EPTCome play flamewheel, how can you pass this up
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Come play flamewheel, how can you pass this up | ||
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Radfield
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Radfield
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Village Idiot is on the list twice. I assume that's a mistake, and that there is actually only one VI role up for grabs. Also, Hero, Doctor and Bodyguard are absent from the shortlist. By my count, there are 23 roles which have some form of KP, 15 with some kind of investigative role, and around 12 defensive roles. Should be a fun, and probably quick, game | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
*note: There is a new rule in place. In the event that your first AND second numbers clash with another player you both go straight to the bottom of the order. So if 3 players picked [4][1], [4][1] and [4][7] the 2 players with [4][1] are bumped below the player that picked [4][7] along with the original bump. All in All the most unique number combination gets priority. Draft Order Question: When two players pick the exact two numbers, [4][1] and [4][1], would they drop ALL the way to the bottom of the draft, or just below the player who picked [4][7]? If 6 numbers were chosen: A [4][1] B [4][1] C [4][7] D [8][1] E [8][2] F [10][1] Would the order be: F [10][1] C [4][7] D [8][1] E [8][2] A [4][1] B [4][1] Or would it be: F [10][1] C [4][7] A [4][1] B [4][1] D [8][1] E [8][2] My assumption is the former, but I just figured I'd check. | ||
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Radfield
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On May 11 2011 03:20 Incognito wrote: Actually it would be: F [10][1] D [8][1] E [8][2] C [4][7] A [4][1] B [4][1] Cool, that makes sense. More unique equals higher up. | ||
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Radfield
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Kitaman, any plan to try and assign numbers to people is a poor plan. The best way to let things fall somewhat random is to let everyone send in their numbers blind. Of course this gives the mafia an advantage (they are slightly less blind) but any attempt to assign numbers helps mafia more than town. However, we absolutely want to identify which Mafia roles are most powerful, and which roles are worth denying. And we absolutely want to discuss that today, BEFORE the draft list comes out. Once the draft list comes out, then mafia have more chance to argue to assign anti-town roles into their own hands. So lets have this discussion now. + Show Spoiler [Incognito's Post] + On May 14 2011 13:30 Incognito wrote: List of invisible posters: GMarshal Kitaman27 tnkted Bum's post is on spot. Fortunately, I already mapped out some stuff. PYP Insane Game Plan The optimal picking strategy revolves around this cute little role: This role obsoletes the PYP1 and PYP3 role picking strategies. The mere existence of the thief on the role list means that it would be seriously harmful for mafia to know where the good roles are. Of course, it’s a no brainer that the good roles are in the beginning part of the list. So my only advice is that if you’re in the beginning of the list, seriously consider picking a role such as NRA member or Meth Man to deter the mafia from hitting/stealing roles from the top of the list. Due to the fact that the mafia can coordinate numbers with each other while the town can’t, it is very likely that mafia will get a spot within the top 3. As shown by the past PYP games, mafia has gotten the first or second spot in all 3 games. Which means town will likely have to be on the defensive, as it is hard to guarantee that we can effectively deny mafia the thief role. The amount of potential KP in this game is huge. This means that there is a huge potential for the game to end quickly. The basic town strategy should be to avoid KP roles, while going heavy on investigative and defensive roles to try to prolong the game. Tier I Roles Mafia 2 Detective + Vote Rigger Inventor Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Role Cop Bullet Bill PYP3 Veteran Doctor Bulletproof Mafia 2 Detective combined with the Vote Rigger is a combo that allows us to break up the town into chunks and analyze with greater ease. The formula is simple. The Vote Rigger rigs the Day 1 Vote into 4 roughly equal blocks with 7, 6, 6, and 5 voters each. All the lurkers/suspicious people are piled onto one list, and the Modern Detective uses his vote check to check one vote block each day, starting with the lurkers. Town then proceeds to analyze the split lists, allowing for more focused analyses. The rest of the investigative roles are used to sort through the lists, while the defensive roles prolong the game and squeeze the mafia. The Mafia will want these roles Kingmaker + Politician Thief Caller Godfather Roleblocker Janitor JailKeeper Puppeteer Hero PYP3 Veteran NRA Member CPR Doctor The best mafia combo pick is Kingmaker + Politician. This effectively gives mafia an unlimited anonymous unblockable dayvig power, capable of sniping off all the top town players. Caller Godfather is also an obvious mafia role. As anyone who’s read Caller’s Mafia V knows, Godfather recruiting high level townies with good roles is a town’s worst nightmare. Denying this role is iffy, as a mafia thief has plenty of time to try to find the role and steal it before it can actually be of use. Jailkeeper, roleblocker, and NRA member are powerful roles for the mafia that prevent investigations, and potentially save mafia from NKs. Hero and PYP 3 veteran cause town pain when mafia slip out of lynches and snipe off a townie. Lastly, puppeteer is surprisingly useful for a good mafia arguer, as it allows them to anonymously mislead town and cause tons of chaos in the thread. However, the most critical roles that we need to deny are the Thief, Politician, Jailkeeper, and Roleblocker. Due to the threat of a mafia thief, we can’t discuss precise strategy here, but townies should strongly consider picking one of these 4 roles. By the way KillerSOS is mafia. Also Node is mafia. I agree that thief is absolutely key to any attempt to assign roles. No point assigning mafia roles to certain slots if the thief can just swipe them. Therefore, any attempt to assign roles must begin with the thief at the #1 slot. If the thief attempts to swipe one of the mafia roles from further down the list, presumably the alarm is raised and someone gets lynched. Town will have plenty of KP in this game, so double claimers can much more easily be dealt with than in a regular game. (Making it much less advantageous for mafia to enact silliness)(Keep in mind though, that the journalist is going to be causing counter claims, traitor claims and all sorts of nastiness) Incog, While your vote-rigger and mafia 2 Detective(M2DT) is a good plan, it hinges on two town players receiving the roles. There is absolutely no way for us to assure this Day 1, and frankly there is very little I would be confident in Day 2 or 3 except my own role checks(which of course no-one else would be confident of). If either of the roles fall into mafia hands, the plan is toast. If town gets both roles, mafia will kill either the VR or the M2DT, and the plan is toast again. A role centered plan like this is far too fragile to focus our investigative efforts on. While it's a good plan, it's not one that i can see working. Also, our goal during the game should not be on a fancy role play, it should be on scum-hunting, which i'm sure you agree with. I think the only thing we need to focus on right now is which mafia roles are so bad for town, that we should try to assign them. Roles that are really good for us don't need to be discussed that much right now, as they should not be assigned at all. We want to leave those pro-town choices in the hands of townies and deny mafia any extra info. We can make a suggestions list of highly pro-town roles tomorrow after the draft order comes out. So, what roles are very bad for town? Many have made suggestions already, and some I disagree with, as some roles can be effectively nuetered. America: This is NOT a scary role. The easiest way to solve the America role is to say this: ANYONE WHO USES THE AMERICA POWER DIES. No pro-town player should be taking this role. We have a glut of other excellent pro-town roles, so there is not need to take this. Having this role in the game makes things only harder for town. Kingmaker: Again, this is not a scary role. Once again, NO TOWN PLAYER SHOULD TAKE THIS ROLE. However, that doesn't stop the mafia from taking the role and hiding. Therefore, if anyone ever gets made king, they must abide by a majority decision on whom to lynch. So, at the start of the day, whomever is the king declares it, and we treat the day as a double lynch. Failure to lynch with the majority gets you killed, plain and simple. This effectively nueters this roles potential danger in mafia hands. Also, this allows any role cop to instantly identify a mafia if they have this role. There are far too many anti-town roles to deny them all to the mafia, so the next best thing is to all collectively agree as a town, that certain roles we will not take. In particular, any role that is good as a mafia, but bad as a townie, should not be taken by a town player. Firstly it's a waste of a good potential townie role, and second you're not necessarily denying the mafia anything, since there are so many good mafia roles. Also, by agreeing as a town to not take certain roles, it means if a role cop every finds someone with that role, or if it ever comes to light during the course of the game that someone is a particular role, then we have found a mafia. I'm proposing that we form a list of roles that will NOT be taken by any town player. Anyone found with one of these roles will be lynched. Roles that are good for mafia, but fairly useless for town are as follows: NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America and Kingmaker (see above) Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Recruiting Mason Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker (this is a rough list, I went through it pretty quickly, but the idea is there, so lets refine it) The vast majority of these roles are useless in town hands except for denial purposes. Because of this, I see very little likelyhood of the mafia taking these roles. The mafia want to focus on taking roles that are good for them, AND good for town, as this has the effect of giving them a good role, and denying town a good role. Yes this plan allows mafia the pick of this litter for roles, but these are mostly second rate roles for mafia members, and open themselves up to any and all role checks. Several roles are in fact powerful enough for us to take notice. In particular: Inventor, CPR Doctor, Journalist, Vote Rigger, and Caller GF Inventor. We absolutely must know where this role is. If pro-mafia inventions start getting thrown around, we need to know where to lynch. Also, a pro-town Inventor should be handing out copious amounts of Bulletproof Vests. Ver, does whatever get invented during the night show up in the day post like in PYP1? CPR Doctor basically doubles mafia KP. Not sure how we best use this role, but we want to know where it is. Journalist will cause all kinds of false claims and couterclaims. Insanely powerful. Knowing where this role is at least allows a town player with a KP role to kill the journalist if the power gets used on them. Vote Rigger is obviously bad, but by knowing where he/she is we can get an easy lynch if this power gets used. Caller GF is obviously bad. I propose we assign these five roles, along with thief, to the first 5 people in order. Yes, some of these roles may end up in mafia hands, but I honestly don't know how we avoid that. At least this way the roles are exposed and far less frightening than if they are allowed to go unknown into the draft. By knowing where these roles are, town gains more power. Some notes on other roles: PYP3 Veteran has the ability to survive a lynch. This is a very anti-town power, since if someone gets voted to be lynched, we want that player to get lynched, otherwise town will be wasting time trying to lynch them again. For this reason, I think this role should also go on the No-Pick-List. (Also, having this in the game would allow mafia to take the hero role, and then claim PYP3Vet when they dodged a lynch. Not something we want to happen.) Bad Santa seems like a scary role, but I don't think it is. It only gives the mafia 1 extra KP during the entire game. This makes it a good role for mafia, but there are plenty of other roles which do the same thing. Also, this role can be effective in town hands as well. The bad santa role effectively won the game for us in PYP2. Prince of Darkness is also not a scary role. Mafia only have a KP of 1, so once again, this only gives the mafia 1 extra KP. In addition, town will have a ton of night powers(there are 15 investigative powers in the game) so this is as good for town as for mafia. If you disagree with the ideas in this post, please point out the problems in the general idea, not in the details. Don't nitpick in otherwords, and don't throw the whole plan out because you disagree with some details. If you agree with some of the ideas here, feel free to argue about the details and lets try to refine it Here is my role list I made before the game started. Some things I have since valued higher or lower, but it's a general breakdown for those who would like to look at it. + Show Spoiler [role list breakdown] + I've organized the list with two numbers, pro-mafia value first, pro-town value second. I'm sure i've mis-valued somethings, but don't quibble with the values unless i'm way off base. This is a general reference only. List by pro-townitude: Inventor 5 5 Capitalist (role cop + vig) 5 5 Chuiu Jack 3 5 Modern Detective 2 5 Priest 2 5 Assassin 2 5 NKVD Agent(Alignment Cop) 1 5 Caller Godfather 5 4 PYP 3 Veteran 5 4 Bad Santa 4 4 Vigilante 4 4 Mafia 4 Veteran 3 4 Role Cop 3 4 jailkeeper 3 4 Mafia 2 Detective 2 4 Veteran 2 4 Mad Hatter 2 4 Mafia 4 Hatter 2 4 Bullet Proof 2 4 Bullet Bill 2 4 Witch 2 4 Medic 1 4 Parity Cop 1 4 NRA Member 5 3 Vote Rigger 5 3 Rock Star 4 3 Emperor 4 3 Day Vigilante 4 3 Vengeful Player 4 3 America 4 3 Kingmaker 4 3 Mason 3 3 bus driver 3 3 Hider 2 3 Dirty Cop 2 3 Alignment Cop 1 3 Doctor 1 3 Meth Man 1 3 Watcher 1 3 Hero 5 2 Zombie 4 2 Admiral Ackbar 4 2 Pardoner 4 2 Cupid 4 2 Suicide Bomber 3 2 Politician 3 2 Journalist 3 2 Copy Cat 2 2 Janitor 2 2 Recruiting Mason 2 2 Hooker 1 2 Martyr 1 2 Tracker 1 2 Bodygaurd 1 2 Mafia XII Godfather 5 1 Bomber Man 5 1 Thief 5 1 Prince o Darkness 4 1 CPR Doctor 4 1 Agent of Chaos 3 1 Roleblocker 3 1 Role Reverser 3 1 Framer 3 1 Bone Breaker 2 1 Puppeteer 2 1 Mafia VIII Traitor 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Clue Detective Mafia Role List Inventor 5 5 Capitalist (role cop + vig) 5 5 Caller Godfather 5 4 PYP 3 Veteran 5 4 NRA Member 5 3 Vote Rigger 5 3 Hero 5 2 Mafia XII Godfather 5 1 Bomber Man 5 1 Thief 5 1 Bad Santa 4 4 Vigilante 4 4 Rock Star 4 3 Emperor 4 3 Day Vigilante 4 3 Vengeful Player 4 3 America 4 3 Kingmaker 4 3 Zombie 4 2 Admiral Ackbar 4 2 Pardoner 4 2 Cupid 4 2 Prince o Darkness 4 1 CPR Doctor 4 1 Chuiu Jack 3 5 Mafia 4 Veteran 3 4 Role Cop 3 4 jailkeeper 3 4 Mason 3 3 bus driver 3 3 Suicide Bomber 3 2 Politician 3 2 Journalist 3 2 Agent of Chaos 3 1 Roleblocker 3 1 Role Reverser 3 1 Framer 3 1 Modern Detective 2 5 Priest 2 5 Assassin 2 5 Mafia 2 Detective 2 4 Veteran 2 4 Mad Hatter 2 4 Mafia 4 Hatter 2 4 Bullet Proof 2 4 Bullet Bill 2 4 Witch 2 4 Hider 2 3 Dirty Cop 2 3 Copy Cat 2 2 Janitor 2 2 Recruiting Mason 2 2 Bone Breaker 2 1 Puppeteer 2 1 NKVD Agent(Alignment Cop) 1 5 Medic 1 4 Parity Cop 1 4 Alignment Cop 1 3 Doctor 1 3 Meth Man 1 3 Watcher 1 3 Hooker 1 2 Martyr 1 2 Tracker 1 2 Bodygaurd 1 2 Mafia VIII Traitor 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Village Idiot 1 1 Off topic but important!! I'm using chrome, and am having some difficulties. When i click a spoiler tag on someones post, it doesnt open and instead just sends me to the top of the screen. Also, when i try to click the bold or italic or quote button, etc in the reply box, nothing happens. Anyone know how i can fix this? I could use Firefox, which works fine, but it is really slow on my computer. Thanks | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
However, knowing this, i'm going to make sure I ask anyone who makes a claim to repeat themselves. And if they don't adamantly push that what they said is the truth, I'm going to disregard what they said. I realize that a player cannot insinuate they were journalisted in any way, but how far does that go? If a player makes a claim that they are a role cop and found the PoD, but then in their next post waffles as to whether we should lynch that player, is that against the rules? Or if they are a bit too easily convinced of an opposing veiwpoint, or seem to be pushing to focus attention elsewhere? I guess what I'm saying is that because I know the journalist is in the game, my gut instinct is going to be to push anyone who makes a claim to back themselves up, and really post their feelings. Is this something I should be refraining from doing, or is this a problem for the journalist to make sure they don't force someone to say anything that's too black or white? | ||
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Radfield
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+ Show Spoiler + Please disregard my off topic note at the end of my big post. If I could edit it out I would. | ||
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Radfield
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On May 14 2011 20:24 deconduo wrote: Oh, and to those coming up with picking tactics, I'm noting going to be following them. I'm going to pick whatever I think is most fun, not whats most optimum. This argument has been made in past PYP games as well. I can certainly understand where it comes from, no one likes to be dictated to, and the point of mafia is to have fun. However, it's important to note that what you're basically saying is, "No matter if role-denial is a great thing for town, I'm going to do whats best for me". This is of course an anti-town and pro-mafia viewpoint, so I hope you understand that I'll probably view it as such, and may hold it against you as the game goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, just trying to point out how I see that particular viewpoint. However, if you disagree and think that role-denial is NOT a great thing for the town, that's a different matter, and i encourage you to elaborate(which i'm sure folks some will). | ||
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Radfield
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I think what we want to focus on is a sparing list of roles to deny mafia, and then allow town players to choose at their own discretion. I'm not actually sure how a traitor throws things off. The goal of assigned roles is to keep them either a) out of mafia hands, or b) in a known location. If someone picks traitor instead of say, Caller GF, then that still very likely keeps the Caller GF role out of mafia hands.(mafia wouldn't want to possibly waste a pick on an assigned role). | ||
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Radfield
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I'd like to clarify my plan, as i feel it has been a bit misconstrued along the way. The plan has 3 facets to it: Using the first 6 picks to deny mafia, creating a list of anti-town 'No-Pick' roles, and coming up with a list of the best pro-town roles. Also, there are several roles which we need to agree to how they will be used. I am strongly and ardently opposed to any planning of where pro-town picks should land. The idea that people higher up should take investigative roles and people lower down take protective is a poor one in my mind. Yes, it would be great to avoid town overlap, but not at the expense of giving mafia more info on who has what role. Instead, I propose we create a priority list of the best pro-town roles, and allow town players to choose for themselves whether to take an investigative/offensive/defensive role. This puts the trust of role picking back on individual townies, and lets them run with it. Part One: So part one of the plan is the denial and placement of super-strong mafia roles. The key here is not to ensure that mafia do not get the role(as anyone in the top 6 could be mafia), but rather to ensure that the town knows where these super strong mafia roles are. The order I assigned, before the draft order came out, is as follows: Thief - Flamewheel Inventor - Scamp CPR Doctor - Caller Journalist - Barundar Vote Rigger - Radfield Caller GF - GM Marshal These roles would be taken in the first 6 picks, and in my opinion, substantially help town by knowing where they are. Thief loses it's potency if we know where it is, Inventor can be controlled and forced to be pro-town, a hidden CPR Doctor would effectively double the mafia KP, the Journalist becomes fairly impotent when his location is know, Vote Rigger is an auto-lynch if his power is ever used inappropriately, Caller GF as far as i can tell is vulnerable to alignment checks and hence can be possibly confirmed before Night 2(or whenever his power activates) Ver, can you confirm that Caller GF will show up as red to alignment checks? Also, when is the first moment that Caller GF can send in his recruitment. If anyone has any questions or comments on these 6 roles or why they need to be assigned, please speak up. As far as I can tell, all 6 of these become far, far less potent to mafia if we know where they are located. Part Two: We need a list of 'No Pick' roles, which no townie will pick. These are roles which benefit mafia far more than town. The purpose of this is two-fold. First, it allows any role cop to instantly become an alignment cop, which is a huge boon to the town. Second, it allows town to focus their efforts on the other generally more important roles for town. The list as I see it is as follows: NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America Kingmaker Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Recruiting Mason Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker Janitor PYP 3 Veteran Bus Driver? Bad Santa? Several points have been raised about the inclusion of the Day Vig and Zombie. The reason I feel these should be on the 'No Pick' list is again twofold. First, townies have a poor record killing mafia, and second, mafia can use these roles to snipe off confirmed townies AFTER they have been killed or hammered for a lynch. Therefore, lets at least make it more risky for mafia to select those roles. A general note on KP roles: Town should in general be steering away from taking KP roles, and towards taking investigative roles. Keep in mind that there are around 15 investigative roles, which means that the longer(ie less KP) the game goes on, the larger the advantage for town. It also means a townie using KP is far more likely to kill investigators than mafia. Part Three: This is a list of the best town roles as i see them, and roles that should be prioritized for the 19-20 townies to take. This is in a general order of best to worst, but by no means is this list meant to be a hard rule, and town players should be encouraged to take any role on the list. Capitalist Chuiu Jack Modern Detective Priest Assassin NKVD Agent Vigilante Mafia4 Vet Role Cop Jailkeeper Mafia 2 DT Veteran Mad Hatter Mafia 4 Hatter Bullet Proof Bullet Bill Witch Medic Parity Cop Hider Alignment Cop Doctor Meth Man Watcher Bad Santa? Bus Driver? Some notes on various roles: Inventor should be making exclusively bulletproof vests. We cannot guarantee that Scamp is pro-town, therefore it is essential that we make sure he only hands out the most pro-town inventions. Bulletproof vests are excellent for town, and mediocre-poor to mafia(especially if town prioritizes Investigative roles over dt roles). America. Any player who uses this role should be lynched immediately Kingmaker Any player who is made King for the day should immediately claim it, and then follow the will of the town by treating it as a double lynch for the day. CPR Doctor, Journalist and Vote Rigger should never be used by the town players Tracker should be used to follow the CPR Doctor and ensure he is not visiting anyone(At least initially) Assassin is an awesome pro-town role, and mostly useless to the mafia unless combined with a mafia role cop. Bad Santa is not necessarily an anti-town role, as it has exceptional investigative powers. Alignment Cop despite being Sane or Paranoid, is a fantastic town role that never gets picked. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
The only time to reveal information would be if you're sure it helps town. For instance, if you had the second overall pick and tried to get the traitor and failed. This would be a no-brainer. Or if I try to take the vote-rigger and fail, I would certainly reveal that information. I'm simply suggesting everyone think long and hard before giving out info to the public about your role. Also, I'd love to hear that Flamewheel, Scamp, Caller, Barundar and GM Marshall are going to take their assigned picks. Frankly, even if you 5 are not going to, just tell us you are anyways(though it's better if you do take them). At least that way the mafia will likely avoid going after those roles. | ||
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QUOTE]On May 16 2011 01:39 chaoser wrote: Inventor should be making exclusively bulletproof vests. We cannot guarantee that Scamp is pro-town, therefore it is essential that we make sure he only hands out the most pro-town inventions. Bulletproof vests are excellent for town, and mediocre-poor to mafia Mafia has a lot of cover power this game, there's like 4-5 roles that just let you hide your alignment/role. We can't rely on blue investigation to pull us through, Not to mention inventor will probs not live very long. I'd rather the inventor make more useful stuff than bulletproof vests. Assassin is an awesome pro-town role, and mostly useless to the mafia unless combined with a mafia role cop. How is Assassin protown? It's basically a CV for mafia since they can just name GREEN everyone. For townie it's like a one time DT role that confirms one person outright with the potential to KP a lot of shit. Should you succeed in your hit, you are refunded your kill to use again in the following cycle or later and nobody is the wiser. Should you fail, your target lives but you and your actions will be publically outted, your intended target outted, and you will permanently lose your powers. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by relating mafia cover roles to the inventor. I absolutely agree that we cannot rely on blue investigations during the game(as we may have none), and have no intention of letting town focus on role plays or hoping on investigators. An inventor who is handing out bulletproof vests will probably live for a while, as he/she will be a prime target for medic coverage. I'd like to hear what kind of stuff you think is more useful for an inventor who's alignment is unknown. Any invention made will show up in the day post, so it has to be something unambiguously pro-town, or the inventor will get lynched. This happened in PYP1, when the inventor made a cel phone. His intention was to start a PM circle, but a cel phone can be used for other purposes, like detonating a bomb for instance. Bulletproof vests are great, as they are unambiguous in their purpose, and benefit town much more than mafia(assuming the inventor is mafia-aligned). | ||
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Radfield
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On May 16 2011 02:34 tnkted wrote: Also, inventor can't make more than one of the same type of item... that means he can make ONE bulletproof vest. He could make like, a redirector item that redirects a bullet to somebody else, or a mirror item that mirrors all actions back on the actioner, but only one bulletproof item. Good point, so this means we need a list of about 4 pro-town items. Bulletproof vest, Medic Kit, Alignment Checks and Veteran Powers would all make the list. I'm sure there are some others, but these types of roles are all great for a town player, and weak for a mafia player. But that can be sorted out day-to-day if the inventor lives. | ||
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Radfield
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On May 16 2011 03:26 infinitestory wrote: I think we can easily get more pro-town inventions if we think outside the box. e.g.: A robotic dog which can seek out gunpowder. If given to a person with a gun, it'll sneeze all night and notify everyone. If not, the person gets a onetime Bullet Bill check. The key is not to find pro-town inventions per se, but rather to find pro-town inventions which are unambiguous. A robotic dog could kill a player when they try to use it, a broadcast tower could send a signal to explode a bomb inside a vest that the inventor handed out, etc. Anyways, this is all likely moot, as a townie inventor will probably get roleblocked, and a mafia inventor will just not invent, and claim they got roleblocked. Anyways, we have plenty of time to talk about this, as we have over 72 hours before the inventor has to invent. However, we do need to discuss the pro-town role list, and the 'no pick' list. Is there anything that doesn't belong, or should belong, on those lists?? | ||
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Radfield
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On May 16 2011 03:42 infinitestory wrote: I've said before that Copy Cat is potentially pro-town. We also had a long discussion about the masonic role which deemed that Agent of Chaos and Recruiting Mason aren't very good choices for mafia, even if used together. You're right, Copy Cat is potentially pro-town. The only reason I am wary of it, is that I am also pushing for the known pro-mafia roles in the top 6. This means if we lynch a vanilla townie Day 1, then mafia can snipe one of the top 6, and steal a very pro-mafia role. Therefore, in this particular case, I would say we as town avoid it, and that way any role check will find a scummy Copy Cat. I also agree that Recruiting Mason should not be on the 'No Pick' list. Agent of Chaos however has no place in townie hands, so it might as well be on the 'No Pick' list. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 16 2011 05:23 Scamp wrote: I'm really confused about Radfield's no-pick list. He introduces it as his own creation but it's actually just a copy-paste of Bumatlarge's list with a few odd changes. Firstly, he replaces Janitor with the Day Vig and then adds Janitor back on the list toward the end. Next, he replaces both godfather roles with the recruiting mason. Caller GF is in his top 6 so that makes sense but why remove the other godfather role from the no-pick list, and what's bad about taking recruiting mason? Finally, he removed 'traitors' from the list. Why would you do this? He replaced it with the PYP3 Veteran. Why add that and not, say, hero or rock star? Why does neither no-pick list have the framer? That seems pretty anti-town to me. I think bum's list is actually MY list copy/pasted, not the other way around. Anyways, those are all good questions: -Caller GF is in top 6 -Actual GF is immune to alignment and role checks, so is irrelevent for the No-Pick list. -Recruiting Mason was pointed out by Infinitestory, it shouldn't be on the list. -Hero and Rock Star ARE on the No-Pick list -Framer IS on the No-Pick list -Traitor is not on the No-Pick list because it is obviously 100% anti-town, no one needs to be told this. One can't even claim to be denying it from someone else. -Janitor never 'replaced anything', It was simply left off the first incarnation of the list because I meant to write a note about it at the bottom of my big post. Someone rightly pointed out it should be on the No-Pick list, and so it was added. - Day Vig is still on the No-Pick list -I explained why the PYP3 Veteran was added to the list: PYP3 Veteran has the ability to survive a lynch. This is a very anti-town power, since if someone gets voted to be lynched, we want that player to get lynched, otherwise town will be wasting time trying to lynch them again. For this reason, I think this role should also go on the No-Pick-List. (Also, having this in the game would allow mafia to take the hero role, and then claim PYP3Vet when they dodged a lynch. Not something we want to happen.) Anyways, here is the current No-Pick list as I see it: + Show Spoiler + NRA Member Hero Bomber Man Rock Star Emporer Day vig Vengeful player America Kingmaker Zombie Admiral Ackbar Pardoner Cupid Prince of Darkness Suicide Bomber Politician Agent of Chaos Roleblocker Role Reverser Framer Copy Cat Bone Breaker Puppeteer Hooker Janitor PYP 3 Veteran Bus Driver and Bad Santa could be on this list, but they're both fun roles, and fairly decent in town hands so they should probably be left off the list. In other news, since flamewheel is not willing to take thief and go with part one of the plan, then the whole plan is somewhat scuttled, as mafia can take the thief lower down and swipe one of the good roles from the top of the list. I would say that the number 7 player could take thief instead, but deconduo has already expressed his unwillingness to be assigned a role. Also, it's unlikely that Caller will play along anyways. So, perhaps my Top 6 plan should be scrapped and flame, Scamp, Caller, Barundar, myself and GM Marshall should take whatever picks we want. The real question here is whether half an assigned plan is better or worse than no plan at all. I would recommend that the top 6 players still consider taking their assigned roles in an effort to deny the mafia those roles. Again, even if you are in the top 6 and not planning on taking an assigned role, it's still worth it to say you will. Thoughts? What's the best way forward here? | ||
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