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Hello guys.
This topic will come to help for our fellow Terrans who are struggling in TvP midgame aggression, and I am talking about the moments our medivacs our out, till the moment toss have managed to establish a strong composition with good AOE/upgrades, to come out and push us. These few minutes (around 9:30 to 14~ mins) are very crucial for Terran to have a good aggression to cripple toss eco or tech and to be able to get ahead and "stimroll" the toss later on.
(For those of you who are disagree about what I said, can feel free to read blizzard last balance post, about the current state of TvP, in their eyes, and in many pro Terrans' eyes)
However, this is not gonna be a balance thread, and I’m not gonna discuss timings about what race is stronger or what race is weaker.
Last note before I start, I would like to add and say, that this thread gonna discuss about a standard game tactics, discussing about a normal game with 1 rax FE vs. 1 gate FE with normal 3 rax with stim, medivacs and +1 timing.
The floating factory!
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/a3/Factory.png/247px-Factory.png)
Many Terrans are really underestimate how important the flying factory with the Terran first aggression.
First of all, on a standard game, as soon as the factory finishing the reactor for the starport, it should be lifted and used as our map control tool, the timing should be just right to be able to scout any 6-8 gate, 2 base aggression, and will be a huge deal in helping us holding it. landing it near our bunker, creating a narrow choke and also ruining the Protoss AI with a 1250 HP builds, is a huge deal - Any strong gateway push, will must have a good number of zealots, and the factory is their biggest nightmare!
Now let’s talk a little about how the floating fact can be used for aggression.
1. First of all, the obvious answer - It’s a free scout, no scan, and not even 1 stimmed marines is needed to get us the info we need, about if we can engage or not, or maybe, engage from where...?
2. As I mentioned about using the fact as a great tank defensively, it can be used anywhere as offensively tank - if you scouted, that the toss went for a really greedy build, and his army is weak. Just land the factory and engage near it. Remember that every bit of HP that factory will take in this battle, will be a bit of less damage done to your army.
3. Terran forcefield! :D hell yeah!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/65oBk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i49.tinypic.com/1g4y2g.jpg)
The double prone drop attack
the main idea of it, is a 4-3 medivac drop, which should be timed very well together with a land on his main base to force his army going back from his natural, and then the second land on his natural mineral line.
There was a time, when that was my most standard aggression poke vs. toss, but as I progressed and met better and better toss players till top master, I can honestly say, that I find it as much as an auto win vs. toss who can’t multitask, and useless tactic vs. a toss who actually can multitask and have pylons/observers on obvious drops paths.
I'll also add that a double prong attack, will usually require 4-3 medivacs to be efficient and that’s more time for the toss to get stronger and smell what’s going on.
Not that I’m saying that multi prong drops are a wrong choice by any mean, and I actually do think that this is the way TvP should be played - the more the toss spread out, the more the Terran need to abuse it, and take fights with small groups, where he’s strongest.
I just think that as a "First aggression poke after 10 min of macroing" the 2 prong drops hits a bit later, and relaying on the fact that the toss won’t "find out" about it and will be able to have a decent multitask.
Frontal engagement with a drop
probably the most popular Terran aggression, this tactic is including the usage of a drop, but not necessary as a harassment tool.
It's a lot about using a drop to abuse map cliffs/walls vs. zealots, and render effectiveness of forcefields, as they are the toss "best friend" on that state of the game.
![[image loading]](http://i46.tinypic.com/4j1634.jpg)
It’s up to you to choose if u want to have most of your army dropping and rest on the low ground, or u rather just send 1 drop to the cliff, and the bigger "meat of your army" on the low ground.
Remember that it require some kind of an battle multitasking, because u do require to micro 2 part of your army potentially on the same engagements. Don’t forget, that u also have a great harass potential with the drop in his base.
Ok guys, that's it for now, feel free to add more ideas and help me improve this thread and our TvP game in general :D.
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I don't lift the factory and use it because I want ghost in the late game. What do I do about this?
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On May 22 2012 06:30 EneMecH wrote:
I don't lift the factory and use it because I want ghost in the late game. What do I do about this?
...What?
I don't understand. You need a Barracks to make a Ghost Academy, and a techlab Barracks to make a Ghost. Are you talking about Nukes?
I personally use my Factory to make add-ons for future Starports and so I don't have to rebuild it in order to build Nukes and more Starports.
To OP: There was a thread a while ago about TvP mid-game aggression, I can't find it though for some reason. It had a similar goal to your thread, and had pretty good diagrams.
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United States8477 Posts
On May 22 2012 06:30 EneMecH wrote:
I don't lift the factory and use it because I want ghost in the late game. What do I do about this?
You only need the factory for nukes, not ghosts.
Also, changed the OP to TvP instead of Terran for clarification. Also, you should probably resize your images.
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No1 said u need to suicide your factory w/o any mean. and hell - think about it.
1.You scout his front with the factory - means it'll take more damage the more anti air he has their - meaning his main base his free to be droped with less anti-air there to snipe drops.
2. If u did enter into a frontal engament with the factory - and you did lose it - meaning the the toss just wasted 1250 damage output on your factory - meaning you should be able to finihs the game right there.
NrGmonk, i noticed it, and cant really find where i change the op. but tnx for the notes.
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I don't like using my factory for scouting because it ineviatbly dies and then when i scout he has 4 colo and no templar tech in sight, I want a second starport but now I need to build another factory QQ. Is there a way to get around this?
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Ihve seen this in alot of TvPs, and you bring up a bunch of points I havnt thought about really, any advice on how to control it, group it to 3 maybe since you usually dont have ghosts yet?
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United States8477 Posts
On May 22 2012 06:42 dohgg wrote:
No1 said u need to suicide your factory w/o any mean. and hell - think about it.
1.You scout his front with the factory - means it'll take more damage the more anti air he has their - meaning his main base his free to be droped with less anti-air there to snipe drops.
2. If u did enter into a frontal engament with the factory - and you did lose it - meaning the the toss just wasted 1250 damage output on your factory - meaning you should be able to finihs the game right there.
NrGmonk, i noticed it, and cant really find where i change the op. but tnx for the notes.
You don't see the edit button at the top right of your screen?
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On May 22 2012 06:56 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 06:42 dohgg wrote:
No1 said u need to suicide your factory w/o any mean. and hell - think about it.
1.You scout his front with the factory - means it'll take more damage the more anti air he has their - meaning his main base his free to be droped with less anti-air there to snipe drops.
2. If u did enter into a frontal engament with the factory - and you did lose it - meaning the the toss just wasted 1250 damage output on your factory - meaning you should be able to finihs the game right there.
NrGmonk, i noticed it, and cant really find where i change the op. but tnx for the notes. You don't see the edit button at the top right of your screen?
It's the top right of his post, not his screen. You might want to edit that, it could confuse people.
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I do see the edit button, but on the edit screen theres no option to edit "Title" anyway, i dont think we should discuss "editing thread... etc" right now, some things can be issued with pm.
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Oh..... I really really thought you needed the factory for ghosts...
Thanks
Still won't do it probably since I add more starports in the lategame
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Oh! This will surely fix my TvP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANKS MATE!!!!!!!!!!!
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I think this is a great tip and nice post, but it's very situational and will not always work out. You should go ahead and use it whenever you get the opportunity, but don't count on it because it could easily not work out.
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Can people, at the very least, spell check the title of their OP?
Well presented guide but the misspelling really takes away your credibility.
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+ Show Spoiler +I do see the edit button, but on the edit screen theres no option to edit "Title" anyway, i dont think we should discuss "editing thread... etc" right now, some things can be issued with pm. Yep. I had trouble finding it as well. Play nice, please.
I think the idea of utilizing the factory to its fullest potential is spot-on - its the kind of thinking we (Terrans) need to be doing to progress the match-up. I've seen numerous pros use it for scouting, but only slightly less use it as, how you say, a 'terran forcefield'. I believe though that the protoss' forcefield pushes away what is underneath it, while the factory can't land on-top of units/buildings, so this takes some planning, luck, and micro for it to be effective. These three prerequisites may seem to be the same prerequisites as the 2-pronged drop - more of a gimmick that works until they understand how Terran's can use the factory and terrain.
Exactly what kind of pressure should be applied to the protoss to utilize the terran's 'advantage' in the five minute-long mid-game? What does this objectively do to the protoss that presents a more even playingfield for terran late-game?
I understand that this concept is similar to TvZ (damage Zerg or get over-run by innate superior macro mechanics), but I also understand the apparent implications of damaging Zerg early-mid game - Zerg has less drones and more units; they can't make both economy and army at once.
So, maybe more importantly than the factory use (unless this is the advantage Blizzard is talking about), maybe Terrans need to know what they are trying to accomplish during the 5-minute advantage so that they can invent strategies to create that scenario for the late-game. Is the factory going to give Terran that scenario for the late-game that they are looking for, or is there some other thing that needs to be done?
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Post have been edited for spell checking, tnx to Killcycle for his help!
I think many people including you nightcrawler have considered the usage of a floating factory with the agression, as an actually "game changing" solution, or you just were looking for a game changing solution, and then just "LOLed" after i stated the option of mixing a factory.
Lets make it as simple as i can, A factory is an 1250 HP 1 armor "UNIT" that does not attack, but does considered as an enemy by the prottos AI. Every 1 HP of damage done to it, during a battle will be less 1 HP of damage done to your bio units.
This is not a game changing tactic - it is only a nice lilttle advantage that can be quite useful in an engagement.
Theres NO game changing solution - You, as a terran, on 10-13 min mark must be creative with your own mind and by judging with your own view (by the help that the factory might give you) on the state of his army compaired to the stats of your army, if you should engage, where or how... i just gave you a few tools, few strategies that might open a few windows for you.
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On May 22 2012 16:37 nightcrawler11 wrote:
Exactly what kind of pressure should be applied to the protoss to utilize the terran's 'advantage' in the five minute-long mid-game? What does this objectively do to the protoss that presents a more even playingfield for terran late-game?
I understand that this concept is similar to TvZ (damage Zerg or get over-run by innate superior macro mechanics), but I also understand the apparent implications of damaging Zerg early-mid game - Zerg has less drones and more units; they can't make both economy and army at once.
So, maybe more importantly than the factory use (unless this is the advantage Blizzard is talking about), maybe Terrans need to know what they are trying to accomplish during the 5-minute advantage so that they can invent strategies to create that scenario for the late-game. Is the factory going to give Terran that scenario for the late-game that they are looking for, or is there some other thing that needs to be done?
Theres no simple answer. it all depends on how greedy the toss was - because the greedier he opened (Fast upgrdes/Quicker 3rd then you) will require a bigger punishment by you (Considered you open 1 rax FE standard play)
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For those who are afraid of loosing the factory and cant build any more starports: you can just use it as a scout for allins and for mapcontrol before your medivacs are out. At this time it doesnt matter if it dies because then he will doing an allin and you wont need a 2nd starport. Or you can just use it to scout the timing of his 3rd base without loosing it.
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Or land on 3rd with factory and make an add on, fly away to get back map control !!!
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xTrim, I had never thought about dropping the add-on - I usually just left my factory there and had it destroyed by zealots - now I can by a little bit more time.
Dohgg - I agree that the factory use is a step in the right direction; just curious to see if there was a follow-up.
What should be the number one goal during the midgame - what must Terran do to limit the late game advantage for Protoss? Push up the ramp to snipe bits of army/ gas intensive units? Snipe tech structures? Deny third? Kill probes? Take a 3rd? A 4th? Tech-up? Build Planetaries? What should Terran do with the 5 minutes of map control (Assuming protoss is moving with a third to high templar tech, still has colossus during midgame, stalkers in-base to deny drops). If we must continue building more/better bio units, then what do we do in the midgame with those bio units? Is it really worth potentially losing your entire army/ getting warp prism dropped to damage the toss army while their behind a ramp and forcefields? Can Terran just outright win with a push up the ramp in the midgame - if so, why?
What is going to hurt the protoss the most going into the lategame?
I suppose this isn't a discussion thread, so I might need to take my questions elsewhere.
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EPT
