EPTUnless it starts before the first.
Purgatory Mafia
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
Unless it starts before the first. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On December 29 2011 21:01 Zona wrote: How does everyone feel about deferring the start of the game until Jan 2nd? Dec 31st and Jan 1st will be virtually no-activity days anyways, and it's already the 29th now. Hooray! | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
So as I am sure many of you are aware, the demons have no kp. The angels on the other hand, have 1 kp that they can use on anything, and 1 kp that they can use on demons, or "dark" town players. Given that we also have a demon hunter that can kill anything that isn't an angel, and a town sage that can undo the demonic corruption, I think it is pretty clear that our first priority should be to find and lynch angels. Hell, corrupted town can even help us find the demons. Lynching a demon is certainly preferable to no lynching or lynching town, but our main focus must be on lynching angels. They cannot be killed outside of lynching, and if we manage to lynch either the angel of death or the acolyte we lower their potential kp. If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now. All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote: Finally started! Hype! My first thoughts on the setup; Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote: Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote: Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. As for the order of action resolution, I read it when the game was posted and for some reason thought I recalled the cleansing being the first thing to resolve, not last. My bad. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote: Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:46 Dirkzor wrote: Game on! This setup scares the living shit out of me. So many nuances to keep track of. Anyway... I agree that Angels appear to be strongest in the beginning with 1/2 KP. But what haven't been mentioned is that Angels can kill the demon for us aswell. If we lynch Angel of Death and Angelic Acolyte we will have to lynch/Demon hunter the Demons. Since I don't know the Demon hunter or how good that person is, he could just aswell kill 3 town people the first 3 nights which of course would not be very favourable for us. It basicly means we would need to do more correct lynches while having a good demon hunter that don't fuck us over with continously town kills. Demons also have the Twist ability which basicly makes one (1) of their members immune to night actions, rendering the demon hunter to be less useful. What i wanted to point out that even if we get 3 correct Angel lynches (unlikely) the first 3 nights. The demons are equally capable to fuck us over. That is why I think that killing any angel or demon is good. Not one over the other. If we knew which angel or demon, it would be a different matter. Demon Hunter: Each night, you may target a player other than yourself to attack. Twister: Any attempts to illuminate, slay, stalk, or observe that player will fail. Doesn't make any mention of attack (nor of sense). Demon hunter should be good to go on any twisted demons. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote: Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote: I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:01 Blazinghand wrote: ^--- example of a good post that discusses an angel strategy. Would you deny Refallen the right to make this post, HofD? No, you definitely would not. But you can see how discussions of scum strats are important to the town now, right? It should be fairly clear. How did that post improve our odds of winning as town? Please elaborate. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote: IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. Once a strategy has been mentioned, I can't undo that. Also, I read that post as a mostly stating the obvious filler post, not a strategy post anyway. That was no more posting strategy than it would be to say "I bet you demons are going to try to get control of a vote majority!". But, I decided to correct a clearly flawed portion of it, aka the assuming that angels will magically never kill demons. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 04 2012 18:18 Dirkzor wrote: Oh right. My bad. Thx for clearing that up. Oh and by the way. Your whole discussion about sharing angel/demon strat or not is stupid. What Refallen wrote wasn't a strat it was obvious and its okay to post that. I think what HOD means is an elaborate strat that can't be countered by town - ei. a strat that will be advanced and give angels/demons a chance to win because town has no counter. A strat like: X angel kill A town with powers, then claims that he was in purgatory so Y Angel can say blah blah right? Yay reading comprehension! Also, who was sent to purgatory is announced :-) | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well. The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
He was useless to town...but he was also scum, so that tells us nothing of his town play. He also played in a way that allowed him to be correctly identified as scum. I see no reason to lynch him for meta purposes alone, and am perfectly content to give him some time to post something useful. On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote: What i think we should do today: I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. The benefits of lynching a lurker day1: 1)Town blues can be active to prevent a day1 catastrophe 2)Town green can be active, which along with the blues would prevent a day1 town lynch. 3)In order to avoid being lynched angels and demons will also have to be active 4)If people take this seriously then there should be no lurkers, town does not need to worry about lurkers and there will not be a lurker townie mislynch day 1. 5)In the absence of lurkers then the day 1 lynch can be on somebody scummy + Show Spoiler + (as you cannot lynch a lurker if there aren't any)+ Show Spoiler + we also shouldn't no-lynch because that gives the angels a free kill and a no-flip for town 6)If we manage to force activity then we can establish a strong town atmosphere and force people to take stances, give opinions and provide useful information that can be analysed. We would essential transform lurking from a viable scum tactic to actively playing against your teams win condition. Cons (that i have thought of): 1)if somebody does lurk there are likely to be townie 2)sometimes things IRL come up and a player may be force to lurk for a period of time that would not warrant a modkill but would get them labelled a lurker. 4)(some town) people can get bored with day 1 and struggle to make relevant posts and may lurk 5)By making non-town active they could confuse influence manipulate and/or derail the thread to town detriment + Show Spoiler + but if they can do it after being forced to be active it is likely that they could do so anyway by providing a way for blues demons and angels to escape the lynch, in the event that vanilla town make up the bulk of the lurking players, we could inadvertently create a list of actives that is dense in demons angels and blues, because the demons and angels know their own teams they can potentially utilise this list better. I aim to create an effect similar to what happened in student mafia in which BH pressured non-contributors and townies stepped up and began offering information which made them easier to identify and there was a strong pro-town atmosphere.Whilst the situation is different i wish to achieve a pro-town result and i believe that we very easily can. This is not me advocating a lynch all lurker policy simply (what i believe to be) an effective way to utilise the day1 lynch to create a better town atmosphere or by lynching a player that town can ensure is definitely not a townie. Please consider this, and try to look at it objectively That's always one of those sounds like a good idea things, that then never proves to be as useful as one would hope. It doesn't force angels and demons to be active, it forces them to be on par or more active than the least active townie in the game, and there always seems to be at least one afk townie. Also, lurker lynches don't generate much info since there is nothing very contentious about lynching someone with few posts, nor are they likely to have tied themselves to their teammates in their posts. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 04:45 Blazinghand wrote: So HoD, you rather reasonably want to give BL an additional chance to post, and rather reasonably don't want to always be lynching lurkers. What are your thoughts for a d1 lynch then, if it's not gonna be "guy who's posting terribly"? Or are we still acquiring reads or what Lynch the person that seems scummiest, obviously. And still acquiring reads. We have plenty of time left, no need to rush the lynch. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 05:48 layabout wrote: I feel like this might not be working.., with so many not on board there is next to no chance of success. Can we agree to look at lurking as highly incriminating and scummy? In the likely event of rubbish cases on day1 can we agree to go for the lurkers? additional justification: 1)with 12 town 6 non-town and information denying cabalities information and an organised town are much more valuable than they would be in a normal game (they are crucial in a normal game with even a semi-comppetant scum) 2)in the likely event of a day1 mislynch, it would be preferable to have acheived a pro-town atmosphere rather than a safe-to-lurk atmosphere Why do you think it is likely that the cases after 72 hours of time will all be rubbish? Why do you think a day 1 mislynch is so likely? Even random chance gives us a 1/3 chance of hitting some form of scum, and I would like to think we can do better than random. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Nah, it was touched on:Regarding set-up: In this game, it feels like the town roles can be used in very versatile ways that people aren't really touching on. For example, the demon-hunter is a vigi for demons, but they can also serve as a detective for angels. There is nothing that protects from attacks besides going to purgatory, so if the demonhunter's target lives without going to purgatory, then they're an angel. Same thing with the sage. Many people are focusing on the cleansing aspect of the role, but not on the investigative powers. This ties in with the corrupted players as well. While the demons want to corrupt as many townspeople as they can, this also makes it more dangerous for them, as they essentially introduce demon detectives into the game. + Show Spoiler + The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. Also, I am assuming that his posting means he will actually be playing this game despite the lack of reply from Zona so far. Also, Wiggles makes a key point about lurkers here, so for those not aware, highlighting it again: Regarding Lynch all Lurkers: If you want to pursue this, you need to make the distinction between lurkers and inactives. Someone who hasn't posted all day cycles is not a lurker. They are an inactive. A lurker is someone who comes in, makes a useless post to appease everyone, and then leaves again, continuing this as necessary to keep pressure off themselves. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
On January 05 2012 15:19 Blazinghand wrote: Demonstrate to me that Palmar and Erandorr also DON'T do very little on the first 24 hours of day 1 when they are town, and I'm game like venison Why limit it to the first 24 hours? I said if they don't start posting more. But, have some town PaImar: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=282366&user=87086 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=87086 And some town Erandorr: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284685&user=117613 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212&user=117613 | ||
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