hi. i've used the search function as well as i could but couldn't find exactly what i was looking for so i'm writing here. feel free to link me to where i can find what i'm looking for ;/ i checked liquipedia but i don't think sc2 has gotten to the point where you can have a scouting versus terran or gameflow page just yet. no replays for me to post because it's not like i'm having trouble against one build in particular. i really hope that i placed the right tag for this and that i put it in the right part of the forum; if i didn't feel free to tell me how i can rectify the situation
i'm considered a casual protoss player. i've been reading TL for at least 6 years now? i actually forgot my password to my first account because i never actually used it so i had to make a new one a couple of months ago still trying to get used to switching to sc2 from bw. i'm kind of used to the PvP and PvZ match-ups now because my friends play these races but i still have problems playing against terrans because i usually just outmacro most of my terran friends hands down and a-move.
anyway, my problem is that i have trouble telling the terran builds apart so i can't really tell what my unit composition/build order/expo timing should be. i'm not talking about cheese builds; i'm talking about standard play. it seems a lot more important in sc2 to be able to tell tech routes etc apart because i can't rely on just pure zealot dragoon to get me to/through midgame and economic leads seem more important now; i can't rely on good micro alone to win me a game. i can usually tell if a terran is going to be agressive cuz he'll have stuff like concussive shells early or stim a bit later on with a lot of marauders (correct me if i'm wrong) but i can't tell if a person is going for a hard tech route versus a 1 or 2 rax expo etc or even a 1 versus 2 rax build and stuff. i didn't really want to list questions because i just want to know as much about scouting against terran in general as i can but here are some questions in particular that i'd like to be answered... in list form i know that with enough games anyone will probably be able to tell these types of things apart subconsiously or not but i don't get to play as many games as i'd like because of school so i'd appreciate just being told to give me a jump start at the very least
-are there any usual tells early on either with a probe (i usually pylon scout) or a zealot/stalker poke that can help me tell builds apart? [i guessing something like wall versus no wall, assimilators, marines or marauders on the ramp etc. actually i think that a probe scout is too early to be able to me anything useful besides whether or not i'm being cheesed but i'm pretty sure you can't get a probe past a ramp past a certain amount of time. oh! and is it worth it to gas steal all the time or only when i go for a three gate expo?]
-what are the gas timings of terran usually like? [what exactly does 0/1/2 gas mean at different harvester numbers mean? i usually just think that if i see one marauder and gas that i'm going to get three raxed or something]
-is there a difference between the reactions to fast expo builds? [i kind of feel like an early rax expo puts the terran player so much further ahead of me economically if i three gate robo against it every time]
-am i just supposed to rush out an observer? how many gates can i squeeze in before having to make the obs?[i dont usually make the robo until after at least my second gate; is that too late?]
-can hallucination work too or is it too big an investment considering that i'm probably going to make a robo anyway? [200 extra gas from hallu research plus at least one sentry plus time factors dont seem too advantageous versus just pumping out a robo and one obs especially not that they're cheaper]
-when i get the observer into his base what am i supposed to be looking for? [QQ]
-how can i tell when a terran is going to push out? [is there a certain three tank two science vessel ball type thing that i'm looking for like a certain number of marauders or medivacs or hellions or something or is it based purely on what the T scouts.]
-are there any timings that i can abuse or should take advantage of? [like pushing a bit before 9 minutes against a zerg]
-are there builds that i can just use so i can rely on pure macro to get me past a certain point in the game so it doesnt even matter what i get from scouting? [i think the 1 gate FE is one of those builds because from what i gather 6 gates can defend against a polt push with pure mass... but my high diamond friend scared me into switching builds with the two repair thor push which just mauled my 1 gate FE before scv priority was fixed. i'd like to mention that i prefer to stick to gateway units but i can't seem to be able to skip colossi without dying to a well-timed push]
jic you want to know, i usually play a 1gate/3 gate fe or a gate-gate-robo-gate but, again, i usually prefer to focus on gateway units cuz that's what i'm used to (though stalkers are no dragoons...) but now i'm thinking maybe i should just switch to a gate-robo then expo kind of like what build someone made a thread about just so i can get an obs out early enough. any help will be appreciated thanks every/anybody :D i know this is kind of like me being asked to be spoon fed but i was able to turn my friend into a D+ player within a couple of months by "spoon feeding" him and i'd appreciate being able to do the same with a little help also, just in case you wanted to know; i haven't had time to ladder much cuz i'm usually busy with school but i was placed in platinum and, about fifty games in, i'm still hanging around there partly because of the weakness of my game versus T. if i don't rush the terran; i can't win and i don't want to just four gate into diamond [i haven't four gate all-ined in a ladder game against a terran or zerg in my life; hope you can forgive me for doing in vP hehe]. thanks again!
ps- is there a reason why people don't send their probes to cross positions first on 4 player maps? i thought that everyone did that but i've noticed that people don't do that in replays anymore... i didn't use the search function for this question ;P
The main thing I always look for when scouting terrans (as zerg, but I feel it still applies).
1) 2 rax/Proxy Rax. Anything super agressive I feel I need to know is coming. 2) Gas timings. Refinery rax usually means fast fact. Double gas is either a sign of quick seige/blue flame/ or cloaked banshees. No gas is probably going to be a FE (if he's not 2 raxing), simmilarly I feel cut workers on one gas is also going to be a FE. I feel the fast double gas is especially important as zerg, as I feel I need a fast lair in case of banshees, I don't play toss but I'm guessing a fast robotics would be prudent. 3)Rax count. When I'm poking a scout at the wall after the initial scouting period, rax count/addons are important. 3 rax? Make a lot of units. 1 rax but no expand going up? Tech opening. Tech labs? Reapers and/or marauders. Either way, it's not a tech opening, or at least a delayed tech opening.
Bear in mind I'll give possibilities here, not definite rules. Especially in Platinum, as timings are often off. You don't want to read too much into thing, so I'll avoid anything too precise.
Generally speaking,
1 rax, no gas = FE 2 rax, no gas = Marine/SCV All-in, or just a marine attack 1 rax then gas = Marauders of some sort Gas then 1 rax = Probably Hellions 1 rax, 2 gas = Cloak banshees 1 rax reactor = Hellions 1 rax tech lab = Marauders maybe with a reaper
None of these things are concrete, for example 1 rax then gas could be leading into 3rax aggression with marauders/marines/stim timing attack, but it all depends on how long you can keep your probe alive.
Poking up the front with a second probe, or with your initial scout (if you manage to get it out alive) at about the 4min mark is a good gauge of what they're doing.
If they have any marauders you can usually rule out any banshee play, if they have a bunker with marines and no marines around the bunker its almost certainly a teching play of some sort like a hellion drop or banshees (make stalkers as a response to this and look to expand)
If there's any more than one barracks and no command centre they are most likely planning on 3rax aggression because any more raxes than that is not likely to be an expansion.
Again this is all only possibilites, but they are strong possibilites and should fit in with your experiences so far.
In addition, anytime you lose to something, watch the replay, look at the information that you got from your scouting and find out if there was anything in particular the player did thats different to normal builds you see them do, and note it down for future reference.
I play terran so I'm trying to think in reverse and I might not by quite right. You should keep your scout in your opponents base untill the first marine comes out.
No gas can mean a super fast expand from the terran, bunker rush or a scv marine allin. Build heaps of units and atleast one fast sentry. Either you need to hold the attack off or you can go crush the FE. 1 gas tells you almost nothing about the terran play except hes probably not doing an scv marine allin. 2 gas means a teching build probably banshees or thors, make sure you get your robo bay out for obs/immortal.
A wall doesn't tell you much about a terran player because some will use it to hide their tech but others do it out of habit. However if your first scouting scv gets denied by a wall where the second supply depot comes about 2/3 of the way through the barracks that means he hasn't taken his gas. If your opponent does wall a 3gate stargate voidray push can be deadly because you have buildings to charge up on.
I don't understand this next question (reactions to FE) if you 3gate robo a FE you should destroy that expansion otherwise you are a whole base behind.
2 gate robo works, 1 gate 1 robo 1 gate also works. If you have good scouting with your probes at the begining the obs doesn't need to come too quickly.
Hallucination could work but I wouldn't suggest it. Cuts into precious sentry energy.
When you get an obs in the enemies base you can see everything. A giant bio ball means the enemy has a giant bio ball and a starport means flying units.
At platnum I don't think people's builds are that clear cut to rely on a certain timing. I would just try and get the watchtowers under your control untill you get an observer outside their base.
Watch ogsMC for a sick 6gate timing attack vs terran, usually it's the terran using timings against the protoss though.
I HIGHLY recommend you watch this video from Artosis
Very rarely will you be 100% certain what the Terran will do off your scouting Probe (unless he literally throws down 3 racks or an FE in your face)
A bad habit I have (also mentioned in the video), I like going void ray opening whenever I scout a wall off. This is a very bad build if your opponent goes 3racks stim timing.
I highly recommend getting hallucination in all three matchups. It's essentially maphack. That said, in the late early game you are going to need sentry energy, so it doesn't work well for your initial scouting information. hallucination is a really incredible spell in general, however, there are a number of creative uses that you can put it to.
I think the big thing about scouting terran is to say (a) how fast do I need detection and (b) how fast can I get away with expanding, or should I be putting on some pressure.
No gas either means (a) an expansion which you should punish or expand along with or (b) marines play, you can chrono out a stalker and poke in to see how many marines he has (a stalker can soften up marines in the early game and take only some shield damage, almost always worth it. I've been opening up with three stalkers recently and you get a good read on terran as well as doing some harassment of his bio).
Two fast gas (i.e. you get to scout it) means tech, probably something involving a starport. Get detection and expand, then add on more gateways and a stargate to get phoenix which will help against banshee or raven play as well as drops. You can also get voids if he is meching. phoenix are also very useful to harass terran and chase down fleeing medivacs, and the stargate menas you can tech to carriers when you get three bases. Also you get a good read on troop positioning and the phoenixes can help you protect a colossus if you choose to get them, although I like templar better.
If he's not doing either of these things you can just assume he's going to build some stuff and attack you, which you can kill with your totally IMBA sentries and a composition involving only a few stalkers in preference of zealots. Prioritize getting +1 armor unless he is not building any marines for some reason.
Hey guys, thanks for everything; this is all really helpful! Finished a round of exams so I finally have some time to cram a couple of games into ) yeah mehn
For scouting, I usually just scout the front (ramp) with a stalker and I see a lot of info before my observer comes out. And sometimes you can pick off a marine if you are lucky. If you see all marines, all that gas is probably going somewhere, so expect some tech.
-usually its either banshee or tank. Which will determine if you army will be more zlot heavy or stalker heavy.
And people scout the close position first because it allows for more aggressive styles of playing. If I scout close position T/Z on Lost temple, imma 2 gate him for sure.
I dont think its wrong to 4gate, i think its wrong to BLIND 4gate. I am also in plat and I see that there are just a lot of timings that Protoss cannot win without 4gating. For example, Hellion Drop into marine/banshee push. There has been no mid-game counter strat to this and I've been losing to my SILVER friend using this strat, my only solution to this is to hit him so hard with a 4gate timing that he either loses, or is really behind.
Ok, the obvious first, it has already been mentioned so I'll keep it short: you HAVE to find out if they are doing some tech-1/1/1-build or a one/two-rax expansion build as early as possible. Running your scouting-probe up the ramp is usually a good idea, mostly you can tell that they are going for an expansion if there's an early marauder out. Unless you are going for a phoenix-opening or a warpprism-drop (which is awsome btw) you are right in that you have to rush your observer out. Build your robotics as early as possible. I wouldn't recommend getting a 2nd gate first simply because you will only be able to produce one unit out of it before warpgate-tech finishs. Going gate-robo-gate means that the 2nd gate finishs at the same time as warpgate-tech, which is perfectly fine for defending against any early shenanigans. Now it gets more tricky, if you are in fact dealing with a 1/1/1. The problem here is twofold: 1.) On the one hand you have to find out what tech they are doing (still kinda obvious) 2.) On the other hand you have to find out if they are preparing for a timing attack or going harass/macro.
If they are going for a 1/1/1 they can basicly do 4 kinds of techy stuff: a) hellions b) banshees (cloak/no cloak) c) tanks d) thors ( e) battlecruisers - haven't seen them...well...it seems months to me; won't go into it here)
Scouting for hellions is usually easy because you'll mostly see an early stargate without tech-lab producing a medivac and only one rax. When you see a stargate with a tech-lab you can - since the latest patch - see whether or not they are researching cloak. This was a HUGE change for this match-up, you have to be aware of this and react accordingly. Basicly, if the tech-lab doesn't sparkle they are either going for a quick raven or for banshees without cloak. Both means you do NOT have to produce additional observers and can use the gas elsewhere. Scouting thors is easy as well, you just have to find the armory. If it's proxied you can normally still easily determine a thor-tech from the factory with a tech-lab and the lack of any tanks around. Everything else is the currently more and more popular early marine/tank play.
Now for the hard part: how to find out if they are staying defensive and planning on expanding early or if they are planning on rushing you with a bunch of scvs with marines + whatever tech-unit? Maybe I'm wrong here, but realisticly I have to say......you CAN'T! As of now I haven't been able to tell from my observer-intel whether my opponent goes for a timing attack or for a harass + expo style. Obviously if you see him build the CC...but if he is going for a timing attack then you just won't see a CC and will never be able to be 100% certain if the CC isn't just delayed a bit. This problem gets especially painful if your opponent gets a quick raven. Impossible to determine if he goes all-in on you or throws down a CC after your observer is history. The best way I found to deal with this rather messy situation is to play a defensive build. I've switched from 2 gate robo expo to 3 gate robo expo, which means that I generally prepare for the worst "build-wise". Having to cancel your expo isn't that big of a problem if you can "fall back" onto your 3 gates to immediately warp in more zealots. After the 3 gate you should always try to expand, even if you are not sure about any incoming timing-attack. I found that even an "economical" 1/1/1 build normally gets the expo late enough so that the delay of your own expo doesn't really hurt you in the long run. Especially since the economical 1/1/1 relies on harassment-damage to justify the tech-investment, so if you don't lose probes to hellions/banshees you are even a bit ahead because your opponent has "sunk costs" that won't serve any purpose in early late-game (cloak/blue-flame becomes useful again when you are very spread out though).
I'm going to propose a new way of looking at reactionary PvT. Assuming you're playing a standard gate/core, you'll want to get 2 additional gates, a robo, and a nexus at some point, but not necessarily in that order. In fact, almost any order combination of those 4 additional structures (gate x2, robo, nexus) is viable. The order you get them should depend on a mix of both scouting info, and personal preference.
How to scout: - You want to keep your probe alive in his base for as long as you can. Don't just run away as soon as a marine pops out, the scouting information you get for the 10 seconds (or more) after the 1st marine pops out is really really important, and easily worth the cost of that probe. - Always poke up his ramp with your first zealot and/or stalker UNLESS your first probe scouts 1 marine > tech lab or 0 marine > tech lab (because then he can have a marauder with conc shell by the time you poke up the ramp with a stalker).
What to look for with probe scout: - No gas (expo) - get nexus earlier (alternatively this could mean 2 rax marine/scv all in, be careful) - 2nd gas and/or factory starting (tech) - get robo earlier - 2nd barracks starting and/or tech lab (bio) - get additional gates earlier
What to look for with zealot/stalker poke: - CC building and/or a bunker building at nat (expo) - get nexus earlier - few marines or bunker (tech) - get robo earlier - marauders and/or a lot of marines (bio) - get additional gates earlier
Don't just follow a set build order, follow general guidelines and then use in game experience to refine your timings and figure out what kind of playstyle you feel comfortable with.
For example, I am still a big fan of 1 gate FE in PvT. If I scout a tech build, I like to go nexus - robo - gate - gate. If I scout a bio build, I like to go nexus - gate - gate - robo.
On the other hand, some people like the fast robo for faster obs (I think White-Ra does this?). They might go robo - gate - nexus - gate against a 1 rax FE, or robo - gate - gate - delayed nexus against bio/tech (using robo for immortals against bio, and faster obs against tech for possible banshees).
And some people prefer faster gateways no matter what and that's fine too (i.e. TT1). Against bio or FE you can go gate - gate - nexus - robo, which will help defend if it's a 2 or 3 rax, but also you can set up a contain below their ramp if they're FEing. Against tech builds you can go gate - gate - robo - delayed nexus, put pressure on their ramp and possibly even break it, and still get the obs out in time to defend against banshee.
3-4 rax with tech lab and reactor mix. Usually this mean Stim marine marauder push. =>rax, factory with tech lab. Usually this mean siege tank expand. Could be early push. ==>rax,factory,starport. This mean banshee with cloak. get that observer or forge + cannon out. Could also be a weird raven with point defend drone+ stim marine marauder push.
On February 18 2011 02:18 Anihc wrote: On the other hand, some people like the fast robo for faster obs (I think White-Ra does this?). They might go robo - gate - nexus - gate against a 1 rax FE, or robo - gate - gate - delayed nexus against bio/tech (using robo for immortals against bio, and faster obs against tech for possible banshees).
In many of his games I actually see him do (sometimes blindly) gate - gas - robo - gas - gate - gate - nexus. I don't remember exactly, but I think he usually does this in close positions, and I presume it is to defend any serious all in even if components of it may be proxied/hidden and thus maybe not scouted, while preserving the option to immortal 3 gate bust a really early expand.
On the other hand, that build has a slower expand (around 7:00-7:30), so Terran can expand a bit earlier than toss (compared to with other builds), but it doesn't seem like too much of a problem usually, except for very serious 2 base all ins.
EPT
) yeah mehn
