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The first week of this current iccup season I held the #1 position on the ladder for a big part of it. I was actually close second to being the first to reach C. I usually float around B- mark. Sometimes I can give some decent games against A- level players, sometimes I just crumbled to noobs.
The reason I was able to do so well at the start of this season, was for one that I had a lot of time but as well, really abusive builds. I no longer have time because of my university studies so I'm floating around C+ right now playing like a big noob.
So let's get into the interesting part about this: the really abusive builds! In my PvZ my follow up every game was a 2 gate. Now you're probably going to wonder: with opening with the second gateway and the slower tech, am I not vulnerable to muta play or hydra busts or etc..? Well actually the answer to this is no!
Here's how the build goes - vs overpool
8 - pylon at nat
11 - forge
14 - canon (1 or 2, depending on 2 or 6 lings)
15 nexus
15 gate
15 gate
15 pylon
17 zealot
19 assimilator
20 zealot
24 zealot
28 zealot
30 pylon
push out at 34 food with 4 zealots and another making rallied to the zergs natural.
34 core
34 second gas
from here continue makings zealots. when your core finishes, you have many different options from this point. My standard was just throwing down a stargate, getting the citadel and starting +1 weapons. But double stargate follow ups, corsair reaver and even 4 gate dragoons are viable at this point.
vs 12 hatch - if you scout first, you can actually get away with not even making a forge. nexus - gate - gate - pylon - gas ... relying on zeal micro to survive. you can add forge later on. get your forge earlier if you want to be super aggressive and risk losing the zealots, get the forge later if you want to be passive and just force lings/sunks to be made.
why this work vs 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch play
The timing of you pushing out with 4 zealots is so early and it comes right before the lair is about to finish. The zergs reaction is to throw down a sunken and make zerglings. youre zealots arrive before the sunken is complete and you just target it while the zerg makes enough lings to hold you off. your attack location should which ever of the zergs base is closer. This is safe vs early muta because the timing hits just before the lair finishes and at this point, the zerg throwing down the sunken and additional lings actually means he doesn't actually have enough minerals to throw down a spire! And then your late stargate is actually in plenty of time to hold off muta.
why this works against bullshit cheese!
Your timing actually comes in time to hit right before the sweet spot of 2 hatch hydra and 3 hatch hydra. All in ling can be countered by just protecting your canons with a lot of zeals. 2 base lair -> spire can be strong because of the speed of the tech and the nature of throwing down a sunken pretty early to deny scouting.
what you are trying to accomplish
This play really dictates the pace of the game. If done correctly, you will end up with an economical advantage even though you cut a few probes pretty early. It lets you scout your opponent through the use of zealot pressure. it is actually possible to kill his 3rd base (usually not his nat because of the reinforcement distance from the main) through this possible if you micro better than your opponent. even if you get outmicroed, you are still in fine position.
Don't believe me that this works? give it try and at some point...
I will try to play some games when I have some time and upload replays because right now to be honest I don't really feel like sorting through my auto replay folder haha.
PS: if i get good feedback on this guide, i may post more guides on my strategies. Most of which are 100% original builds i come up with, using my own timings and game understanding. please let me know if you would like PvP guides, PvT guides or more PvZ guides of different strategies. again, i will do this when i have time - i do enjoy in making strategical guides but i do not have that much time!
reps are up - a few anyways
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39953
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39954
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39955
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if i was playing and scouted well, i would see your lack of a core , check your 2gateways with a ling, and then make more speedlings while continuing to tech to spire. Throwing down sunkens at the point you mentioned is a terrible move imo, and is probably why you won so many games, because the zerg panicked. Zergling speed should be finished at the time of your attack, so 16lings would be more than enough to defend against it.
many zergs dont scout properly though, so i can see how this would work vs an unsuspecting opponent. The normalish gas timing helps keep him unaware, many zergs would just assume you built the core in your natural (or wherever the lord isnt scouting currently) and not give it a second thought.
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Can you post some pictures of building placement in the nat with this build? It seems to me that with a nexus, 2 gates, a forge, and 2 cannons, things can get highly cluttered.... how do you place it properly on most maps?
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its pretty ez on most maps, place the 2nd gateway right beside the nexus. If you watch pvz vods, many progamers do this in order to be able to warp in templars right to the natural and not have them sniped by mutas.
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^Agreed. There's a lot of early game FE->gimmicky stuff, but most of them get countered by a good lair -> ling speed and scouting.
In this case of 2 gateways, the zerg would be able to defend with lings: 3 hatcheries is enough to make 12 lings from the point you moved out and until you reach the zerg. With the 4-6 lings from the opening, it's enough to hold. Zerg having speed makes you unable to retreat, as well. You can try to edge by a wall, where zerg can't surround, but you still won't be able to do damage.
After holding off your attack with no drone losses, 3hatch spire transition will cripple you.
However, build is still good for situations when you notice that zerg does not have an ovie in both your main and nat; or when it's a bo3 and he showed such behavior in 1st game; etc. As a surprise, and when a zerg is known not to get ling speed early, it can be an easy win.
Idk if 2gate is good or 3gate with delayed gas is better. I'd probably go with 3 gates, since if I have ovies in my main and nat, I won't try to get gas/2gate as no core is a big enough sign. If there's no ovie, might as well 3gate.
Sometimes I do stuff like 3gate zealot -> 5gate goon if I deal some damage, but not enough to win - I'm usually too behind on tech to try sairs or archives by that point. Good zergs I've done this to didn't get their spire delayed: their were happy to severely cut on drones to get the spire, if needed.
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I feel like your build would be more stable if you either stuck with one gate (but didn't cut at all, for a semi-standard ~3 zealot 1 goon poke) or went gate-probe-pylon-probe-gate so that you'd have more probes and your gateways would line up.
Your probe cuts bother me, because low worker counts are particularly disadvantageous when you have so many mineral patches available... you have enough probes to feed two nexuses and two gateways, with appropriate pylons to back them up, but it will take a long time before you can afford tech without cutting back on production.
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Hungary11305 Posts
Sounds interesting, but what about posting some replays?
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interesting, and well writed, its a "real life" build... but ur lack of replays its.. disappointing.
XD nvm, its just a joke, but a couple of reps would be nice.
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I was playing a lot of fighting spirit at the time. so to respond to the comment that when my overlord sees the 2 gate, i make 16 lings and rape the first push. thats all fine and dandy but how often on a 4 player map can you scout in time? actually to scout this in time, you need to scout him first with your first overlord. cross positions you wont be able to figure out what's up, second overlord arrives just a bit too late if its your horizontal or vertical to make the decision of making 16 lings.
now, no i am in no advocating a gimmicky build. if i am scouted first, i still have the option not to do this build or still do it because its still good. i would even do it more than once against the same player. if you just make 16 lings very early and my scouting is strong, i can just keep my four zealots at my natural. economically the zerg is still was still forced to make a bunch of lings early and my follow up would be stargate, citadel, +1 -> 2 archon push. because in this case you did not force the zerg to make the creep colony, he can afford the spire. what this means is that you simply need a canon in your natural and in your main and be super safe with your corsair because that is what is going to allow you to defend muta.
also with that kind of play, i can push out with a faint of pressure a bit later when i have say 8 zealots and then you need even more zerglings / a sunken at nat and 3rd. note that the zerg will not be able to afford 9 mutalisks all at once so basically in the eventually that that does happen a canon and reinforcing corsair + spam canons will defend. you also have the option of reinforcing goons.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39953
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39954
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39955
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On January 13 2011 19:52 Severedevil wrote:
I feel like your build would be more stable if you either stuck with one gate (but didn't cut at all, for a semi-standard ~3 zealot 1 goon poke) or went gate-probe-pylon-probe-gate so that you'd have more probes and your gateways would line up.
Your probe cuts bother me, because low worker counts are particularly disadvantageous when you have so many mineral patches available... you have enough probes to feed two nexuses and two gateways, with appropriate pylons to back them up, but it will take a long time before you can afford tech without cutting back on production.
well your first option isnt really anything different than what is standard. the later gateway would be detrimental because the timing would hit so much later that it doesnt impact the zerg quite as strongly.
the thing about having fewer probes than normal... yes its true, you have all these mineral patches but youre not saturated fully. well think about it this way: the zerg has 3 bases and hes making zerglings, how is his saturation?
the way i think of this build is kind of like a 10/12 gate. its designed to control the play and gain an economical advantage.
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On January 13 2011 17:17 Soulforged wrote:
^Agreed. There's a lot of early game FE->gimmicky stuff, but most of them get countered by a good lair -> ling speed and scouting.
In this case of 2 gateways, the zerg would be able to defend with lings: 3 hatcheries is enough to make 12 lings from the point you moved out and until you reach the zerg. With the 4-6 lings from the opening, it's enough to hold. Zerg having speed makes you unable to retreat, as well. You can try to edge by a wall, where zerg can't surround, but you still won't be able to do damage.
After holding off your attack with no drone losses, 3hatch spire transition will cripple you.
However, build is still good for situations when you notice that zerg does not have an ovie in both your main and nat; or when it's a bo3 and he showed such behavior in 1st game; etc. As a surprise, and when a zerg is known not to get ling speed early, it can be an easy win.
Idk if 2gate is good or 3gate with delayed gas is better. I'd probably go with 3 gates, since if I have ovies in my main and nat, I won't try to get gas/2gate as no core is a big enough sign. If there's no ovie, might as well 3gate.
Sometimes I do stuff like 3gate zealot -> 5gate goon if I deal some damage, but not enough to win - I'm usually too behind on tech to try sairs or archives by that point. Good zergs I've done this to didn't get their spire delayed: their were happy to severely cut on drones to get the spire, if needed.
actually it hits just before ling speed and it hits before the zerg can hatch a bunch of eggs (they are still morphing when zeals arrive vs 6 lings) i uploaded reps so things like this can be more clear
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On January 14 2011 00:20 foppa wrote:
I was playing a lot of fighting spirit at the time. so to respond to the comment that when my overlord sees the 2 gate, i make 16 lings and rape the first push. thats all fine and dandy but how often on a 4 player map can you scout in time? actually to scout this in time, you need to scout him first with your first overlord. cross positions you wont be able to figure out what's up, second overlord arrives just a bit too late if its your horizontal or vertical to make the decision of making 16 lings.
Scout with lings on pool first openers -_-. You'll have them just when a 2 gate is sending the first zealot+probe(s). Always.
now, no i am in no advocating a gimmicky build.
Actually, yeah you kinda are. This build is one of those "try to fool them" builds that never works on anybody that's experienced. I have my doubts this would yield more than a 40% winning percentage past even C- on servers like Brainclan.
i can just keep my four zealots at my natural.
Cool. Then your forge/cannons and nat nexus are delayed. Signs of any of them going up would cue any decent opponent that you are no longer committed to zealot-all-inning anytime soon. A big flaw in theorycrafters is they speak as if their opponents will never ever see what's coming. Unless you're beating A- and higher (iccup) or C- and higher (BrainClan) with more than a 60-70% success rate, its not a "tried-n-true" build as you're making it out to be.
also with that kind of play, i can push out with a faint of pressure a bit later when i have say 8 zealots and then you need even more zerglings / a sunken at nat and 3rd.
He'll have mutas waiting, or he'll just make more lings. Either way this wouldn't do any more damage than a +1 speedzeal push and I have a feeling the timing wouldn't be too far off either. In the meantime, you'd be spending mins on zeals/pylons instead of cannons or a tech route. Long story short, I just don't see any decent opponents that you played this vs.
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On January 14 2011 01:21 Diminotoor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 00:20 foppa wrote:
I was playing a lot of fighting spirit at the time. so to respond to the comment that when my overlord sees the 2 gate, i make 16 lings and rape the first push. thats all fine and dandy but how often on a 4 player map can you scout in time? actually to scout this in time, you need to scout him first with your first overlord. cross positions you wont be able to figure out what's up, second overlord arrives just a bit too late if its your horizontal or vertical to make the decision of making 16 lings. Scout with lings on pool first openers -_-. You'll have them just when a 2 gate is sending the first zealot+probe(s). Always. Actually, yeah you kinda are. This build is one of those "try to fool them" builds that never works on anybody that's experienced. I have my doubts this would yield more than a 40% winning percentage past even C- on servers like Brainclan. Cool. Then your forge/cannons and nat nexus are delayed. Signs of any of them going up would cue any decent opponent that you are no longer committed to zealot-all-inning anytime soon. A big flaw in theorycrafters is they speak as if their opponents will never ever see what's coming. Unless you're beating A- and higher (iccup) or C- and higher (BrainClan) with more than a 60-70% success rate, its not a "tried-n-true" build as you're making it out to be. Show nested quote +also with that kind of play, i can push out with a faint of pressure a bit later when i have say 8 zealots and then you need even more zerglings / a sunken at nat and 3rd. He'll have mutas waiting, or he'll just make more lings. Either way this wouldn't do any more damage than a +1 speedzeal push and I have a feeling the timing wouldn't be too far off either. In the meantime, you'd be spending mins on zeals/pylons instead of cannons or a tech route. Long story short, I just don't see any decent opponents that you played this vs.
how are zerglings going to be able to see behind a normal canon forge gateway wall?
its not gimmicky, its a really strong opening, please give a game and i will show you even when you know its coming its still good
why is my nat nexus delayed or my forge or my canons? how is it all-in?
mutas wont be out lmao, i have played these timings, you have not. if you want to see how it works, please lets play. oh are you a decent opponent? because what you said doesn't make all that much sense.
i'm kind of confused.. did you read the guide and just assume i am advocating 2 gateway expand?
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Zerglings aren't what look behind a forge/cannon/gate wall. Overlords are. Yes, its gimmicky because it involves a tactic that relies largely on the element of surprise and catching a Z offguard. I'm only a C- on iccup so I wouldn't be a good test subject. Try it vs like LRM)Game or some of the Korean A- or go on Brainclan and show us reps of you vs like 1a2a3a[fou] and then you'll have examples worth citing.
According to your own BO, this is a simple variation of a FE build. Its kind of like Bisu's current style trend of utilizing speedlots to prevent the Z from reaching the critical macro point, but its less stable with worse economy and less powerful strikes. I stand corrected on the nat nexus, forge, and cannons being delayed, I misread your original post.
My point still remains however that you haven't tested it against anybody significant and had this build yield a decent win rate. Also, upon closer analysis, I've actually faced a BO that was very similar to this one. This is probably one of the long-since-discarded variations of FE that you're just thinking you "just came up with".
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On January 14 2011 02:42 Diminotoor wrote:
Zerglings aren't what look behind a forge/cannon/gate wall. Overlords are. Yes, its gimmicky because it involves a tactic that relies largely on the element of surprise and catching a Z offguard. I'm only a C- on iccup so I wouldn't be a good test subject. Try it vs like LRM)Game or some of the Korean A- or go on Brainclan and show us reps of you vs like 1a2a3a[fou] and then you'll have examples worth citing.
According to your own BO, this is a simple variation of a FE build. Its kind of like Bisu's current style trend of utilizing speedlots to prevent the Z from reaching the critical macro point, but its less stable with worse economy and less powerful strikes. I stand corrected on the nat nexus, forge, and cannons being delayed, I misread your original post.
My point still remains however that you haven't tested it against anybody significant and had this build yield a decent win rate. Also, upon closer analysis, I've actually faced a BO that was very similar to this one. This is probably one of the long-since-discarded variations of FE that you're just thinking you "just came up with".
your point is really bad. just because i can't beat an ex-progamer, doesn't make it a bad build lol. because they outclass me in every way, no matter what i do, i am not going to win. they are just simply better than me. also lrm)game plays random so i can't forge fast expand against him. i have played him a few times and we have had some decent games but thats beside the point
also in the reps i posted, 2 of them were vs a B+ high zerg. pretty close to a- lol
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United States10774 Posts
are you talking about lols123? he looks nothing close to a b+, currently barely above 50% at c+. i am not sure if that's the same guy as smi.lols but if he loses to this build TWICE (after losing it to once) then he has some serious issues in his play.
not a bad build for ladder purposes and mixing-up your play for series matches, though.
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On January 14 2011 04:28 OneOther wrote:
are you talking about lols123? he looks nothing close to a b+, currently barely above 50% at c+. i am not sure if that's the same guy as smi.lols but if he loses to this build TWICE (after losing it to once) then he has some serious issues in his play.
not a bad build for ladder purposes and mixing-up your play for series matches, though.
yea i realize he's not in form either but neither am i so.. lol
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hoho yes I do play random, but if you asked me to pick I would.
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On January 14 2011 06:18 Game wrote:
hoho yes I do play random, but if you asked me to pick I would.
i dont want to be one of f*gs that says no random :p
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On January 14 2011 00:27 foppa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2011 19:52 Severedevil wrote:
I feel like your build would be more stable if you either stuck with one gate (but didn't cut at all, for a semi-standard ~3 zealot 1 goon poke) or went gate-probe-pylon-probe-gate so that you'd have more probes and your gateways would line up.
Your probe cuts bother me, because low worker counts are particularly disadvantageous when you have so many mineral patches available... you have enough probes to feed two nexuses and two gateways, with appropriate pylons to back them up, but it will take a long time before you can afford tech without cutting back on production. the later gateway would be detrimental because the timing would hit so much later that it doesnt impact the zerg quite as strongly.
Really? By going 15 gate 16 pylon 17 gate, you diminish your rush by less than a zealot, and any reinforcements you send would come in twos.
It's possible I'm mistaken, but it looks much cleaner to me. I hate having gateways out of sync.
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EPT
