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I'm not talking about the pathfinding, or the graphics, or the sound effects (SOUND in BW is vastly superior), I'm trying to jot down the subtleties that made Brood War such a great RTS compared to all the other ones out there at the time. If you haven't booted up BW in a while, try it out, it might surprise you how much detail they put into the feel of each unit.
Tyler said on a SOTG episode "Not to be mean but I don't think Blizzard understands the subtleties of Brood War" when he spoke of the Carrier. He couldn't have been more right.
Lets try to nail these things down shall we?
Tracked / Legged units turn on a dime but hover units feel like have momentum
There is an inherent path finding feature for all flying and hovering units. They move as if there is momentum in their movement. Do this in BW, click a hovering unit, whether it's a SCV, Probe or Drone, or a Carrier, Battlecruiser and tell them to go in the opposite direction. If they're standing still, they'll do an about face and move towards where you want them to go. However, if they're in transit they'll do a cute loop de loop, a small turning circle (larger for Carriers), giving them a feel that they have weight. Siege tanks *feel* like mechanized units, compared to on foot solders. Carriers *feel* like massive floating fortresses.
This *tiny* feature makes the game feel so much more natural. This feature is also what makes BW air groups not look so like a clumped mass since all air units do a tiny loop before going to their positions, causing them to fan out a bit.
All units have variable turning rates I think this one is pretty big as well. All units have different turning rates based on their size and role and method of propulsion. A siege tank turns much slower than a vulture and goliath is in between, however a dragoon has no turning rate, it simply moves sideways. Here, an entire spectrum of depth has been removed in SC2.
They've simply sped up turn rates of all units so that all units turn instantly.
Units will not fire unless facing target To add on to my previous point, units don't fire unless they're facing the target or they are within the cone of fire they are allowed. This seems to be a very big issue as well. Siege tanks for example, have a slow turret turning speed, meaning if you're not already facing the target you're at a disadvantage over the first shot. However, if you're already targeted the enemy the turret is already aimed. Same goes for units like Vulture and Mutalisk, you have to face the target to fire quickly, otherwise these units will have to turn and fire which is slower.
All units have a back swing time This might be a bit iffy, but I noticed all units have some kind of backswing before firing.
Dragoons - opens their hatch Marines - moves their weapon down Siege tank - rotates turret (way slower than SC2 tank) Zealot - powers his blades (for a split second before he thrusts) Vultures - projectile has a travel time and doesn't shoot if not facing enemy Hydralisks - does some weird shit with his face, then squirts acid Firebat - sticks his guns up (has the longest swing back time) I can keep going but you get the gist, every unit has some kind of early back swing.
Animations in BW were made for Fastest, in SC2, they were made for nomal I think this is more about watchability than anything. Brood war feels like all the animations were made for Fastest (since it feels stuttery on faster or normal) so it feels "normal speed" while SC2 animations were all made for normal. I find this a bit troubling for a sports game that's supposed to be watchable. While the death of an overlord or an ultralisk feels disgusting in SC2, they happen a bit *too* fast for anyone to notice. Anyone else feel this way? I love watching MLG and GSL like anyone else but I can't help but have that feeling that the fleeting moments happen way too fast, I barely even get a chance to get excited before it's all over.
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All this subtle depth from the strategy game is missing. I tested with the same units in SC2. All units turn on a dime, all units have almost instant and similar turning speed, all units' turrets are meaningless by design (they shoot instantly, therefore no real applications).
Anyway, it's interesting to go back to BW after playing just SC2 for a year and seeing these small subtle things that made BW great. Don't get me wrong though, the no MBS, no unlimited selection, the absolute craptastic pathfinding, and the ridiculously bad graphics are still there.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On November 12 2011 04:47 wankey wrote:] Vultures - projectile has a travel time and doesn't shoot if not facing enemy
I beg to differ. Perhaps you've heard of Patrol Micro?
+ Show Spoiler [tutorial] +
Overall, an interesting read. Well-researched.
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i agree with all these points, nothing game changing but good for watchability
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SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
SC2 forcefield restrict micro and the units can be attacked; fungal restricts micro, the units can be attacked, and they take damage
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On November 12 2011 04:52 LeafMeAlone wrote: SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
SC2 forcefield restrict micro and the units can be attacked; fungal restricts micro, the units can be attacked, and they take damage
I don't believe that's a subtle difference.
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United Kingdom3489 Posts
On November 12 2011 04:52 LeafMeAlone wrote: SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
SC2 forcefield restrict micro and the units can be attacked; fungal restricts micro, the units can be attacked, and they take damage
Dark Archon Maelstrom does restrict micro and so does the Queen's Ensnare to a much, much lesser extent.
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Agreed. I like how workers doesn't mine at same speed, yet the game is balanced.
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On November 12 2011 04:52 LeafMeAlone wrote: SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
This argument always makes me laugh. What about lockdown? How about Maelstrom? Just because they weren't used often doesn't mean those abilities didn't exist.
Anyway, I think the OP is right that a lot of subtlety feels missing, but he's not talking about these spells.
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On November 12 2011 04:47 wankey wrote:
Animations in BW were made for Fastest, in SC2, they were made for nomal I think this is more about watchability than anything. Brood war feels like all the animations were made for Fastest (since it feels stuttery on faster or normal) so it feels "normal speed" while SC2 animations were all made for normal. I find this a bit troubling for a sports game that's supposed to be watchable. While the death of an overlord or an ultralisk feels disgusting in SC2, they happen a bit *too* fast for anyone to notice. Anyone else feel this way? I love watching MLG and GSL like anyone else but I can't help but have that feeling that the fleeting moments happen way too fast, I barely even get a chance to get excited before it's all over.
I'm sorry, where did you get this information from? I must have missed it...
(hint: I'm asking because I'm pretty sure OP made this up)
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The first three exist in SC2 for sure (you see them in the data editor for the exact times and everything.) The fourth I don't know about, but I think it also is true for SC2.
The last one I just disagree with, I think everything looks like it's in slow motion if on normal speed.
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On November 12 2011 04:55 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:52 LeafMeAlone wrote: SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
SC2 forcefield restrict micro and the units can be attacked; fungal restricts micro, the units can be attacked, and they take damage Dark Archon Maelstrom does restrict micro and so does the Queen's Ensnare to a much, much lesser extent. yea but maelstrom only effected biologic and did no damage (vs fungal). so it wasn't as essential.
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On November 12 2011 04:55 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:52 LeafMeAlone wrote: SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
SC2 forcefield restrict micro and the units can be attacked; fungal restricts micro, the units can be attacked, and they take damage Dark Archon Maelstrom does restrict micro and so does the Queen's Ensnare to a much, much lesser extent.
Same with lockdown. A big difference between that and the unit abilities in SC2 is, in SC2 the utility of those units is much greater. You have to make a choice between getting maelstrom or storm because you simply don't have the gas to get both and the upgrade is researched at the same building. Ghosts take away from vessels, queens from defilers, ultras, ect.
In SC2 there aren't as many situations where you wouldn't want sentries, marauders, phoenix, infestors, ect.
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Most units in SC2 do have a firing cone and delay from turning speed, it's just that for marines, hydra, immortals etc it's extremely quick. However, when you look at stalkers or roaches you have a noticeably slower real firing rate when running away and stutter firing compared to chasing and firing.
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I agree with OP.
SC2 is different from BW.
...Yeah.
Wait, did you say that BW's graphics are better than SC2's? I hope not.
Anyways, they're different games -.-' Leave it at that please
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Yeah another of these threads!
Different games are different.
User was warned for this post
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Yeah, you're definitely wrong on a bunch of those. First off BW was intended to be played on normal speed, but with SC2 they knew people would be playing on fastest. Stalker turn rate being slow is one of the big disadvantages of them. And for turn speed, look at immortals and thors. Both of which, as well as mutas, can only fire forwards (well immortals spin I guess but thors and mutas for sure). And units also have "backswing time". Hellions have a big pause before firing, hydras have a backswing, again Thors have to get their arms into firing position. So yeah, most of those you're wrong on.
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On November 12 2011 05:01 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 04:55 [17]Purple wrote:On November 12 2011 04:52 LeafMeAlone wrote: SC1 casters don't restrict micro (plauge, dark swarm, etc), stasis does but the affected units can't be attacked
SC2 forcefield restrict micro and the units can be attacked; fungal restricts micro, the units can be attacked, and they take damage Dark Archon Maelstrom does restrict micro and so does the Queen's Ensnare to a much, much lesser extent. yea but maelstrom only effected biologic and did no damage (vs fungal). so it wasn't as essential. and maelstrom was shit hard to pull off cos the units dont clump, except maybe mutas but storm , archons and corsairs deal with them cheaper or better.
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NO UNIT IN SC2 DIES IN A PILE OF BLUE GOO. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, this is my main problem with sc2.
Valid points and interesting read
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On November 12 2011 05:08 tnud wrote:NO UNIT IN SC2 DIES IN A PILE OF BLUE GOO. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, this is my main problem with sc2. Valid points and interesting read
Immortals have blue goo, just it's not jelly-like and doesn't show up on low graphics.
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Disagree, so many of these are in the game o.o for example, all units have "backswing' aka attack animation in SC2. If no unit had backswing, they would all attack instantly; even the marine doesn't attack instantly, though its attack comes out very fast.
Units also have different turning rates in SC2.
Again, units in SC2 have to turn and face before shooting.
The last one is just guessing, it's a 2D game meaning they can't make so many frames per animation or else it would take forever. Of course it would look better on faster; it makes animations look smoother. I think the animations for SC2 on fastest are fine.
On November 12 2011 05:09 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 05:08 tnud wrote:NO UNIT IN SC2 DIES IN A PILE OF BLUE GOO. + Show Spoiler +Seriously, this is my main problem with sc2. Valid points and interesting read Immortals have blue goo, just it's not jelly-like and doesn't show up on low graphics.
I wish they still had "burning" Pylons but at least they have a little blue goo yes haha xD
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