|
Hey guys,
i just played a normal ladder game where i, as usual, go for 1rax FE in TvZ.
http://drop.sc/157986
I scanned his banelingnest prepared somewhat accordingly and defended his attacks two times with not that much loses (i think it was okish?).
But he expanded behind/after that just alot and i was not able to deny him to do this.
I was very very far ahead in upgrades all the game 2/1 in for his units in the end. But cause he banked soooo much minerals it did not matter.
As I am new to this strategy I do not know what to do in this szenario.
Should i expand that often, too?
Certainly i scouted his bases a bit too late so i dropped his main instead of these bases but i don't feel like that would have made any difference.
I would really love to see some advice and even if you point out little things, it will help me improve.
About me: I'M high Diamond terran, playing masters on ladder.
Thanks alot!
Edit: Alright i watched it again my hold wasn't that good ( baneling into scvs :/)... what to do better (:
|
I recommend cc before rax. Zerg can't really do anything to you just like you are doing 1 rax expand but you'll gain way more economy than doing 1 rax expand. Really good on medium to large map. high diamond terran here too.
|
Thanks for your try to help me but that would not solve any problems i have in that replay.
|
why don't you open reactor hellion? Not to be someone who wish to ruin your thoughts, today I've got promoted to masters, I mech on Tvz, why do you sacrifice all the control you could have for the map to 1 rax fe? To be greedy? If you wish to be greedy you could do it safely, and safely means you have hellions for map control to see whatever he is throwing at you (you will just get a third oc lately).
Also scout with a rax. You first get the orbital command off 1 rax then throw away your advantage by scanning?
Will take a look later for the replay.
|
On April 12 2012 02:35 Sergio1992 wrote:
why don't you open reactor hellion? Not to be someone who wish to ruin your thoughts, today I've got promoted to masters, I mech on Tvz, why do you sacrifice all the control you could have for the map to 1 rax fe? To be greedy? If you wish to be greedy you could do it safely, and safely means you have hellions for map control to see whatever he is throwing at you (you will just get a third oc lately).
Also scout with a rax. You first get the orbital command off 1 rax then throw away your advantage by scanning?
Will take a look later for the replay.
Okay, don't offer advice without watching the replay. He did a reactor hellion expand with 17 gas. Which is fine right? The hellions still serve their purpose but he gets his CC sooner.
To OP. Those busts where incredibly effective. You gave up your natural for nothing and then lost a bunch of SVCs. No shit you lost.
As for what you can do better;
1- Put more bunkers DIRECTLY behind the Supply depots. Makes it harder to bust.
2- Don't ever give up your second mining base unless you are forced too. How did you plan to take it back after you lifted off? Did you not think it would put you behind?
3- Cant loose those hellions, gotta keep a better eye on them.
4- Your build is the biggest reason you lost. Too much tech. Is that even a build? I know a similar build, but I don't get double ebays on 2 bases, I get them after my third. You can get a away with one maybe, but it delays your tanks. You said you saw the banes nest Its like you are blind countering the quick 1 1 ling infestor build. Think what would have happened if you went 4 hellions into tanks? You could probably have held that easily, as tanks destroy banes. Busts like those are very all-inish as in if they don't do enough damage the Zerg is gonna be behind. If you can completley nullify those busts you can probably counter push later with a big army and win the game.
|
On April 12 2012 02:49 TheTomato wrote:
1- Put more bunkers DIRECTLY behind the Supply depots. Makes it harder to bust.
2- Don't ever give up your second mining base unless you are forced too. How did you plan to take it back after you lifted off? Did you not think it would put you behind?
3- Cant loose those hellions, gotta keep a better eye on them.
4- Your build is the biggest reason you lost. Too much tech. Is that even a build? I know a similar build, but I don't get double ebays on 2 bases, I get them after my third. You can get a away with one maybe, but it delays your tanks. You said you saw the banes nest Its like you are blind countering the quick 1 1 ling infestor build. Think what would have happened if you went 4 hellions into tanks? You could probably have held that easily, as tanks destroy banes. Busts like those are very all-inish as in if they don't do enough damage the Zerg is gonna be behind. If you can completley nullify those busts you can probably counter push later with a big army and win the game.
I agree with 1, I think 2 is debate-able, 3 is obvious, and 4 is kind of right
1. You should be using bunkers as part of your wall in addition to being a defensive structure, not as a defense structure only. What I mean by this is that baneling busts are meant to break a hole so that mass ling can clean everything up. By putting your bunkers in the middle and on the sides, zerg isn't forced to engage them, and they should be.
2. I see a lot of people retreat to the main, I think your decision wasn't a poor one. You would have lost way more if you continued to mine at your natural.
3. I would put the hellions at 1 of 3 places. In front of his ramp, at the watch tower, or inside your base. They actually serve no helpful purpose being in front of your ramp. I could go into this in more detail, but I don't think it's too important to the replay. Just fyi, if you don't have the apm to constantly watch them, leaving them in a place that requires good reaction is obviously a bad choice. Inside your base is the easiest, at the watch tower is second best option.
4. If you're going for a greedy opening (1rax gasless fe) then you need to play defense. You should assume that zerg is more than capable of scouting the fe and trying to punish it. There are 2 ways to break a terran early game, either ling bling, roachs, or some combination of the two. The counter to both, as mentioned, is tanks. You got 4 hellions out of the factory but then didn't really need it. The reactor was going to the starport, and the factory was going to start tanks anyway.
Solution: I think after you get 4 hellions, you should lift the factory and go straight for tech lab-siege tanks+seige mode, and put the tanks on that high ground ledge to give you maximum vision and firing range to give you extra defense against early game busts. If you don't have the money to go straight for reactored starport that early in the game(since the reactor is free), I think you can easily put a rax on it. You can get the starport a little earlier than you are getting this game, and build the reactor straight on it when it's done. This way, you'll still be ready to produce medivacs 2 at a time when the reactor is done, and you don't need the reactor from the factory.
As a side note though, yea, your build is a little off. Your gas timings don't seem to be crisp. I didn't pay super close attention though, maybe you know something about the build that I don't.
|
Helions wasted is a big reason for los. Park them before the base, don't let the drone for the 3rd pass and let him waste his lings on them. Build also more of them if you see bane nest. Every ling you kill is a bane not made.
Actually the idleness of the fac was the main reason. You either Make Hellions non stop or you switch techlab and make tanks with siege. Both of this would probably saved you.
|
Hey bud, I'm a master league terran player. Stopped watching at 12mins as the game is over at this point. Kudos for playing it out but it's GG when he gets you down to a dozen workers and is on three bases.
Very frustrating replay to watch. You see the build coming. Build TWO walls, and still get busted. My thoughts:
Letting the third hatchery go down is a big time mistake. If you can't run up his ramp with the hellions, you have to just camp the exit. This is true with early hellion play in general. Either you are going to suicide in to kill as many drones as possible. I think about 1 drone kill per hellion is your break even point with that, potentially even less. Or else you are just patrolling back and forth outside his base to deny tumors and expansions. The attack hits before his third finishes so this doesn't end up impacting the game.
I don't do this FE build but when I see others do it they always build a barracks thick wall. This replay shows why. Supply depots and bunkers just don't punish banelings. As we saw, dumping banes into depots and bunkers is apparently a perfectly cost effective thing to do. You even lifted your CC up in anticipation of the attack and still can't hold it. Lesson is, there's no small min/max thing that will hold this attack. You need a barracks thick wall and that's that.
It is possible to have siege mode out by the time this attack hits. That would have changed the game at least somewhat. But really there just needs to be some higher HP buildings down there.
GL
edit:
I read other replies in this thread and they are not good.
Losing the hellions is standard. Unfortunate, but standard. If winning this match revolves around you saving those 4 hellions (it doesn't) then you will lose quite a bit my friend. Pros lose hellions in that situation ALL the time.
Bunker behind the depot is NOT correct, it will take extra splash damage. Potentially if you had 4 marines in there it would kill more banes before they got to the wall but the 4 marines will have the same total attack time regardless of their positioning so that is STILL not logical. You even pull all but 1 marine from the bunker, knowing he will dump banes into it regardless of how many marines are inside. You play this scenario almost perfectly and still get busted. That is why nitpicking is useless here. The flaw is in the wall. The wall was destroyed by banelings. Therefore you need a stronger wall. Don't overthink it. Watch pros do this build you will see barracks thick walls all the time.
Lifting the CC is questionable, but knowing what we know now was actually 100% correct. It would only be correct to stay down there if we can hold the attack. Which we can't. Keeping it down there would have only resulted in losing more SCVs.
GL again 
don't overthink it just make the wall stronger
|
Wow so much helpfull feedback from all of you guys! thanks alot!
I think i have to explain some things:
First:
Hellion wasting.
I am normally not the man who loses these hellions like i did and not using them to deny his creep spread etc.
Normally I even kill 2 queens and some zerglings and vs week zergs i can hold them on two bases till 11min sometimes.
I did not do that cause I saw the baneling nest and i knew there would be alot of zerglings out which can easily take out these hellions so i though i save them.
Tbh afer thinking that and pulling them back i was just so busy preparing for the bust that i forgot about them.
But given the number of zerglings he had i maybe would have killed 10 or 15 at most and even then that requires constant micro as you all know which could result in not getting enough bunkers up etc.
After that bust he still had 43 lings left over which could have, if he attacked directly, killed me instantly, even with 30 lings he would have had no problem. So i think yomi is right that that's not the fault.
Yes i could have delayed the expo by about 30 to 40 seconds with my hellions before losing them to the amount of zerglings but that would have not really changed the pace of the game, would it?
2. Bunker placement
I did put them behind the wall a few days ago and after reading alot about how to hold busts like that i have gotten a pretty good idea that this is bad cause they get splashed (as yomi said) while busting the depots anyway. Placing them like they were there he had to wast extra benligns solely for the bunkers which is a bad trade for him.
3. Factory Usage / Not- Usage
I know that the factory was idle for quite some time. The build i use is from tslpolt which was even dealt with in a newbie tuesday of last week. I got the replay and copied the timings.
I am just not that familiar with this timing but thought about getting 2 less hellions out early and i might just do it to get earlier tanks with siege mode, which will require a 3rd gas earlier i think?
The first goal of the build is to get an expo building at around 9:30 while pushing out with 2 medivacs and some marines, behind that take the expo and join the taskforce with another 2 medivacs and some marines which by then have at least 1/1.
This build really shines in my experiences especially by that push at that time, cause the zerg does not expect it and you can do tons and tons of damage and just lift up. If he teched to mutalisks and is just getting them out you can simply kill him right there without any problems.
I fear now that if i get my tanks up earlier i will delay the push by like 20 - 30 seconds which will make it useless cause then there are mutalisks and i cannot pick up and leave when the zergling numbers are too high + the mutalisks do overall enough dmg to crush the attack (yeah mutalisks doing dmg... i know^^).
Same is with that barracks placement for a walloff. That was the first thing i tried to adjust and build 4 rax to leave out the reactors. The problem is that you suddenly send 600 minerals instead of 400 + 100 gas + start marine production alot earlier which eats in your minerals even more. This in itself delays the push by alot and i cannot just build those rax "just in case" cause if he macros and takes a very fast 3rd or techs fast i want to punish him.
Allin All to point 3: I try to figure a solution out how to hold those busts without delaying that push ever. Will try tankproduction instead of 2 more hellions and see how that works out. I have no idea how to get those rax in there without delaying that push by quite some time.
4) Why do I use this build and don't go for reactor hellion expand?
I used to do the reactor hellion expand by polt with his medivac push at around the same time. But i have 2 things that i do not like about that:
- very late upgrades
- realtivly week push requires more micro to be effective and every second which it is delayed it's less effective cause you have so few marines anyway.
So that's what the 1rax fe got me: faster upgrades, realtivly stronger push.
If you are interested in watching how it works out of i don't get busted:
http://drop.sc/158077
And this situation in the replay is exactly why i do not want to delay the push cause this kinda super greedyness (and even only a superfast third) gets punished superquick.
Thanks again for all your helpfull feedback i really appreaciate it and hope that we can maybe discuss how to make this build bust-proved without giving up on the 9:20-9:30 attack and upgrades.
Thanks alot! (:
Edit: I'm messing around with the build right now and there is alot ( that means like 250 gas missing around the times my medivacs get out) so i guess that i get a 3rd gas by the time i swap my factory and see how that works out.
Is there a tool out there with what i can see when exactly i need to get this geyser up and running to have enough gas?
2nd edit:
Ok i got some benchmarks now (will edit when i try out more):
I had at 8:50 7 marines ( but i got late 2nd and 3rd rax) and my hellions.
with that clean benchmark i have the same amount of marines and 2 medivacs and 1 tank with siege mode, seems to work. I guess if i macroed properly i could have gotten out like 4-5 more marines by that time with the "old" expand. but tank with siege mode is preferable.
The problem i run into now is the following:
First:
I cannot produce till 10 min out of everything. -> This is sort of the biggest thing cause i have not enough minerals to get 5 marines at a time, tanks and those 4 initial medivacs + upgrades. but i feel like i need those 3 rax with 2 reactors to be ablel to spread out to protect vs mutalisks. Also i had 2 more bunkers up so 200 minerals extra which i have to pump into gas now i think.
Does it make sense to stop tankproduction after 3 or 4 for a little while to add more rax while still pumping marines?
I am on 3rax till 12:30min in the game without haveing overmins or being supplyblocked, which means i get less marines out which makes dropplay more risky.
next edit:
after i tryed around some things i think that 4 rax without addons is possibly but at the cost of 2 hellions.
Also i can absolutly not produce tanks constantly and have to cut marines / worker to get to enough minerals to build my 3rd + armory which comes relativly fluently without changes.
I do not need more rax till around 12-13minutes even without tankproduction. If i take my third around 12minutes + flytime and get both gas immediatly i am exactly able to get 3/3 started directly after 2/2. I will get some more stats tomorrow and make some sort of a table if anyone is insterested.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
