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Hi everyone,
have you ever heard of the 10000 hour rule? In a nutshell, you have to spend 10000 hours in any given activity to achieve mastery. I heard about this a lot when I read about language learning and I also know of some studies conducted in sports and music, which prove that the professionals spend 10000 hours and more in their respective activities. So when I looked up a fitting quote for TL I read this article on the the 10000 hour rule and it hit me, why not have a discussion here on TL about what you think. Do you agree? What about talent? Is there a way around spending 10000 hours playing SC:BW or SC2? People like Day[9] always remind us to practice a lot and analyse a lot and in detail. Does his way work as he intuitively has this rule of thumb in mind? Or what about the Koreans who spend tons of hours playing? Did Nada amount to 10000 hours? I guess so! So what do you guys think?
(I would've loved to put this topic in the strategy section, but was way unsure if it belongs anywhere near there. If a mod thinks this topic belongs there, please move it. Thanks!)
Regards
ionize
[EDIT] My bad, it's supposed to be mastery not perfection. Don't get confused about that. If any mod could rename the topic accordingly please, that'd be nice!
[EDIT2] Thanks GHOSTCLAW!
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As far as I understand it is not perfection that is attained but mastery. Perfection is not possible for a human. And the number is usually 10k+
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I think there's been a thread about this before.
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10000 hours would be 417 days...
So I don't think nada did that much  If he practiced for 12 hours a day straight he would have to have done it for 834 days to get that much time in :p
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On April 09 2011 01:25 NexUmbra wrote:10000 hours would be 417 days... So I don't think nada did that much If he practiced for 12 hours a day straight he would have to have done it for 834 days to get that much time in :p Let's say Nada practice an average of 8 hours a day so that amounts to 1250 days which is roughly 3 years and a half. Given his SC:BW career I would doubt he couldn't have practiced that much.
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10000 hours is 416 days. Considering sleep, let's say a full-time freak gets a quarter of his life time put into something, you end up at around 5 years. if you count the real freaks, who really do nothing else you maybe get this down to 4 years.
I actually think, no one ever achieves "absolute" perfection. So i think it's pointless to use this term. You can always do something better, so the term "perfection" as you use it is not a final value. Thus, it really depends on how high you set the marker for something to be perfect. 5 years can be enough for that, but it can just as well not be. It really depends on how high you set the bar.
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I believe it... Makes sense, which means I need to practice what I like waaaaaaay more.
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On April 09 2011 01:25 NexUmbra wrote:10000 hours would be 417 days... So I don't think nada did that much If he practiced for 12 hours a day straight he would have to have done it for 834 days to get that much time in :p
Nada has been playing Starcraft for 8 years afaik
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i think its not "perfection" but its to be considered an Expert at something.
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On April 09 2011 01:28 MisterD wrote:
10000 hours is 416 days. Considering sleep, let's say a full-time worker gets a quarter of his life time put into something, you end up at around 5 years. if you count the real freaks, you maybe get this down to 4 years.
I actually think, no one ever achieves "absolute" perfection. So i think it's pointless to use this term. You can always do something better, so the term "perfection" as you use it is not a final value. Thus, it really depends on how high you set the marker for something to be perfect. 5 years can be enough for that, but it can just as well not be. It really depends on how high you set the bar.
On April 09 2011 01:28 MisterD wrote:
10000 hours is 416 days. Considering sleep, let's say a full-time worker gets a quarter of his life time put into something, you end up at around 5 years. if you count the real freaks, you maybe get this down to 4 years.
I actually think, no one ever achieves "absolute" perfection. So i think it's pointless to use this term. You can always do something better, so the term "perfection" as you use it is not a final value. Thus, it really depends on how high you set the marker for something to be perfect. 5 years can be enough for that, but it can just as well not be. It really depends on how high you set the bar.
Korean pros practice 8 hours a day... Given their career length, I imagine the top guys definitely practice that much. Look at JD, he plays more than 8 hours and he is amazing. Flash as well, and NaDa played for how long? 3-4 years? He difinitely could have hit 1000
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Sorry guys, you're absolutely right, it should be mastery not perfection. My bad. :-(
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I would say in e-sports physical condition is largely irrelevant, meaning if anyone can put the time in anyone can be great. Sure some will be more inclined to perform better especially in stressful situations, but thats something that can be directly accounted for with dedication and play time. 10,000 hours sounds about right.
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This has been discussed to death, search the word "talent" to find the discussions.
I would believe this rule except its not just 10,000 raw hours practicing, its 10,000 hours of "deliberate practice" there is a huge difference between the two. Google deliberate practice to see what it is.
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Years ago, when Darts became a big hype here I heard a famous Darts player say that any new player has to throw 1 million darts to throw an 180, which is pretty logical, when you think about it. Throwing a million darts gets you the practice you need to reach that goal. This type of brute force approach can be applied to most goals.
I never heard of the 10000 hour rule that you mentioned, but I kind of figured something like that already long ago, as I am sure many people have. The only real question for me is what are you going to spend your 10000+ on? Is Starcraft a good option? To be honest I think there are activities that yield better rewards.
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Well it's wrong because different things require different amounts of time to become completely fluent in. But something resembling that amount of time would probably be considered necessary to become high level in a very competitive industry (music, art, languages, gaming, chess). If you work it out most progamers probably manage to get there in 3 1/2 years, and some who practice for 5 years are worse than people who have played for 2 etc. So you can still improve beyond the 10k hour thresh hold, and it comes down more to technique of improvement, as some are obviously better than others.
So it's just a way of motivating people to work harder, no magic number of hours for anything.
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Malcolm Gladwell - Outliers
That's where the theory is from.
Basically with 10.000 hours you can reach the top of anything, not be #1 in the world, but at least "be in the same league"
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It depends on what you are asking.
In terms of BW/SC2 I would say no because everyone's skill ceiling is different, method of practice and training is different and we're all limited.
This type of mastery has too many variables and is highly subjective. I've known tons of people who have played Brood War for well over 8 years and while I can say some are 'good' others would still fall into D+ or C on ICCUP. ;/
On April 09 2011 01:37 Jayve wrote:
Malcolm Gladwell - Outliers
That's where the theory is from.
Basically with 10.000 hours you can reach the top of anything, not be #1 in the world, but at least "be in the same league"
Same league? Hogwash.
10,000 hours applies more to mastering a trade than anything else.
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It certainly doesn't apply to all things, and is overused as an authority.
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There are lots of things that take far longer than 10,000 hours to reach the "highest levels".
Piano would be the most obvious example.
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Not sure how this is revolutionary, I think anyone could of deduced that if you put 10,000 hours into something and have no other limitations you are going to be pretty damn good at it. I guess the guy who did the study put a arbitrary number on it it, but this isn't exactly something that nobody knew before. I think with 10000s hours into something if they are focused and include time to analyze how to get better you should be in the top .5 percentile or so.
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EPT
