|
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8v0JE.jpg)
Map Name: Black Canals
Live Version: 2.3
Map Download Name on Battle.net EU: Black Canals
Tileset: Xil Wasteland (original tileset)
Map sizes: 132x149 (playable) & 152x168 (full)
Game Type: Melee 1v1
Number of Player spawns: 2
Number of bases: 10 normal & 3 gold
Xel'Naga Watch Towers: 2
Main to Main Distance: Barrin's Method: 33 sec (identical to Agria Valley). See analyzed images for various paths and distance travel times (of a worker). Distance has remained the same in version 2.3.
Natural to Natural Distance: Barrin's Method: 38 sec. See analyzed images for various paths and distance travel times (of a worker). Distance has remained the same in version 2.3.
Starting location space: 24 CC (rounded down from 24.6)
Latest Overview Image:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8eQD4.jpg)
Tilted Overview Image (Version 2.3): (high resolution)
http://imgur.com/0zcZR
New Main to Natural Ramp (Since Version 2.2): (high resolution)
http://imgur.com/X6zDc
Old Versions: (also includes analyzed shots that still apply to V2.3)
+ Show Spoiler +
Thematic Images:
+ Show Spoiler +I removed the old ones as they no longer represent the 'feel' of the map. After rebalancing version 2.3 I will be working on the thematics of the game and add pictures in this section.
Updated Comment / Changelog:
+ Show Spoiler +
Because there were so many chokes and narrow corridors on this map, I felt I had to redesign the open spaces for balance purposes. In version 2.0 I feel I have adressed and solved the following issues from version 1.0:
- The second ramp has been turned into a backdoor by connecting the middle gold island to both mainlands and blocking off both player's ramps with destructable debris. This solved underusage of the middle island and balanced the rush-sensitive entrances.
- All canals on the map have been narrowed down to 25% of their original broadness, creating large amounts of extra open space. This solved the problem with zerg being too much pushable with tanks and collosi because of the many chokes and narrow corridors that were there before.
- The third natural has been lowered to ground level, creating a more open space that is harder to defend. Taking a third was formerly too easy and too defendable, I solved this by turning the ramp into open ground.
- I opened up a second entrance toward the 'fifth' (which is now the fourth in terms of how easy it is to take). This is because in version 1.0 the fourth and the fifth were almost as isolated as an island, making them feel excluded from the map.
- I increased the middle fortress open spaces by expanding it on all sides. Narrow ramps have been broadened, making the middle a worthy but difficult to defend position for all races.
In version 2.2 I have adressed and solved the following problems:
- I made the main to natural ramp diagonal for walling off purposes.
- I created more space (2 CC) on the main to push the mineral lines back a bit, allowing the construction of missle turrets/ photon cannons/ spore- and spine crawlers.
- I placed the geysers at the starting mains next to each other. I did this because it was annoying to move workers from the main to natural without picking a gas worker.
In version 2.3 I have fixed a few minor issues as well as done a complete rebalance of the middle two gold bases:
- Bottom mineral patch was misplaced.
- West Xel'Naga Watch Tower moved more to the west and on low ground to reduce Siege Tank abuse in the middle.
- Created narrow space between geysers of main.
- Natural mineral placement is more natural and easier to defend against air harass.
- Middle gold bases more exposed and minor issue with geyser workers getting stuck fixed.
- Reduced the complete east part of the middle fortress to ground level to reduce Siege Tank effectiveness into defending the two gold bases.
- Added four 'tall grass' hiding spots in north-west corner, south-west corner, at the low ground XWT and at the backdoor route.
Lore:
+ Show Spoiler +On the ancient, dead world of Xil there are very few signs of life to be found. Fossilized death and ancient ruins scatter the desolate world. A noteworthy location on Xil however, is the artificial island on it's southern hemisphere. While stripped clean of any useful Xel'Naga technology, it is rich in minerals and vespene. Although many expeditions, both archeological and stripmining in nature have tried to lay their hands on this mysterious island, none have returned. Infested beneath the earth? Perhaps there still lie some dormant Xel'Naga defense fields within that harm anyone who comes near? And what is up with the water all around Xil being pristine aquatic, while it turns deep black in the artifical canals surrounding the island?
Will you find out?
Concerns (summary):
- Blink may be abused on this map due to many high ground spaces.
Upcoming Changes (2.4)
- None yet.
I am mainly looking for constructive comment to get this map in a submission-ready state, but any other comment is also welcome!
I am also looking for testers! Do you think you found a way to exploit this map with a certain tactic? Contact me (in this thread or via PM) or add me online (Callynn.359) and ask me for a match!
Special thanks to the following testers: Adonminus, Peonsson and DrDeath.
|
as a zerg player i will have nightmares about this map
|
I played as zerg on this map and it wasn't all that bad. You can choose to either pick off some enemy workers with a rush because there are two openings or you can take the relatively easy to defend natural and third. The central chokes are there to give Protoss and Terran a fighting chance, but air and overlord drop could play a central role in the end game to be honest.
|
It doesn't 'weigh eachother out', if it never gets to the lategame. Zergs will just do something super aggressive so they never have to face those deathballs. It's basically : kill him quick or lose. So instead of stimulating many playstyles, it will force the aggressive playstyle, and all will hinge around that. In the current metagame those 2 entrances probably wouldn't work out.
|
Thanks for your feedback, can you give me a suggestion how to adress this issue?
Should I:
- remove one ramp completely?
or
- close one ramp with destructible debris?
- create more open spaces?
or
- remove some chokes?
Thanks for your time!
|
Nah, don't remove it completely, atleast not until we've tried some other stuff.
First, put smth there to block it, like rocks. What I haven't seen yet in sc2 is stacked rocks, rocks that alone are weak, but theres a bunch of em so to effectively break u need aoe.
I assume you want to stick to the 'canals', so I would suggest making the roads bigger, trying to implement a plane here and there, and make small and long canals, rather than broad ones. Think from gameplay perspective first, getting it balanced, and then add any doodad / canals, etc.
|
Thanks a lot I will play a series of 10 matches with my friends tonight and based on their feedback along with the feedback from this forum I will make version 1.1.
Just for clarity, by making planes you mean like 'town squares'?
I think I could also just make every other canal less broad to create more open space here and there without damaging the 'feel' of the map.
|
With those 'planes' I just mean a big open space, a place where engagements are made possible for all races, for example the open places in front of the base ramp of tal darim, where u see most fights. you need these big open spots to allow for good maxed army engagements.
Other examples : the open area at the xnt in scrap yard, the large area at the gold in xnc (good example of a map that has too many chokes imo btw), anyways you get the point.
|
Aside from the feedback you've already gotten :
I'm not a big fan of the watch towers. For a terran, it's way too easy with siege tanks. The corridors already help terrans (and protoss to a lesser extent with forcefields) but with the vision, they can easily hold any position unless they make mistakes.
I also don't see the point of the rocks at the island expansion. It's already in a vulnerable position overall and with rocks I doubt anyone takes it.
The 4th and 5th seem like they are on a different map almost. I don't like the entrance to them and the fact that there are no real paths from your third IE that side of the map needs to be a bit more open.
The 3rd seems too far from the action IMO. I like the placement but I think you should lower their position (talking from the 3rd on top) so that they aren't too isolated.
Finally, I feel at least one of your paths should be more open to leave zerg with a better chance to spread creep and/or make use of their zerglings. Right now, it seems incredibly easy to push zerg around with force fields or tanks.
I know this breaks the corridor-like feel of your map but that's also because I don't think a map can ever be balanced with that. You still retain a lot of ledges and some corridors if you make these changes but there's a better chance at balance overall.
|
On October 16 2011 01:55 []Phase[] wrote:
What I haven't seen yet in sc2 is stacked rocks, rocks that alone are weak, but theres a bunch of em so to effectively break u need aoe.
Terran AOE: Tanks, hellions
Protoss AOE: Colossi, templar, archons
Zerg AOE: Fungal growth, banelings, ultralisk
There is a balance reason behind why we don't see stacked rocks. Zerg has a MUCH harder time getting aoe to break them down without wasting resources on banelings
|
On October 16 2011 02:27 Kurr wrote:
I also don't see the point of the rocks at the island expansion. It's already in a vulnerable position overall and with rocks I doubt anyone takes it.
When I first tested this map I played as a Terran and facerolled my Insane AI opponent by fast expanding to the golden island. I was able to hold his attacks at the small ramps with some tanks and MM, then I had such a flood of resources I just facerolled into his base. The debris is a solution to this map becoming overpowered for Terran.
On October 16 2011 02:27 Kurr wrote:The 4th and 5th seem like they are on a different map almost. I don't like the entrance to them and the fact that there are no real paths from your third IE that side of the map needs to be a bit more open.
I tweaked the 4th and 5th a lot. So much in fact that as I'm looking at it now I totally understand what you mean. At first the 4th and 5th were very open, but the problems that arised with that was that it created a tendency of 'horizontal 5v5 base split' games, where the action was postponed into the 25 minute timer -which makes for terribly boring maps to spectate-.
From this my choice to force the only way to get to the 4th and 5th through the middle arose. But as you see it now, it almost makes these bases islands. They are still too easy to defend. When I am opening up the map spaces (for more zerg-friendly play and harder tank and FF control) I will consider fusing these expansions back into the action without forcing a horizontal map-play.
On October 16 2011 02:27 Kurr wrote:The 3rd seems too far from the action IMO. I like the placement but I think you should lower their position (talking from the 3rd on top) so that they aren't too isolated.
You are right, the third should be harder to defend. It's isolated position and it's distance from the enemy make it too easy to take and the hightended ramp make it too easy to defend. I will lower the third in my next version.
On October 16 2011 02:27 Kurr wrote:I know this breaks the corridor-like feel of your map but that's also because I don't think a map can ever be balanced with that. You still retain a lot of ledges and some corridors if you make these changes but there's a better chance at balance overall.
I'm certainly going to try to preserve the 'canal' feel of the theme when tweaking the balance. Thinner canals are an option I seriously consider.
Edit: I have finished and uploaded version 2.0. I feel all problems mentioned in this thread have been solved and I hope I can get some more constructive feedback to further improve this map, getting her ready for submission.
|
Tanks. Tanks. Tanks.
The only way i see this being balanced is if you remove the backdoor completely and make the center golds easier to attack (bigger chokes, bigger ramps, etc)
As a terran, i will bunker my natural and proceed to do a slow tank push through the back alley, taking a gold base along the way. A cluster of tanks and thors in that back path is impossible to engage as any race.
also. Tanks. *shudders*
|
On October 16 2011 06:14 Fishgle wrote:
Tanks. Tanks. Tanks.
The only way i see this being balanced is if you remove the backdoor completely and make the center golds easier to attack (bigger chokes, bigger ramps, etc)
As a terran, i will bunker my natural and proceed to do a slow tank push through the back alley, taking a gold base along the way. A cluster of tanks and thors in that back path is impossible to engage as any race.
also. Tanks. *shudders*
While I understand some of your concern. I think you are overreacting a bit. There is a huge amount of open space for air harassment, the backdoor is every Terran's nightmare (remember Blistering Sands) and the amount of open space surrounding the natural makes is impossible to fully defend it with just tanks. The step from the natural down to the third and into the gold fortress is not easily taken for any race, including Terran.
However, if you have a replay showing how tank control can get out of hand on that map, or if you are willing to play against me (I'm diamond Zerg) to show me, just let me know.
|
well i wont comment on gameplay but your ramps from your main to nat should always be diagonal so you can wall off properly. also i know it would change your map drastically but generaly all ramps are supposed to be diagonal (i only really understand that ramps are diagonal for walling off purposes)
|
On October 16 2011 07:10 Turbogangsta wrote:
well i wont comment on gameplay but your ramps from your main to nat should always be diagonal so you can wall off properly. also i know it would change your map drastically but generaly all ramps are supposed to be diagonal (i only really understand that ramps are diagonal for walling off purposes)
Well there are several options for walling off. It could be done at the natural's diagonal ramp or at the tight small vertical ramp in more ways than one. Walling off there requires as much buildings as it does when it is a wide diagonal ramp, but the defensive position is undeniable because it's a very small choke.
I'm not saying you are wrong though, if this becomes a serious issue in testing rounds I will change that ramp to diagonal (which isn't all that hard to just do in 5 minutes).
Thank you for your feedback, I'm adding it to my concerns list.
Edit: I'm making the main to natural ramp diagonal after the last testing round for version 2.2.
Edit#2: Version 2.2 is now up and ready for testing. I would really love some more feedback.
|
I feel extremely sorry for the protoss that have to play PvP on this map. Imagine the places those stalkers could blink.
|
United States10182 Posts
omg so many ramps and chokes T.T
back door = wtf plz no...
less blocky.
|
I feel extremely sorry for the protoss that have to play PvP on this map. Imagine the places those stalkers could blink.
Yea, that may be a problem. I will ask for some tests with Protoss to see if blink is abusive here.
back door = wtf plz no...
Why not? Constructive feedback please.
less blocky.
The blockyness is an aesthetic choice, this is supposed to be an artificial island of ~20.000 years old.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DiowE.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qXuye.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HQ8oH.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YHSKr.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nzKtn.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HGY59.jpg)
