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I have always regarded interesting matchups to be versus protoss and zerg and not when it comes to TvT . However since I have decided to stick with terran and want to learn not to dodge TvT . What can a newbie in the TvT matchup do besides opening 1 Fact Fe in which you make a factory at 16 supply and Command center at 28 supply . So if I decided to open it up what kind of options do I have at hand with this economical build I have in hand .
Despite having this extra resources at hand most of the time I found myself figuring what Can I do with this units I have in hand .By the time I figured I can try to gain some map control, usually my opponents will be able to lock me down with siege tanks and I usually some how screw up my early tanks which lead me to my demise.
Compared to TvP I know that I can continue pumping units and slowly gain map control inch by inch and with TvZ I can gain control by timing my pushes nicely provided I deflected most of the zerg's muta harassment . However for TvT in this case I am left with thinking how should I play this out ? Most of the time I will play safe getting the economical upper hand and My opponent see's this as a means of containing with early turrets and siege tanks surrounding my natural .
What can I do if I get contained ? Should I make more wraiths like Firebathero or Mass dropships and unload into the contain that is in front of me ? .Maybe I am suffering from the turtle syndrome due to my low proficiency in macro . I frequently found my self usually get outnumbered by my opponents unit but I do not lack in term's of strategy . So that is one area I have to work on my multitasking .
If you could point me to some basics TvT strategies and builds from great terran heroes like Xellos, Iloveoov and Goodfriend . I would really be indebted to you .Thank you .
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This would be much more appropriate in the Strat section
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well basicly you sit in your base until terran oponent gets bored attacks you and loses thats all theres in tvt strategy
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Um, you can also open 14CC, 1 rax CC, and BBS ?
I have given up SC a logn time ago so I can only say if your problem is getting outnumbered by opponent then you ought to try macroing harder. Also, use scans A LOT since they are free maphack and pretty much the only way to scout as Terran.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On February 01 2012 20:07 Sawamura wrote:
However since I have decided to stick with terran and want to learn not to dodge TvT.
I'd just like to applaud you for this. More people need to man up and play mirror MUs *cough* sGs C Ranks Open thread *cough*.
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dude u host like 300 fpvods. u can learn of ur fpprovods 
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On February 01 2012 20:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:dude u host like 300 fpvods. u can learn of ur fpprovods
I don't even know what the hell they are doing especially in TvT try looking at mind fpvods . I have a migraine after watching it for 10 minutes .
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For us to help you, we need something more concrete to work from. Post a link to a specific game.
Or how about these to start off from?
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/60661_Iris_vs_Sea/vod
This game is factory expand (sea) vs barrack expand (iris). Sea wins, and demonstrates several excellently microed siege line breaking manouvres.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/62191_Reality_vs_Ssak/vod
This game both players factory expand.
Trying to give some blanket advice;
If you both open factory expand, you shouldnt get contained. You must meet in the centre essentially.
If you get contained with mines, dont wait for wraiths and dropships. Use scan and tank/gol or tank/vult to clear the area.
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On February 01 2012 23:35 Miwyfe wrote:For us to help you, we need something more concrete to work from. Post a link to a specific game. Or how about these to start off from? http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/60661_Iris_vs_Sea/vodThis game is factory expand (sea) vs barrack expand (iris). Sea wins, and demonstrates several excellently microed siege line breaking manouvres. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/62191_Reality_vs_Ssak/vodThis game both players factory expand. Trying to give some blanket advice; If you both open factory expand, you shouldnt get contained. You must meet in the centre essentially. If you get contained with mines, dont wait for wraiths and dropships. Use scan and tank/gol or tank/vult to clear the area.
Thanks for this, Gathered some courage and advice from a fellow terran friend on TvT . In which if i want to commit an attack I should go all out well I did and in this game despite me opening with a 1 fact fe and manage to deflect a 2 fact vulture mine push . Here again I lost 6 of my initial tanks to two spider mine . There was a opening for me in the part of the game where I could have taken down my opponent third as there were no units that is guarding that place but I didn't because I couldn't find his third .
Opponent got greedy and confident since he had a third expo running he thought he could have squash me with the additional resources he had but he lost his initial tanks too when he tried to finish me . In the end I was way behind in the game in terms of resources and had to gg .
Now that I think of it I should have posted this in the strategy section
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/50282.jpg)
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well my biggest problem is mostly that I basically give my opponent the map, he can just place mines everywhere and deny any 3rd base because I never gain map control in the beginning.
So I just started using 2fac more often so that I can move freely and build an early 3rd base after adding 3 more facs and tanks. If you're FE'ing against a 2fac or something make sure your natural is walled with a bunker (1-2 marines in it) and the
barracks plus you're first 2-3 vults by the time he hits.
Then, as soon as you have tanks and comsat you have to push out and stop his vulture reign over the map 
(I'd build two comsats immediately) you should always have more facs than him at that point in this scenario (and maybe your 3rd base building while you're moving out ofc with a vulture safe wall if possible).
that's my D-lvl theories ... :D
hope it helps somewhat
edit: even tho I think I'm only D because I can not execute these theories at all :D
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Did he open 1 fact port or 2 fact?
1 fact port if he has wraith just mass up tank vults and you should be able to break the contain with pure numbers if you properly execute the attack.
2 fact tank vult contain I like to get 2 quick comsats and a quick starport for wraiths. Clear the mines and drive his floating building off with your wraith. Now you have the vision advantage, the most important thing in TvT, and should be able to kill his tanks off one by one or he has to reposition them.
Those are the most important things to know in TvT. Always attack his siege line from a 90 degree angle if possible, maintain vision advantage and know your tank range.
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On February 02 2012 18:32 onlinerobbe wrote:well my biggest problem is mostly that I basically give my opponent the map, he can just place mines everywhere and deny any 3rd base because I never gain map control in the beginning. So I just started using 2fac more often so that I can move freely and build an early 3rd base after adding 3 more facs and tanks. If you're FE'ing against a 2fac or something make sure your natural is walled with a bunker (1-2 marines in it) and the barracks plus you're first 2-3 vults by the time he hits. Then, as soon as you have tanks and comsat you have to push out and stop his vulture reign over the map (I'd build two comsats immediately) you should always have more facs than him at that point in this scenario (and maybe your 3rd base building while you're moving out ofc with a vulture safe wall if possible). that's my D-lvl theories ... :D hope it helps somewhat edit: even tho I think I'm only D because I can not execute these theories at all :D
The thing is if you see the replay I tried to regain map control but than again I just lose tanks carelessly and I compared my games to the pro gamers they only use 3 siege tank to clear mines while with 6 tanks also I can't clear mines .
On February 02 2012 19:20 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Did he open 1 fact port or 2 fact?
1 fact port if he has wraith just mass up tank vults and you should be able to break the contain with pure numbers if you properly execute the attack.
2 fact tank vult contain I like to get 2 quick comsats and a quick starport for wraiths. Clear the mines and drive his floating building off with your wraith. Now you have the vision advantage, the most important thing in TvT, and should be able to kill his tanks off one by one or he has to reposition them.
Those are the most important things to know in TvT. Always attack his siege line from a 90 degree angle if possible, maintain vision advantage and know your tank range.
Opponent went for a 2 fact so do I continue pumping from one starport and add factories in the mean time while I clear mines and get map control ?
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You need to watch a lot of tvt vods and learn the openings. Learn what your options are in reaction to your opponents opening. Im not gonna say to much because I dont know if cafeinfree (scary[T]) is lurking  .
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You should have used attack move when you pushed out with your 6 tanks and 2 vultures. Also you need to take your gas at your natural almost as soon as your cc there is up. But to be honest, you just got out macroed pretty hard, try building more factories to pump out a ton of vultures. Personally, I'm not a big fan of very early dropships because I feel like you don't have the gas to spare that early. If you had invested that gas into more factories for vultures and tanks, you probably wouldn't have gotten yourself contained.
And to answer your question about what to do when you get contained, if you don't have some sort of advantage, like a better economy because he went 2 facts or some tech (wraiths, drops), then you are pretty much dead, unless your control is much better than your opponent's. If your opponent goes 2 fact and you went with a standard FE build, then you can afford to throw scvs at him, they're very strong against low numbers of tanks. However, if you let your opponent set up bunkers, turrets, mines and siege tanks then you're done.
Anyway, I'm not very good but maybe what I wrote can help you out a bit. Also, props for playing TvT.
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To those who are better than me especially, please take my advice with a grain of salt, I'm just a humble one who loves TvT.
I love TvT, it's my favorite matchup, cause it all comes down to your control; you've both got exactly the same things, so you can't bitch about how unfair\gay their units are (:
First, watch High-Level TvT replays to get a grasp of what openings they do and the timings they do i.e. when to get acad\armoury to hold off wraiths, when to take 3rd base etc. I remember Faio 2, Blue Storm and Othello all have some AMAZING TvT's on them, cause they're great for that (:
I usually play it by ear but here are some general concepts you should be aiming for. If all else fails, ask a T streamer 'why he did X or Y' after they play TvT, or even tell your opponent beforehand that you're learning and whisp him after.
In the beginning it's a ballance between expanding faster and getting contained\killed. You want to expand as fast as you can to get better economy and more gas (gas is most important resource in TvT, always check your geysers from time to time making sure they've got 3 on 'em), but you also want enough tech/units to prevent him from waltzing all the way to outside your natural and containing you for free.
That's the first biggest problem in TvT: people not moving out just beyond their natural, thus letting the enemy walk all the way to 'across the bridge' from their natural (FS Desti etc.) and setting up camp. Move out a bit, so that they don't get that position for free. If you move out too far they can go around so be careful.
Second: Tech timing and building choice. "Do I 1-fact-CC or 2-fact-CC or 1-fact-1-port-CC or 2-port waaaaaa!"
Think about moving out to not get your ass contained (as well as having SCV scout in front of their base, making sure they can't run by your forces with vults)
Expand -->gas ASAP (learn to time it to finish right as CC (: )
Openings:
If they don't expand early, you need to be ready for fast wraith\dropship. That is how you feel, I usually like to go rax-fact-CC-fact-armoury(right after)-acad which gets you 2 facts and scans + gol tech --> get position --> 3rd -->+1 and port
I would recommend NOT going 2-port-wraith. It gets quite countered by the build I just wrote, wraith costs same as tank but dies much faster, and they can just roll down your face if they hold if off cause your fact\tank\siege will be less.
I would not reccomend rax-fact-port, get a CC in there instead!
If you wanna drop I would reccomend 4-goliath drop. Defends against wraith but still gives you enough factory tech. rax-fact-armoury\port\fact-acad or CC. Just try it out in an empty game a few times and see what works.
You can try and contain them with 2fact-port so siege + wraith help, but if they've moved out it properly it may not work and they'll expand faster than you. Though I do like this to punish greedy builds, it can come too late \: IMO 4-gol drop works better v quite fast CC, and then elevator in taks for lulz (they're relying on defense at nat to keep 'em safe, rear-entry ftw)
Then you've got vulture openings like 2fact speed runby v fast CC, fails if they wall well. Or 2fact mines --> drop, which works very well. Or 1-fact-mines double CC, but it's risky if they decide to just kill your mine-field with good control.
Now you've got lots of different openers, the next thing you've gotta do is make sure they aren't moving out to take ~your~ position on the map (SCV in front of base, or mines. Scan fact count)
TAKE 3RD ASAP! The third CC is the most important CC in TvT because it gives you all the gas you need to make dropships plus pump 2-tank-2gol or however you wanna spend your gas. Get it AS SOON AS YOU CAN (while still safe).
Then there are bigger things. Getting to +2 means in line-wars, your tanks 2-shot theirs (usually 3 shots). You can also weaken theirs down individually by pew pew with wraiths, but they usually die to gols/turrets. I'd reccomend if it's a choice between building a factory that you can afford to pump gas units out of, don't get +1 too early, it won't really help quite yet. However once your nat's down you should certainly start it, cause +2 attack kills +0 or +1. Again, you dont strictly need +3 tho it's nice, ditto armour. Remember that gas could always be spent on fact\tank\dropship...
Where to drop? Well, where it'd be hard to kill, yet still pisses the hell outta him. As long as you don't wait so long that it's not viable, it's better to wait for 2-3 dropships that will do LOTS of damage than just 1 dropship as fast as possible (apart from the openers above, conflicting advice FTW). Drop to A)kill SCV's B)Control crucial places like the top of their main ramp + macro area C)shut down expansions behind their main line D)really akward places to reach, where you can still kill supply depots or something.
Don't run into turret walls, though if you really want to float an ebay or an extra rax to soak up the shots first. If you can take control of their main ramp and shut off factory production, all you've gotta do is make sure you don't loose that spot, your defenses are strong enough, and you win the game.
Also in long drawn out games, turrets aren't that expensive, it's the gas that counts really, so don't be afraid to build them OUT on the map to catch dropship convoys off-guard. The person who looses all of their main base is usually the one who looses the game - try to not let it happen.
Have fun, and if you want TvT practice PM me (:
Oh yes about unit compositions. There's a rough equilibrium wraiths>tanks>(kinda) gols > wraiths
Huge tank lines and not many anti-air? A few wraiths will do the trick. Since gols build faster than Tanks, try to be making more tanks than gols. Gols >>> vults and mines, it's awesome. And Gols have higher dps v SCV's IIRC than vults (or even tanks once they pull them). Oh and v buildings too (:
I wouldn't recommend trying to learn TvT from Xellos Goodfriend 2004 stuff, or not even pre 2008, mainly because they didn't expand as fast as people do today, because the maps were lower money and had much harder defensible naturals. I also love TvT FPVODs, only second to TvZ MnM craziness.
As a start Fantasy Skyhigh usually give good TvT's, especially on Fortress. Fuck Fortress is SUCH a good TvT map as well <3 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/search.php?section=korean&type=all&search=fantasy skyhigh
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/390_Fortress/games/TvT
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Oh and Leta (wraithuu control OMG) and BaBy.
Flash is a no-brainer, there are some REALLY EPIC Flash v FireBatHero ones (on Moon Glaive and Medusa). Oh another thing FBH used this build on moon glaive once which was 3 unsieged tanks shooting down bunker before opponent had siege (he'd gone like 14CC) it was really cool, lemme find it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/35175_Canata_vs_firebathero/vod
This is a REALLY cool game (:
Canata Gas before Rax for fast speed-vult-2-fact and fast CC and fast port = 1 tank with siege. FBH normal 2fact CC speed vults, 3 tanks -go- + vults = win (:
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Just finished watching the replay. Thoughts:
You did a pretty good job of stopping his first runby, though placing a vult/tank on the ramp would have stopped it completely.
If you had gotten your natural gas as soon as your natural was up and running, you shouldn't have had any problems with the contain, as you could have gone up to 3-5 facts much faster and just rolled over/contained him (you were floating ~1k mins but no gas for a long time, while on two bases).
Additionally, when you saw his contain, instead of getting those three dropships you should have gotten a wraith or two. He didn't have any anti-air (which you scouted) and you could have just pewpewed his containing tanks till they either died or were forced to retreat.
For clearing out mines, I prefer to use goliaths over tanks. Goliaths have instantaneous firing and a faster fire rate than tanks (and can therefor be just a-moved into mines) and aren't nearly as expensive to replace if the mines are lined up properly.
Oh, when dropping: early game go for workers, as usual, but later (after ~15 mins) when you drop with tanks go after armories/CCs. Having upgrades delayed in TvT is sooooo annoying and getting +2 mech attack before your opponent is very nice for breaking fortified positions.
As mentioned, you just got outmacroed in the late game.
One more thing of note: while most pros don't get mech armor ups (as they are worthless against tanks) I still like to get them anyway, so that SCVs and wraiths have a really hard time killing my army (I really hate watching a drop of 4-5 tanks get killed by SCVs in a pro game...)
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EPT
