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My TvP is easily my worst matchup
I tend to go very heavy bio play
I might have a big econ lead, 3/3 ect, but when tos gets the 200/200 death ball(vs my 200/200 MMM/Vikinbg/ghost) with Collosus(and maybe some HT) in it I cant even seem to engage properly and get absolutely ran over
My question is, if the toss gets to 200/200 is it better to perhaps transition into mech?
Should I just not engage a huge toss army and always just try to move around/go for a base trade?
Formation wise, if you do attack into colo, how do you micro the MMM to both avoid clumping up(if they have HT) and falling back to stay out of collo range? Just shuffle step back?
And lastly, whats the best composition to use vs a deathball(MMM/viking/ghost) percentage wise
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We need:
Replays. At least one or two.
Tags on the thread title.
You to read this.
You might want to think about reposting this in the simple questions simple answers thread too.
Wait why do you have 109 posts?
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You just need a lot of ghosts, around 10 if you want to engage toss army. If you emp everything terran bio army can walk over toss death with proper positioning. Transitioning into mech is bad because you want have any upgrades and gateway+colossi will roll you over.
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you really need to leave your vikings in front to hit colossi while microing your bio backwards. emp their army prior to engagement and spread out your bio so the colossi dont deal alot of splash damage. This means it is imperative to avoid engaging in chokes. Positioning is key when dealing with a maxed protoss. Also, lategame it is best (if protoss not favoring air tech path i.e.-void rays, pheonixs, carriers) to cut marine production and go purely marauders. This is because marines become cannon fodder and basically a waste of supply when colossi enter the field.
Happy to help-
Outplayed
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If you're going for MMM you really shouldn't let protoss get to 200/200 you should keep attacking and keeping the army size down, doing anything else is just creating a more difficult situation for yourself.
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On June 21 2011 07:40 sSoda wrote:
You just need a lot of ghosts, around 10 if you want to engage toss army. If you emp everything terran bio army can walk over toss death with proper positioning. Transitioning into mech is bad because you want have any upgrades and gateway+colossi will roll you over.
The OP mentioned nothing about mech, and it's actually decent against late game toss >.>
The recent Thor nerf does make mech weaker, tho
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With perfect EMP's. Then kite the zealots with your bio ball and try and position your vikings so they will pick off the colossi before the colossi get too much of a chance to slice up your bio.
Ideally you don't let the toss army reach 200/200 but generally if you have +3/+3 ups and extremely good EMPs then you're doing alright.
Also, at late, late, late game start throwing scvs away and using excess orbital commands to fund your army. This allows you to have like 40+ extra supply for a more powerful 200/200 army.
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I don't see why people have this idea that bio should be able to engage everything. If the protoss is at 200/200 he likely has more than just standard gateway tech, making it very hard to engage it with bio. Skip the engagement, drop, harass, and tech. Take map control and spread him out thin, force him to engage you in small numbers where your bio is stronger than a split up ball. Cost efficiency will not be achieved slamming your 200/200 food bio army into his death ball.
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We really need a replay to answer this well.
Things that could be not in your favor: Positioning both in terms of concave as viking access to the colossi (those need to go down fast)
Did you carpet emp his entire army (if you want to get rid of a deathball with bio this is usually a necessety)
How marine heavy was your bio composition? (against a high colossus count you want to be very marauder heavy)
Was he zealot heavy and if yes did you kite him correctly? Or alternatively snipe him?
All questions that could have been answered by a replay 
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On June 21 2011 07:47 noobinator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 07:40 sSoda wrote:
You just need a lot of ghosts, around 10 if you want to engage toss army. If you emp everything terran bio army can walk over toss death with proper positioning. Transitioning into mech is bad because you want have any upgrades and gateway+colossi will roll you over. The OP mentioned nothing about mech, and it's actually decent against late game toss >.> The recent Thor nerf does make mech weaker, tho
On June 21 2011 07:33 Original exxo wrote:
My question is, if the toss gets to 200/200 is it better to perhaps transition into mech?
You're wrong he asked if he should go for mech
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I also favor going heavy bio with maybe a few tanks. But usually when the Toss has that 200/200 transitioning could leave you vulnerable. Even to slowly start adding on factories to go mech will make you further vulnerable and with any decent protoss, their observers could see the switch happening and prompting them to attack.
I also am probably assuming you wouldn't have the 3/3 on the mech. With Terran bio you have to abuse the mobility that you have against the clumped death ball. Drops in multiple places will usually have protoss scrambling to split their armies wrong to deal with it.
And as mentioned above, EMP on death balls usually make it easy to take care of stim + good concave around the protoss army.
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If your going heavy bio, get ghosts, marauders, medivacs, and vikings. Marines get absolutly murdered by HTs and collossi, so avoid building them when he gets several colossi out. When you engage his death ball lead with the vikings and just dive in and out, being able to hit the colossi (assuming he has them) without being hit by most of the stalkers and sentries. If he went for HTs, cloak the ghosts and EMP them, even if he didnt go for HTs EMP him anyway to damage his shields. When most of the colossi are down and/or most of the HTs are out of energy, engage with the marauders with the medivacs close behind. Kite the zealots with the marauders (with concussive shells). His army should be easily crushed unless he went pure zealots with charge, even then most of his army should be dead. Also you want to drop to pull his army out of position and put him behind in economy so he can't rebuild his army as fast. Hope that helps.
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Don't let toss sit back. Engage in drops. Terran MMM is good because of its mobility. It'll ruin his macro and economy if done properly. Do something like drop 1 at main. Then double at the 3rd expo. Protoss army ball is SLOW. Keep doing this and it will allow you to max out earlier than the protoss and get more marauders to melt away the stalkers so your vikings can snipe collosus. Probably want vikings and ghost on separate hotkeys. If you can afford it. If the toss doesn't have an obs with him. Cloak then emp then stim marauders in absolutely owns toss. engage in an open area. (generally in the centre of the map) If you know where he is. Bring a small group of marauders + 2 medivacs. Come from behind. Stim and snipe collosus.
You can also try a seige tank build. As long as you can keep the army back from engaging your siege tanks. The tanks will own everything on the ground.
GLGL!!
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I stick with bio late game because I normally go double e-bay and have 3-3 upgrades. While drops is a good way to break up the Toss army, my key to beating a maxed out P army is to have a lot of ghosts (8-12) with cloak. Scan their army before you engage to make sure there is no observer, if there is, kill it. Then EMP away.
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Contrary to early and mid-game, you do not want your army in a ball, but more of in a spread or concave. If your army is caught in engagement as a large ball prestimmed, you are literally screwed. EMPs need to go down BEFORE the battle to be perfect, not during as a few Guardian Shields will make all the difference sometimes.
Your goal should be to trade armies not too extremely but cost efficiently, e.g. taking out key units such as Colossi. (Please no imba jokes on how you can never trade effectively vs Protoss deathball). It is always nice to put your Vikings in "rigged" spots such as on high grounds. Never leave them as isolated as a Blink and focus fire on them will let the Colossi fry your army.
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-Make a really nice arc/concave with your units. This makes a HUGE difference and is very subtle
-Micro vikings properly (keep them in front or to the side if there is space like in Xel Naga caverns) . -Spread out vikings and medivacs, and ghosts
-juke in and out a couple of times before stim to force forcefields. EMP sentries as well if they are not sooooo high on HTs you can't spare any
-generally once you can choose your composition, no marines unless you can't afford marauders with vikings+ghosts+medivacs.
-If they have a TON of chargelots, blue flame hellions can be good, or more marines (usually more marines unless its earlier in the upgrades)
-Micro back parts of your army away from storm and zealots, usually not the entire thing with your control group. This will provide the parts not being stormed/charged to provide dps instead of halting it
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Ok, so as I understand it you're asking how to engage the protoss deathball late game.
Here's how I do it, to great sucess:
First, hotkeys:
1: Ghosts
2: MMM + vikings
3: Vikings
Ok, so first you need to scan and know where the protoss army is. Note the location of their HT's.
Cloak and mvoe your ghosts up, and attempt to EMP the HT's- emp like crazy, make sure you neutralize them. This is critical. If one or two survive, eh, ok. If a lot do, don't engage.
If you get them all, go onto sentries, then clumps. This is ideal, of course.
I then a-move my 2 group into the protoss ball, making sure to stim. Once our armies have met, I hit 3, then chain focus fire down the colossi. If a good number of vikings are left and the fight is still going, I land the vikings, and clean up.
Last note- DO NOT FIGHT IN A CHOKE. You will be eaten alive in it.
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On June 21 2011 07:54 Nothingtosay wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 07:47 noobinator wrote:On June 21 2011 07:40 sSoda wrote:
You just need a lot of ghosts, around 10 if you want to engage toss army. If you emp everything terran bio army can walk over toss death with proper positioning. Transitioning into mech is bad because you want have any upgrades and gateway+colossi will roll you over. The OP mentioned nothing about mech, and it's actually decent against late game toss >.> The recent Thor nerf does make mech weaker, tho Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 07:33 Original exxo wrote:
My question is, if the toss gets to 200/200 is it better to perhaps transition into mech?
You're wrong he asked if he should go for mech
My apologies, the OP isn't exactly organized :/
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Diamond terran here. TvP is one of my best match-ups and what I've found works well is to work towards MMM Viking Ghost and dump extra minerals into blue flame hellions while keeping light on the marines. The advantage is you can scout and harass the toss expansions easily to keep your production higher and focus on infantry upgrades as hellions only really need the blueflame upgrade to murder zealots/dark templar/high templar. Also when you finally engage they work as decent meat-shields vs stalkers (no bonus damage) so your vikings have more time to pick off the colossi. As other people have stated the real key to to blanket emp their army and try to keep the colossi count down by constant timing attacks. VS toss these usually come at times like right after stim finishes, right when blueflame is done (harassing), and when you have a couple emps ready.
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Well, what I would think is that it's a terrible idea to even let the Protoss go to 200/200...
Yeah, I would just spam EMP's over his sentries and HTs, engage on open ground, and kite to no end. EMP's literally reduce the Protoss to Terran's level, and a good concave would work wonders.
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EPT
