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One thing I noticed (top 30 2v2 EU last season or so) is that the stronger the opponent's opening is, the weaker they are as players.
For example, one of the strongest openings on some maps is the cannon rush with overlord vision + early pool (we play TT). When we somehow manage to hold it off (losing 10 SCVs repairing bunkers or microing, with 1 marine behind it), we look pretty dead on the replay, but they transition into something dumb like mass lings or even an incomplete baneling bust (doesn't even kill a building), or even mass void rays pulled, all that with 50 APM each. That's the kind of team which only does this build, got to a relatively high MMR fast with it, but can't really play a standard game. The same goes for really greedy openings, but those are a bit rarer.
Whereas some teams do a half-hearted 1 base powering with a safe but late expand, don't even pressure, and still manage to win due to good decisions, harassment, map awareness, etc..
So in short, you can stick in the game a bit longer than you would in 1v1, 2v2 players with really powerful shit early game are usually not so good as to play perfect behind their advantage, so don't pull an IdrA :D
Hahaha that sooo me. Cannon 10 pool all the way. I was going to say that I find 2v2 master players really good att all unit controll, but maby its me that is only bad. So me and my alli only rellay on good team work and good build orders. haha We are soo bad players really.
We dont go stupid stuff fter thou. we play really standard and SoliD. But 2v2 master players are really good at micro!
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On August 16 2012 16:34 MicroMonkey wrote:Show nested quote +with ling hellion, what is the optimal zerg build order, assuming terran goes gas first? (Or should they?) SHould Z 10 pool or should T get 2 marines and a wall before hellions? depends on. Old schol was 10 pool so terran made gas first and no marins. But U can go 13 gas 13 pool and then stop geting gas. But I think keep 3 drons geting gas and get lair so you dont die to DT if you havent scouted they dont go DT alredy. But you have to exp to get larva and a one queen otherwish you have alot of minirals. But it is greedy to skip marins unless you scout that he is not making a stalker. There is one style where zerg give terran a gas and charing controll so terran can harvest fromm it. This mean terran can go 12 rax and not gas first and make a marin.
Personally whenever I've done ling hellion i've gone for the 10p with gas to get fast spped, leave one guy in gas and get an evo chamber at either 70 gas (after speed) for a fast +1 melee or 120 gas for +1 armor. My ally with go gas first and go either reactor hellion > maruders or reactor hellion > banshee depending on the MU.
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I play 2v2 P/T i'm the protoss. i'm in diamond league with my buddy who is in bronze
i have developed strategys he can use and we can exploit with the 2v2 mechanics that have been working amazing, in diamond we have been placed against alot of masters players now and we have been winning, i expect a promo soon =D.
we have 3 solid strats.
i forget the specific match ups we use em against cause our strats are based around the races we are playing against and my buddy has our success rate strat/races on his comp.
1) i do an 8 gate with him feeding me minerals non stop, while i get blink and +1. this hits hard and we rarely lose. (blink can be exchanged for charge based on the races you're playing against it just takes longer so timing is usually later which can screw things up. if Terran fast expands it delays it a bit but you can throw in alot more gateways making it pretty stupid.
2) i do gatex2 and he does 2 rax with concussive shells start push after first maruader, and with the slow, zealots catch up to anything. and maruaders take care of roaches/stalkers while zealots take care of marines/lings.
3) our bread and butter and will kill if not scouted, basically 1 gate straight tech to mothership saving all chrono for the ship after using 3 to produce probes. warp gate tech not chrono'd and 4 gates all line up for a mean push. my terran friend just goes 4rax and feeds me 200 gas as soon as he can while getting all infantry upgrades and pumping out non stop. (FYI dont use against double terran)
in all these strats he gives me control of his units and i basically focus on army and he focus's on base defense in case of a counter attack.
*you'll see a few of our strats involve the feeding of minerals to me =D i'm only gold league in 1v1, i have great game knowledge but often fail to execute it properly in 1v1 situations. 2v2 he takes care of macro and i take care of unit control making things much easier to deal with.
so 1v1 i'm not that good, but with my game knowledge myself and my bronze league buddy are almost masters.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
On August 18 2012 01:09 Skunkcaps wrote:
I play 2v2 P/T i'm the protoss. i'm in diamond league with my buddy who is in bronze
i have developed strategys he can use and we can exploit with the 2v2 mechanics that have been working amazing, in diamond we have been placed against alot of masters players now and we have been winning, i expect a promo soon =D.
we have 3 solid strats.
i forget the specific match ups we use em against cause our strats are based around the races we are playing against and my buddy has our success rate strat/races on his comp.
1) i do an 8 gate with him feeding me minerals non stop, while i get blink and +1. this hits hard and we rarely lose. (blink can be exchanged for charge based on the races you're playing against it just takes longer so timing is usually later which can screw things up. if Terran fast expands it delays it a bit but you can throw in alot more gateways making it pretty stupid.
2) i do gatex2 and he does 2 rax with concussive shells start push after first maruader, and with the slow, zealots catch up to anything. and maruaders take care of roaches/stalkers while zealots take care of marines/lings.
3) our bread and butter and will kill if not scouted, basically 1 gate straight tech to mothership saving all chrono for the ship after using 3 to produce probes. warp gate tech not chrono'd and 4 gates all line up for a mean push. my terran friend just goes 4rax and feeds me 200 gas as soon as he can while getting all infantry upgrades and pumping out non stop. (FYI dont use against double terran)
in all these strats he gives me control of his units and i basically focus on army and he focus's on base defense in case of a counter attack.
*you'll see a few of our strats involve the feeding of minerals to me =D i'm only gold league in 1v1, i have great game knowledge but often fail to execute it properly in 1v1 situations. 2v2 he takes care of macro and i take care of unit control making things much easier to deal with.
so 1v1 i'm not that good, but with my game knowledge myself and my bronze league buddy are almost masters.
For blink feeding builds, you should pull some scvs and repair the damaged stalkers that blink back (they are mechanical units), you can also mass repair the mothership as it has a large surface area.
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On August 18 2012 01:26 iHirO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 01:09 Skunkcaps wrote:
I play 2v2 P/T i'm the protoss. i'm in diamond league with my buddy who is in bronze
i have developed strategys he can use and we can exploit with the 2v2 mechanics that have been working amazing, in diamond we have been placed against alot of masters players now and we have been winning, i expect a promo soon =D.
we have 3 solid strats.
i forget the specific match ups we use em against cause our strats are based around the races we are playing against and my buddy has our success rate strat/races on his comp.
1) i do an 8 gate with him feeding me minerals non stop, while i get blink and +1. this hits hard and we rarely lose. (blink can be exchanged for charge based on the races you're playing against it just takes longer so timing is usually later which can screw things up. if Terran fast expands it delays it a bit but you can throw in alot more gateways making it pretty stupid.
2) i do gatex2 and he does 2 rax with concussive shells start push after first maruader, and with the slow, zealots catch up to anything. and maruaders take care of roaches/stalkers while zealots take care of marines/lings.
3) our bread and butter and will kill if not scouted, basically 1 gate straight tech to mothership saving all chrono for the ship after using 3 to produce probes. warp gate tech not chrono'd and 4 gates all line up for a mean push. my terran friend just goes 4rax and feeds me 200 gas as soon as he can while getting all infantry upgrades and pumping out non stop. (FYI dont use against double terran)
in all these strats he gives me control of his units and i basically focus on army and he focus's on base defense in case of a counter attack.
*you'll see a few of our strats involve the feeding of minerals to me =D i'm only gold league in 1v1, i have great game knowledge but often fail to execute it properly in 1v1 situations. 2v2 he takes care of macro and i take care of unit control making things much easier to deal with.
so 1v1 i'm not that good, but with my game knowledge myself and my bronze league buddy are almost masters. For blink feeding builds, you should pull some scvs and repair the damaged stalkers that blink back (they are mechanical units), you can also mass repair the mothership as it has a large surface area.
Also if the terran player gets 3rd CC for macro then you can either send more scvs (income suplimented with mules) or just call the mules in on the stalkers/ mothership for the repair. This would also allow for a fast 3rd base for terran and then either more feeding (more gateways!) or he can start making an army himself in case of a counter attack
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On August 18 2012 01:09 Skunkcaps wrote:
I play 2v2 P/T i'm the protoss. i'm in diamond league with my buddy who is in bronze
i have developed strategys he can use and we can exploit with the 2v2 mechanics that have been working amazing, in diamond we have been placed against alot of masters players now and we have been winning, i expect a promo soon =D.
we have 3 solid strats.
i forget the specific match ups we use em against cause our strats are based around the races we are playing against and my buddy has our success rate strat/races on his comp.
1) i do an 8 gate with him feeding me minerals non stop, while i get blink and +1. this hits hard and we rarely lose. (blink can be exchanged for charge based on the races you're playing against it just takes longer so timing is usually later which can screw things up. if Terran fast expands it delays it a bit but you can throw in alot more gateways making it pretty stupid.
2) i do gatex2 and he does 2 rax with concussive shells start push after first maruader, and with the slow, zealots catch up to anything. and maruaders take care of roaches/stalkers while zealots take care of marines/lings.
3) our bread and butter and will kill if not scouted, basically 1 gate straight tech to mothership saving all chrono for the ship after using 3 to produce probes. warp gate tech not chrono'd and 4 gates all line up for a mean push. my terran friend just goes 4rax and feeds me 200 gas as soon as he can while getting all infantry upgrades and pumping out non stop. (FYI dont use against double terran)
in all these strats he gives me control of his units and i basically focus on army and he focus's on base defense in case of a counter attack.
*you'll see a few of our strats involve the feeding of minerals to me =D i'm only gold league in 1v1, i have great game knowledge but often fail to execute it properly in 1v1 situations. 2v2 he takes care of macro and i take care of unit control making things much easier to deal with.
so 1v1 i'm not that good, but with my game knowledge myself and my bronze league buddy are almost masters.
1)all of these can die to a smart team with a z: the roach marine allin (10 roaches with sling reinforcing+ 12-15 marines) which can hit right after 6 min, cannon/ 8 pool (before your 1st marine), 2 hatch mass +1 ling/ heavy 4 gate (toss 3 stalker rushes 5ish, rest of army hits 6 min.)
2)marine/ling>marauder/zlot
3) can you elaborate on your 8 gate feeder build on two fronts: your timings for dropping gates/proxy; your response if terran pressured at all
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On August 16 2012 18:22 rathe wrote:
Good discussion. I'm glad that there is a thread to talk about 2v2, because it's all I play. That said, I don't think there is a catch all 'safe' opening in 2v2. Your entire approach needs to be situational. What you see with your scout will dictate what approaches are viable and which are not.
I always shudder when I get a random partner, and they tell me what they are going to do as soon as the game starts. Actually, a lot of my random partners make me shudder. Playing random 2v2 ladder has made me lose a great deal of faith in humanity. But I digress.
I think the idea that you can always safely expand in 2v2 is wrong. There are synergistic openings in 2v2 that you WILL NOT hold if you play greedy. Greedy play always involves risk, and the risk in 2v2 is greater because there is not one, but two armies ready to kick your ass if you get it wrong.
In my experience, the key to being safe in 2v2 is not any particular opening, but how quickly you can get actionable intel on what the enemy is doing.
Unless you're fighting double z you can safely fast expand every game pretty reasonably, as long as you and your partner are accounting for their race. Examples like if you have a protoss and they have a protoss, if you have a zerg and they're terran/zerg or double zerg, etc.
If you only expand based on what you scout you just aren't going to get very far. Your build should account for what they're capable of throwing at you and whether or not your expand can stop it. You even have a partner to supplement your weaknesses (i.e. PT can open hellion expand so toss doesn't have to FFE vs zerg). Builds just can't be scouted at a reasonable time where you haven't already delayed your expansion to the point you won't receive any benefit before an all-in arrives.
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Z 14/14 is pretty safe, you can also try for an earlier pool (12) and gas after hatch.
P 2gate stalker rush, with chrono on the gates is a great pressure build against most race compositions, and depending on what you scout/how much damage you do, you can either add on gates or expand relatively early.
T Most marine combat shield timings are very strong, as are two rax (12/13) pressure expands. Both allow you to transition relatively easily into an expansion.
If you work on mechanics, you can pull off nearly any opening at diamond and below. I go nexus first and 1rax CC a lot and hold all-ins in diamond teams ok if you both scout and prepare accordingly. I default to macro games, unless my teammates want to do a timing push. Much more fun, since most 2v2 players don't have same multitasking mechanics as a 1v1 player. So keep working on those small things, even if it seems like you don't need to!
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I dont have the numbers in front of me, and sometimes our timings are off cause, well, my partner is bronze so he can be slow but here is the jist.
as soon as i can i drop a twilight and forge, chrono out the forge i believe twice to line up with blink. when my warp gate tech is about halfway done i drop 7 gates with the minerals i've been fed.
I do all the scouting otherwise my partner will forget to build scv's (yeah it's like that lol) and i maintain scouting for a look out on early pressure. if i see anyone moving out usually i'll have 1 or 2 less gateways right away and state over and over again for my partner to build bunkers. if he gets a few bunkers up, i get my gateways with upgrades and am able to warp in with repairs and FF's. if we hold off any pressure it's game over in almost every case for the other guys.
alot of times i'll do the first warp in in my base and second while on the move. between i think it's 7:30-8:30 we are pushing out depending on early pressure we recieve. i'll see if i can find any of our old replays on it. you can also get away with a robo and get obs for high ground in case terran teams went for turle with tanks. ( i Love sneaking the mothership into their base and recalling my army while terran hits them in the front while i've got them distracted. i always have enough energy on my mothership to vortex or recall if i send it right away to enemies base)
the 8 gate feeder builds hits about when a normal 4 gate would just slightly later cause warpgate isn't chrono'd all the way. we've only lost using that build cause we either made mistakes (plylon block, forget a warp in cycle or feed cycle) or i was drunk =D
we used to do a 1/1/1 clocked banshee with myself going fast DT's, was really week to early pressure which 2v2 seems to be mostly and my buddy wasn't capable of pulling off the 1/1/1 very well.
really enjoy coming up with builds using the 2v2 mechanics, using medivacs to heal my chargelot arcon builds different types of feeder builds or just simple things like having him build me some refineries for different builds. still waiting for blizz to allow me to load my zealots into a medivac =/
i never even thought about taking SCV's to repair my mothership thanks to guy for saying that, i feel stupid not even trying that out cause i know svc's cant repair toss buildings so i never thought of using it to repair units.
Hope that is somewhat useful
3) can you elaborate on your 8 gate feeder build on two fronts: your timings for dropping gates/proxy; your response if terran pressured at all
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1)all of these can die to a smart team with a z: the roach marine allin (10 roaches with sling reinforcing+ 12-15 marines) which can hit right after 6 min, cannon/ 8 pool (before your 1st marine), 2 hatch mass +1 ling/ heavy 4 gate (toss 3 stalker rushes 5ish, rest of army hits 6 min.)
The 8 gate feeder build is still safe. You have sentrys. If they move up you split the arme with 2 good FF (2 becous 2v2 maps have bigger ramp =P)
And then you pick off halft the armey. you can still make units from gateways before they are warpgates.
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A lot of the top masters I've played with go 10p speed with Z , gas first helions into banshee with T. Dunno why but they rarely seem to play protoss. They also never seem to expand ^^ The 4.30 rush 12p11g with marine support is pretty popular at the moment.
Personally with randoms I usually do slow expo unless they woke up with a plan. If they have a plan I usually just go along with it. Please never say rush am so sick of these people, SAY THE TIME YOUR TIMING HITS =)
In one of my teams I let my T ally defend with marines, bunkers & tanks. I play nexus first into double robo since my macro is stronger than his. However some maps vs certain teams you just gotta go for the one base play. But when I go greedy like this I scout extra hard 9pylon scout and willing to change my mind if I see something.
Don't forget to skype if you're arranged team, it's almost cheating ^^
I know you said eco builds but in my experience the higher you go the more they rush. Once I played some 4v4 with 3 of the top 20 2v2 players. They went 4 worker rush I mean they took 4 workers each and attacked with. We ended up in master league with that bs.
Team games rule I wish there was a real GSTL...oh the epic battles that would ensue ^^
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EPT
