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Pick Your Power: Redux
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
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deconduo
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deconduo
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On May 10 2012 22:52 GMarshal wrote: No pregame claims please. Sorry bout that  | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
I'm picking [1,1] and I'm gonna take godfather if I'm unopposed. Why? The main reason is thatl it denies mafia (and SK) a pretty powerful role, and means that any DT checks become a lot more reliable. I also wanted to play an unusual class this time. But what if I'm scum? Well the power of the godfather role arises from the fact that town don't know who has it. Any clean DT check is unreliable, and any lynch could give mafia a free kill. However if town knows exactly who the godfather is, nearly all of the role's power is negated. Its a win/win either way. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:36 risk.nuke wrote: If you're scum nothing stops you from picking another role secretly and let one of your buddies pick gf later. But I like this plan. Mainly because I think you're town due to if you were scum you would had actually thought it through and realised that. Oh yeah, I forgot about dropping roles down. I'll try to think of a way to compensate for that, maybe a check on me first night? Though with a possible framer as well it gets annoying. My hope was to have the framer as the only possible way for scum to fuck with DT checks. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:42 sandroba wrote: @decon I'd rather you picked other numbers and let luck decide who takes GF at 1. I agree that it loses power if you know where it is, but it doesn't necessarily has to be you. It's safer that way, I'm sure you agree. Given that mafia could drop the role down, I'm more inclined to stick to my position. I know I'm town, and by taking GF I know for certain it will be denied. It also means that if mafia do want to get the #1 spot, they are forced to openly oppose me by picking [1,1] | ||
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deconduo
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deconduo
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deconduo
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deconduo
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1. CPR 2. Janitor 3. RNG CPR Janitor 4+ Pick whatever Is there anyone who does not agree with this plan? For the remaining roles, here are my thoughts. Mostly just general guidelines, not a 'pick this role' kinda thing. Anyone think differently? Strong town and mafia roles. People high in the list should pick these as it both gives town good roles and denies mafia them: Vigilante*, Angry Vigilante*, Day Vigilante*, Role blocker, Copy Cat Strong town roles that should be picked if possible: Role Cop, Parity Cop, Bullet Bill, Veteran, Doctor, Mason, Jack Of All Trades Badtown roles, pick something better if possible: Witch, Jailkeeper, Hider, Tracker Mafia roles, anyone rolechecked with these should be lynched: Godfather, Traitor, Pardoner, Politician, Framer *Townies with KP roles should use them as sparingly as possible, and only when absolutely sure. Trigger happy vigilantes are a surefire way to give mafia an unnecessary advantage. blah | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote: Deconduo, I disagree with using a tiering system (labeling specific roles as picks people high in the list should consider). Any particular reason why? I purposely left it as loose as possible, but I do think that KP roles should have a higher priority as you have the double benefit of denying mafia the roles. On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote: And I definitely disagree with you that Witch, Jailkeeper, and Hider are bad roles. Hider is probably the best defensive role out there because you are completely immune to night kills as long as you are hiding behind a low priority kill target. Personally, I think it is much stronger than Veteran. Witch and Jailkeeper are 2 of our 4 protection roles (along with Doctor and JOAT). Its just the way I feel about it, I'm open to debate on the matter. I feel that jailkeeper is just a gimped roleblocker/doctor. If you want to RB someone scummy, you also protect them. If you want to medic an important townie, you also roleblock them. Why would you take jailkeeper over either doctor or roleblocker? Hider is a pure gamblers role, pick wrong and you give scum a free kill. With Veteran there's no such risk, its a much safer defensive role, if a little weaker overall. Witch I'm unsure about, it basically reduces scum KP by 1 for a night. Is that a better option compared to other defensive or detective roles? I don't think a one shot power makes it worth it, where all other defensive roles are reusable. On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote: Why on earth are you trying to take them out of play? Both of them are better selections for most town players than something like Roleblocker for example. Interesting that you bring up roleblocker. That's one of the roles I was unsure about, and was tempted to drop it down to mafia only. I'm not sure about the town benefits. Does the roleblocker block the inherent mafia/SK night hits? On May 16 2012 03:22 Qatol wrote: I only partially disagree that Framers should be lynched if checked. I think Framer is a decent denial selection for a townie. However, I think this role has to come with a caveat: if you get it, you have to claim it. Yes, if you pick any of the mafia only roles from a denial point of view, you have to claim straight away. | ||
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deconduo
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On May 16 2012 06:51 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Hmm.... that and GMarshal's clarification seems to take angry vig down a notch. Although Hider and Witch aren't exactly prime roles, it's still something to consider. I think jailkeeper would be odd though in the early game. Since generally you'd have a greater chance of blocking a blue than a red until we have a good picture of who everyone is. It's like shooting someone in the foot and then patching up the wound. The flip side to this is being able to roleblock the SK's bulletproof and having vigs/CPR/mafia take him out. Nope, cos jailing them protects them as well. | ||
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deconduo
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On May 16 2012 05:40 Qatol wrote: Deconduo, I don't like the idea of a tiering system because I don't want people locked into the idea of "X role isn't good enough to be picked this early" or "X role is too good to be picked this late." Such a system results in CPR Doctor being picked at 20, Meth Man making it to 16, and Copycat slipping down to 24 (all from Pick Your Power Insane). I know it will still happen to a certain extent, but I want to minimize it. If it's a good role, I want to see it in the game and I want to see it in the hands of someone who is comfortable using it. That should also keep interest and activity levels higher for the town. I realize that you left things relatively open, but I think any sort of tiering system will push people into this mindset more than I'd like to see. Surely having a tiered system increases the chances of good roles being in the game, not the other way around? It encourages people to pick the better, town favoured roles. On May 16 2012 05:40 Qatol wrote: Jailkeeper in particular synergizes well with CPR doctor. Generally, it's an extra doctor, but it also has the benefit of denying the use of roles you don't want to see used anyways. Alternatively, we can use it as a second roleblocker. You would take it instead of roleblocker or doctor because you think the other role is being picked or just because you want to give the game a little more flexibility. Hider is a gamber's role, but only to a certain extent. Notice that Hider does not die if he hides behind mafia any more. This means that you just have to think about the players you think the mafia/SK are unlikely to hit. The biggest benefit of Witch isn't that it reduces KP, but that it definitely automatically gives a free blocked hit. This alone makes it stronger than Veteran unless someone is silly enough to shoot the Veteran twice but not on consecutive nights. It may also be stronger than Doctor because of how hard it is to block a hit in the first place. The fact that the witch and hider block any KP, not just one, does increase their potential value. I still think jailkeeper is bad however. On May 16 2012 05:40 Qatol wrote: I disagree about claiming a denial role straight away. Claim it only after the Copy Cat has been decided. We don't want to give the mafia ideas about other players to shoot and grab good roles. Good point. | ||
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deconduo
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On May 16 2012 07:23 slOosh wrote: Hider is strong because you are saving yourself (unlike medic) and its infinite KP proof (unlike vet). Getting stacked is highly unlikely given the setup, and the angry vig only has one shot. The chance of dying by hiding behind the wrong person far outweighs this benefit imo. I would take vet over hider any time. | ||
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deconduo
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On May 16 2012 07:41 Toadesstern wrote: you can't die by hiding behind the wrong person, unless you are talking about hiding behind someone who's going to die very early making your protection vanish. But yeah I agree I'd choose vet over Hider as well. I think you misunderstand the hider role. If I hide behind X and someone shoots X, we both die. | ||
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deconduo
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On May 16 2012 18:54 marvellosity wrote: Shit, now I'm going to have to read back why 3rd is supposed to be RNGing. Anyone care to summarise? CPR and Janitor are probably the most dangerous mafia roles, so we want to know exactly where they are and who has them. This is why we assigned them to #1 and #2 picks. This is fine if town are #1 and #2, but if there is a mafia there, they can claim they picked CPR/janitor, when in reality they picked some other good mafia role, and had a teammate who is at the bottom of the draft pick CPR/janitor instead. This way they get 2 strong roles instead of 1 strong 1 weak. However if you claim you will RNG between CPR/janitor then its a huge risk for mafia to drop down a role. They have a 50/50 chance of both getting killed AND losing the pick, being left with a man down and another with a vanilla pick. It keeps them honest and stops them from dropping strong roles down the draft list. | ||
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deconduo
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On May 16 2012 20:13 risk.nuke wrote: So many plans, I'm going to think on this. I may or may not follow them. I may or may not tell you if I decide to follow them. Honestly though, your arguments arent nearly as persuasive as you think they are. We had agreed on a plan. There was plenty of opportunity to voice any objections to it before the draft list was revealed. On May 16 2012 02:03 deconduo wrote: Is there anyone who does not agree with this plan? On May 15 2012 11:37 Qatol wrote: If anyone has reservations about assigning the roles as we are discussing, please bring them forward now. It was also mentioned that there would be no changing after the draft was revealed. On May 15 2012 06:16 deconduo wrote: If we do decide to go with set picks, we need to have a solid decision before the draft order goes through. Mafia will change their preferences based on what positions they get so we can't have any more discussion once the order is revealed. On May 15 2012 07:52 Qatol wrote: I also agree that the assigned picks shouldn't be changed after the draft order is announced. And yet you come out of nowhere saying you might not follow the plan, and you give no reasoning behind it. It looks a lot like a scum wanting to be able to use janitor without having any consequences. 'Oh janitor was used? I didn't like the plan so I didn't take it, it wasn't me.' On May 16 2012 20:41 Barundar wrote: decon has definitely agreed to the plan, so why would he ask this? Could be to try and passively push the plan (that he hasn't really commented on) or role fish? Might be because my initial plan was to take GF, when I figured it was a bit stronger than it actually is. However its pretty obvious that I abandoned that plan ages ago, and agreed with the current one. No idea why he would bring it up again now. | ||
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deconduo
Ireland4122 Posts
On May 16 2012 22:56 Qatol wrote: What two pro-town roles would you like to see taken for sure by someone in the queue? These can be roles you are considering taking yourself. The point is you want to see this role in the game for sure and you think there is a chance the role will be passed over entirely. As has been mentioned, BB is probably the strongest DT role we have and often gets underestimated imo. Mason is nice as it gives a 100% confirmed town, something that no other role can do. Also the power of two good towns in communication is huge. Given that sandroba has asked to take it, I don't think anyone should oppose him. On May 16 2012 22:56 Qatol wrote: What two roles do you think the mafia/SK want to grab early? These can be roles which will help the town a ton which you think the mafia/SK will try to deny or these can be roles which you think will help the mafia/SK significantly. These can still be roles you are considering taking yourself. As mafia I would prioritize KP roles. Trying to kill off town as soon as possible would be the goal. I might try to deny BB/rolecop/JOAT as well, but that would be less important. Vig roles for those high in the draft. As SK I would take JOAT/traitor if high up in the draft. These roles either give a large amount of flexibility, especially when paired with the night kill and extra life. Lower down the draft I would go for vet or politician. Vet gives more survivability when the biggest risk for SK is getting killed by mafia, especially as SK is immune to BB. Politician makes winning much easier and safer if the SK gets to endgame, but has a bigger risk if rolechecked. | ||
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deconduo
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deconduo
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On May 17 2012 01:07 Toadesstern wrote: exactly. If #3 is something other than VT we lynch into #1 or #2, depending on wether the coinflip made him pick CPR or janitor. So again, I really don't have a problem with talking about why traitor is a possibilty for both you and Risk, because we've got shitloads of reasons for you not to pick that will get both of you instalynched if you decide not to stick with the plan :p Yeah and so the only reasons for risk not to want the plan to succeed are: -He's town that wants to take traitor safely -He's scum that wants to be able to use janitor without getting lynched -He's SK that wants a better role than janitor | ||
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