimized rushes? What successfully stops them when you execute them? Why are all of my gameplans, builds, and considerations pure bunk? I'd really love to get some legitimate discussion on 2s beyond "it's all rushing and no balance, stop trying and just get with it."
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Cheese really isn't as strong as you think. Sure theres some crummy maps and some weird matchups like PP against TZ where cheese can be good. But most games i find come down to scouting and game sense.
In the early game you need to scout for aggressive openers. Here is what you should look for. (I'll assume you're playing as TP).
playing against ZZ.
Scout immediately after pylon and prepare for immediate wall off if need be. If they early pool have the terran finish the wall fast. Get sentries out as quick as you can and probably have terran throw up a bunker or two (they will probably baneling bust all in to follow up). At this point you basically won. There really isn't a need to get expansions and attack upgrades ect. Zerg econ is wrecked. You should just do a strong one base push (probably like void ray stalker with mm or marine tank ect.). Dont get cute and go for dts or something.
ZP
Again check for pools and make sure theres isn't a proxy. Remember to always be starting off a wall with your buildings. If they go ten pool with proxy cannon at your wall then it can get a bit messy. Have terran immediately build a bunker at his mineral line and toss should build a forge immediately to cannon near his. Your going to lose the wall for sure so float the terrans rax after his first marine pops. The depot and initial pylon will die but no biggy. It really comes down to crisis management and follow up at this point. Just try not to die but dont burn too much money in defensive cannons.
TT
Nothing really cheesy they can do that cant be shut down with a bunker. I would worry more about 1 base marine tank banshee all ins.
PP
Scout for proxy immediately. If you can find the proxy pylons immediately send three to 4 workers at each one and try to kill it. Get units out asap. Easy win if you find it fast.
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On August 10 2012 23:46 RedMosquito wrote:
Cheese really isn't as strong as you think. Sure theres some crummy maps and some weird matchups like PP against TZ where cheese can be good. But most games i find come down to scouting and game sense.
In the early game you need to scout for aggressive openers. Here is what you should look for. (I'll assume you're playing as TP).
playing against ZZ.
Scout immediately after pylon and prepare for immediate wall off if need be. If they early pool have the terran finish the wall fast. Get sentries out as quick as you can and probably have terran throw up a bunker or two (they will probably baneling bust all in to follow up). At this point you basically won. There really isn't a need to get expansions and attack upgrades ect. Zerg econ is wrecked. You should just do a strong one base push (probably like void ray stalker with mm or marine tank ect.). Dont get cute and go for dts or something.
ZP
Again check for pools and make sure theres isn't a proxy. Remember to always be starting off a wall with your buildings. If they go ten pool with proxy cannon at your wall then it can get a bit messy. Have terran immediately build a bunker at his mineral line and toss should build a forge immediately to cannon near his. Your going to lose the wall for sure so float the terrans rax after his first marine pops. The depot and initial pylon will die but no biggy. It really comes down to crisis management and follow up at this point. Just try not to die but dont burn too much money in defensive cannons.
TT
Nothing really cheesy they can do that cant be shut down with a bunker. I would worry more about 1 base marine tank banshee all ins.
PP
Scout for proxy immediately. If you can find the proxy pylons immediately send three to 4 workers at each one and try to kill it. Get units out asap. Easy win if you find it fast.
Thanks for your response! I have a few questions for you:
Can I ask what level your information comes from? I agree with most of what you say, except for your assertion that cheese / rushing really isn't that strong. At the top level of 2s we still seem to see mostly very well-executed rushes with very tight timings that hit before a defensive/eco player can quite handle it.
6/10 pool + cannon rush only seems to work against players who don't know how to handle it - denying high-ground vision is usually enough to be safe.
What do you generally do in order to be safe and push for a mid/late-focused game?
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I play at mid masters.
Like i said cheese is strong when there's some kind of imbalance present. Could depend on the race matchup and more likely the map. High level 2v2 players know the imbalances and will take the free wins when they can. But they dont always rush and sometimes they know that playing defensively or fast expanding is the best option. It all really depends.
You cant deny high ground vision against 6 pool and proxy cannon. The fast zerglings provide the vision by going halfway up the ramp. You can try and get a bunker up and defend the wall, but from my experience the multiple cannons and the zerglings attacking your front is too much for scvs to repair. Plus if you screw up once everything dies and you lose the game. Best bet is to bunker your mineral line immediately, make one marine and float rax back to your cc. You will lose a depot but the game goes on.
Also imo you should try to only play shared base maps. Its the closest thing to balance in 2v2.
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On August 11 2012 00:11 RedMosquito wrote:
I play at mid masters.
Like i said cheese is strong when there's some kind of imbalance present. Could depend on the race matchup and more likely the map. High level 2v2 players know the imbalances and will take the free wins when they can. But they dont always rush and sometimes they know that playing defensively or fast expanding is the best option. It all really depends.
You cant deny high ground vision against 6 pool and proxy cannon. The fast zerglings provide the vision by going halfway up the ramp. You can try and get a bunker up and defend the wall, but from my experience the multiple cannons and the zerglings attacking your front is too much for scvs to repair. Plus if you screw up once everything dies and you lose the game. Best bet is to bunker your mineral line immediately, make one marine and float rax back to your cc. You will lose a depot but the game goes on.
Also imo you should try to only play shared base maps. Its the closest thing to balance in 2v2.
I see - I'll use that plan the next time I get 6/10-pooled / cannon rushed. Thanks for the info!
I disagree with the shared-base assertion, to be honest. The point of my OP was essentially to assert that you can play a shared-natural map with long run distances (Magma, molten, etc) and fast-expand safely.
In general, what do you do to play safe / play for the mid/lategame?
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Diamond Z 2v2 RT player. I'll assume that cheese is off the table 
ZZ safe opening, both 14/14 speedling, one expo the other Roach, scout on 12, you might lose the drone vs T as the first marine will be out on big maps or if possition is scouted last. This opens out into standard play for both players but can also allow for something like a ling/ bane + roach bust if your opponents are greedy.
Also 10p and 15h can work, it relies heavily on the 10p player keeping the opponents pinned back so the 15h player can get a macro lead.
ZT 14/14 and a defencive 2 rax with bunkers if the attack. Again allows for standard play or agrressive pushes. Ling hellion is very cheesy and fails hard if your oppenents can wall themselves in or join armies.
ZP Gate Forge openings work well from the not dying point of view but delay tech, you can make up for this by getting a fast +1. Z needs to scout heavily, again I like to 14/14 speedling. If in doubt make a roach warren and baneling nest.
Can't say about the other matchups since I don't play them. Cheese can be strong but only If you don't know it's coming/ how to react. With both cheese and timing pushes, if it fails it tends to fail HARD so i prefer more standard play. Also if you are playing RT as I do, you can't rely on your ally to know what to do until you are high masters. Obviously AT have an advantage there, especially if you have something like Skype to communcate.
I haven't listed BO's for all matchups because it's too restricting. You can play 5 games ZTvTP and every one of them might be different so there is no point saying "I will 14/14 FE every game and my ally will go 3 rax stim and push" when there could be any number of stratigies employed by your opponents
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Make 3 gateways + a tech path and tanks before you expand. That's "standard" safe in 2v2.
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Vega the higher you go, the harder those rushes are going to be to hold. I played against these guys who rofl stomp everyyyyyyone in any team game and the terran went for that 3 rax super aggressive marine aggro at our front, and kept us on the back foot until, I shit you not, 2 dts appeared in each of our min lines at SIX minutes flat, with 4 more righhhhht after that. Double 11 proxy rauders with 10pool destroys any team with no zs unless they handle it perfectly and were massing up from the start for an early timing as well. 2 hatch +1 mass slings with stalker heavy 4 gate will hit you at 6 minutes and rofl stomp more things than they should. There's a million timings that could hit you, and will if good players recognize that you and your bud are playing greedy. But like Vega said it's just about recognizing what the cheezes are with your scout, so go download mKcPandalove, XsPractice, XsHydra, XsPoptart, or Kalamity's replays if you can find them. I guarantee you if they do a timing against some team fast expoing that it's a one sided game. Plus, no one will execute the group timing better than them, so you can get a feel for the optimal timings for those op team builds (which is what it boils down to, it's balanced for 1v1 not teams, and people have absolutely figured out op timings to exploit people who aren't familiar with them).
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Thanks for starting this discussion, we definitely need to raise awareness of the viability of macro play in 2v2. However, the question is a little to vague IMO. Trying to talk about "safe play" for every matchup on every map in one thread is overwhelming... there are 21 matchups on 8 maps, and while you can group them to a degree, the number of combinations is prohibitive to a general discussion.
I have played every matchup as a premade at some point, though have only broken masters with PZ, TZ, and TT. PZ and TZ are clearly the strongest compositions. PP is simply not viable at a high level IMO without really extreme play-- the early game is too vulnerable, and the compositions not versatile enough. ZZ can be strong with clever reading and mind games, I've just never had a good ZZ premade. PT is possible, but difficult due to their sluggish start early game.
To get to your question as best I can -- an eco game IS possible, but must be reactionary and situational.
Here are the factors I use for my PZ and TZ teams:
- Do they have a zerg? If not, expand and defend the cheese/6:00 push. You can almost always gain an economic edge when you have a zerg and they don't. The non-zerg's role
- Does the map have a protected internal expansion (tyrador, boneyard)? Then, obviously, take it.
- Is it a shared fortress map without a vulnerable backdoor (magma core, lunar colony)? Scout for cheese, then zerg should speedling expand and defend the natural while ally techs up.
- does the map have backdoor ramps, no shared ramp, or an open natural (scorched haven, molten crater, to a lesser degree ruins of tarsonis)? Aggression time. Attack hard and delay your expansion until they are contained or you have dealt major damage.
In all cases, scout early and scout often. You have to react to what you are seeing, sometimes in really extreme ways. Don't be afraid of static defense -- holding an all in is worth it no matter how many cannons and spines you had to build.
When you've established that it's not a super fast cheese, prioritize map control and harass. Any combination of Hellion/Ling/Stalker is still standard for mobility and aggression. After that, it is all about who has the most effective harassment, coupled with the most powerful AOE. Mutas or drops paired with tank/colossus/infestor will decide the game.
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As a top master player, I am a huge fan of reactor hellion builds except against zp, which i am either going to one base tank or reactor medivac, depending on my partner. Hellion builds allow for huge growth in mechanics, and are great for scouting. I tend to avoid them against zp because of ling cannon builds and roach builds that just shut down hellion play, but if you are smart about them, hellions can put you in great positions for map control. If you open hellion and control well, your partner play reactively to gain an advantage.
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Combro is right, reactor hellion with mass slings is stupid strong early game (provided the zerg doesn't donate early lings before helllions pop/ and that the terran stays glued to the back of the lings). before they have enough armored shit to deal. Separate bases against ling hellion= zerg dead always, terran and toss dead usually provided no hellions/cannons from them.
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We've died as PZ to ling/hellion pretty much every time it gets used. At low masters, that's not very often, but I still hate rolling TZ and having to say "welp, I guess we just die if they do that."
How do you actually hold it without doing something hilariously over-defensive?
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Belisarius, zerg just needs to get fast roaches, and toss just needs to wall off with cannons with a stargate follow-up
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Ling hellion is standard in TZ vs PZ. the thing it´s a ling war. and the hellions will kill ALLLLLLLL lings for PZ. and after that lings wil kill everyting PZ have. EVERYTING. stalkers, buildings queens and the rest. Here is what I know about this matchup.
Ling hellion timing is 6:00 somthing i think. You can hurt the TZ befor that happnds. stalker lings can make som pressur if TZ is greedy use ovi to scot up the ramp have the lings redy to support the stalkers and rush in if you bust. but be carfull, lose the lings and you lose the ling war and u lose the game fast. Or you can oppend cannon 10 pool and pressur expand contain them. After this they have to go raoch marin.
If no pressur before ling hellion pops you can in my opinopn do 2 things.
1) Roach stalker and push after, but doing this you may gt a ling run by and then yo are all in.
2) Mass stalkers go blink and tek infestors. To do this you may need cannons and spines. All depending on map and NR of exp you have. But remember if TZ is fast to go roach marin after ling hellion, your roach/stalker vill lose.
If you go infestor/blink you can out manover them. Blink up somewhere. and borrow and throw out mass infestor terran some other place
I like NR 2, dont lt them get up the ramp whit cnnon spines and stalkers!
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with ling hellion, what is the optimal zerg build order, assuming terran goes gas first? (Or should they?) SHould Z 10 pool or should T get 2 marines and a wall before hellions?
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with ling hellion, what is the optimal zerg build order, assuming terran goes gas first? (Or should they?) SHould Z 10 pool or should T get 2 marines and a wall before hellions?
depends on. Old schol was 10 pool so terran made gas first and no marins. But U can go 13 gas 13 pool and then stop geting gas. But I think keep 3 drons geting gas and get lair so you dont die to DT if you havent scouted they dont go DT alredy.
But you have to exp to get larva and a one queen otherwish you have alot of minirals.
But it is greedy to skip marins unless you scout that he is not making a stalker.
There is one style where zerg give terran a gas and charing controll so terran can harvest fromm it. This mean terran can go 12 rax and not gas first and make a marin.
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One thing I noticed (top 30 2v2 EU last season or so) is that the stronger the opponent's opening is, the weaker they are as players.
For example, one of the strongest openings on some maps is the cannon rush with overlord vision + early pool (we play TT). When we somehow manage to hold it off (losing 10 SCVs repairing bunkers or microing, with 1 marine behind it), we look pretty dead on the replay, but they transition into something dumb like mass lings or even an incomplete baneling bust (doesn't even kill a building), or even mass void rays pulled, all that with 50 APM each. That's the kind of team which only does this build, got to a relatively high MMR fast with it, but can't really play a standard game. The same goes for really greedy openings, but those are a bit rarer.
Whereas some teams do a half-hearted 1 base powering with a safe but late expand, don't even pressure, and still manage to win due to good decisions, harassment, map awareness, etc..
So in short, you can stick in the game a bit longer than you would in 1v1, 2v2 players with really powerful shit early game are usually not so good as to play perfect behind their advantage, so don't pull an IdrA :D
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Good discussion. I'm glad that there is a thread to talk about 2v2, because it's all I play. That said, I don't think there is a catch all 'safe' opening in 2v2. Your entire approach needs to be situational. What you see with your scout will dictate what approaches are viable and which are not.
I always shudder when I get a random partner, and they tell me what they are going to do as soon as the game starts. Actually, a lot of my random partners make me shudder. Playing random 2v2 ladder has made me lose a great deal of faith in humanity. But I digress.
I think the idea that you can always safely expand in 2v2 is wrong. There are synergistic openings in 2v2 that you WILL NOT hold if you play greedy. Greedy play always involves risk, and the risk in 2v2 is greater because there is not one, but two armies ready to kick your ass if you get it wrong.
In my experience, the key to being safe in 2v2 is not any particular opening, but how quickly you can get actionable intel on what the enemy is doing.
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EPT
