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After the Nestea vs Rain match, there was Ret's quote which has been stated several times:
people who keep talking about 'hatch first' really don't have a clue.. 2 rax constant marines dominates pool first so bad because there's only so few larve off 1 hatch untill after the first queen inject...the marines can just push you back non stop till that first inject finishes and you are in danger of being bunker blocked
not to mention you have to blindly make ~20 lings in that case so if terran just stops after 5 mariens and puts down a CC you are economically fucked
nestea fucked up his drone/ling control pretty bad there but hatch first is the only choice really...hency why steppes is auto loss vs terran, im sure nestea expected to lose set 2
LASTEST EDIT: I'm now noticing a trend in GSL4 where alot of zerg's seem to be going pool first against terran (for example, Jinro vs Idra, Cliiiide vs Idra). Has the thinking shifted? Do more pro-level zergs prefer pool first now?
EDIT: After reading some of the replies, I now fully understand what Ret is trying to say. He and Idra spent countless of hours testing the zerg responses to 2-rax and they found "hatch first" to be the best. Thus, anyone who says "go pool first to counter 2-rax" have got it wrong then. The korean zergs all probably have gone down a similar path to Ret and Idra which is why they all seem to want to hatch first as well. In the case of JulyZerg, he is playing an inferior opening against 2-rax, but the opening probably suits his playstyle, which explains his choice. I'm thus now more focused on the 2nd part of his statement, where the claim is that the zerg will be totally behind if they play safe (i.e. make spines/lings). Is this really so? Has this been tested in high level play?
I'm interested if this sentiment (where 'hatch first' is done for safety rather than economy) is shared amongst the pros. For example, Artosis prefers the pool first. And JulyZerg does the pool-speed opening which leads me to believe that he considers that safer? Has the JulyZerg opening been tested extensively in the upper echelons of the ladder?
The current thinking amongst the pros (except Jinro!) is that in the lategame terran is a disadvantage to zerg. My evidence for this is the "all-in mentality" of the terrans. Thus, is it a bad thing that the zerg has to blindly build lings/spines in order to survive? The economic hit that the zerg takes will slow down econ/tech and may be what is needed to give the terrans a boost in the mid/lategame. Perhaps this may be the next stage the TvZ matchup evolution -> the zerg goes more defensive (lings/spines blindly) and beats back the terran all-ins -> terran responds by playing economic -> we will then know if the early-game hit to the economy is enough to make terran more competitive in the lategame?
Steppes has traditionally been considered a hard map against terran but maybe it's time to challenge this "auto loss" mentality? This is because the map stats show it differently where the zergs have been doing pretty well in this map so far when they opened defensively.
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idra agrees completely.
Even saying he (and Ret) spent a whole week (that's 100hours of play) trying to counter marine scv all ins and hatch first turned out on top.
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Jinro agrees as well.
And i think Artosis would agree now as well, even though he was against it at the start of GSL (so was idra i believe)
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On December 07 2010 17:01 Gotmog wrote:
Jinro agrees as well.
And i think Artosis would agree now as well, even though he was against it at the start of GSL (so was idra i believe)
It is quite amazing how quickly Artosis went from "If you went hatch first and they want to kill it, they can" to "if you place a spine crawler or two, with good ling control, you can fend it off every time."
But yes, I agree, hatch first is what zergs have to do. They are a macro race, period.
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He's exaggerating. If a terran feigns pressure then drops a CC then yeah, you'll be economically behind if you don't bother reacting. That's exactly why they do it. You won't stay behind for long once you realize Terran can't pressure you though.
No one really wanted to see Nestea lose to a bunch of all ins but Rain was just playing the odds and they came out in his favor. It's hard to blame him but this post from Ret came off more as whining to me than anything.
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I think Idra stopped it perfectly vs IMMVP on blistering sands. But he saw the expansion going up. If he didn't he would just have to flip a coin. Making zerglings or drones? Is he going to atack or expand? I think that's the stupid part about this build. You can't sac an overlord at 20 supply -.- Not that it will work because there will be 10 marines there to stop the overlord from seeing anything.
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United States2096 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:08 TexSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:01 Gotmog wrote:
Jinro agrees as well.
And i think Artosis would agree now as well, even though he was against it at the start of GSL (so was idra i believe) It is quite amazing how quickly Artosis went from "If you went hatch first and they want to kill it, they can" to "if you place a spine crawler or two, with good ling control, you can fend it off every time." But yes, I agree, hatch first is what zergs have to do. They are a macro race, period.
Have you been listening to different casts? Artosis has been saying that it's suicide until very recently. He took a really long time to even acknowledge hatch first as even being potentially safe.
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On December 07 2010 17:08 TexSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:01 Gotmog wrote:
Jinro agrees as well.
And i think Artosis would agree now as well, even though he was against it at the start of GSL (so was idra i believe) It is quite amazing how quickly Artosis went from "If you went hatch first and they want to kill it, they can" to "if you place a spine crawler or two, with good ling control, you can fend it off every time." But yes, I agree, hatch first is what zergs have to do. They are a macro race, period.
I just want to point out, that isn't the kind of thing you can criticize. If someone is able to criticize something because it seems wrong, but realize that they made an error in judgment and take back that criticism, isn't that a good thing?
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On December 07 2010 17:10 Endorsed wrote:
I think Idra stopped it perfectly vs IMMVP on blistering sands. But he saw the expansion going up. If he didn't he would just have to flip a coin. Making zerglings or drones? Is he going to atack or expand? I think that's the stupid part about this build. You can't sac an overlord at 20 supply -.- Not that it will work because there will be 10 marines there to stop the overlord from seeing anything.
This is another aspect of what I'm trying to point out. Is it imperative that the zergs flip a coin? Would it be better for them if they played safer? Once their overlord scout reaches the terran natural, they can then make the decision to resume droning or make units? As I mentioned in the OP, this may be what evens out the middlegame battle.
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On December 07 2010 17:18 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 17:08 TexSC wrote:On December 07 2010 17:01 Gotmog wrote:
Jinro agrees as well.
And i think Artosis would agree now as well, even though he was against it at the start of GSL (so was idra i believe) It is quite amazing how quickly Artosis went from "If you went hatch first and they want to kill it, they can" to "if you place a spine crawler or two, with good ling control, you can fend it off every time." But yes, I agree, hatch first is what zergs have to do. They are a macro race, period. Have you been listening to different casts? Artosis has been saying that it's suicide until very recently. He took a really long time to even acknowledge hatch first as even being potentially safe.
It's not about it being safe. It isn't safe in any way but it's required. A zerg on one base does not get enough larvae to make lings AND drones to fend off the second wave of marines / scvs. It hits before baneling tech and the only thing that can stop it at that point in the game is spine(s) + queen + lings which you can only get on time if you 14/15 hatch. Alternatively you can 15pool 14 hatch or somethnig but then the first attack really gets almost impossible to hold because there wont be a spine up in time.
The timings of the defenses that zerg needs to have are so tight that on current maps it's almost impossible to play. Even on shakuras a terran can do this effectively which says something about the state of TvZ.
In my honest opinion marines are too good early game vs zerg. The fact that marines in high numbers can kill any zerg unit early game with ease is not ok. You see the same thing vs protoss but they have a way of defending and holding out until they get anti marine units such as colossus or templars. But if a toss went pure gate units and attacked a marine army with stim out int he open he would get so raped its not even funny. Marines simply burn through everything. Their downside is that they are very fragile but that's why people use scvs / marauders in front for tanking purposes. I'm not saying nerf the marine as they are a core unit to terrans but atleast look into how scvs and marines work together.
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Ret is right - You need the larva really desperately. Once the Zerg finde out how to counter the 2rax build, ie. how many spinecrawlers or lings or queens or whatever the real problem appears.
You can't scout the terran. You have to gamble, because Terran can transition into 4rax as easily as into CC.
I honestly don't know how the zerg will correctly react to that.
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On December 07 2010 17:40 LLuke wrote:
Ret is right - You need the larva really desperately. Once the Zerg finde out how to counter the 2rax build, ie. how many spinecrawlers or lings or queens or whatever the real problem appears.
You can't scout the terran. You have to gamble, because Terran can transition into 4rax as easily as into CC.
I honestly don't know how the zerg will correctly react to that.
Or into 2 fac blueflame helion. That opening is sick as it can also crank out tanks early vs banelings and thors early vs any sort of muta shenanigans. The helions also pretty much rape even speedlings when there are marines around. In no way can a zerg combat that force or be aggressive against it. Meanwhile the terran takes his expansion and is still ahead on econ on one base because of mules and his sheer scv numbers (compared to the extremely low drones counts we see from zergs against this build).
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is 2nd hatch in the main not viable? spine crawler at the ramp?
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Here's the sentiment I'm hearing around the forum: zerg have to figure out how to deal with a shitload of different harass and push, and if he survives to mid game zerg is unstoppable. Why don't we just stop the game at mid game them. Just have a timer that announce zerg as winner if he's alive at 20 minutes. Saves time!
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drdrdrdrdrdrdrd You are really dumb and thats not the case at all. Zerg can have a huge ling bling muta army and make one missmicro or poor decision and lose to a rag tag medivac tank mmm.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 07 2010 17:55 NeRzyMan wrote:
drdrdrdrdrdrdrd You are really dumb and thats not the case at all. Zerg can have a huge ling bling muta army and make one missmicro or poor decision and lose to a rag tag medivac tank mmm.
And the same isn't true of the Terran? Attack moving marines and tanks into banelings is viable? Please try to maintain at least a little objectivity while posting.
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On December 07 2010 17:49 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Here's the sentiment I'm hearing around the forum: zerg have to figure out how to deal with a shitload of different harass and push, and if he survives to mid game zerg is unstoppable. Why don't we just stop the game at mid game them. Just have a timer that announce zerg as winner if he's alive at 20 minutes. Saves time!
Because sentiments on the forum are wrong.
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Didnt ret and idra also come up with the idea of skipping the second ovie incase of pressure so you had an.extra.larva and minerals to throw down a spine, i feel that this strat will become more and more popular.
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Sorry NeRzy T. Man, if that is your real name.... You could say that about any race.
Playing zerg is not some kinda secret code you have to desypher.
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I just don't believe this to be true.
Another post has shown that 11 overpool is better for economy than any other build. It would also get you spinecrawler earlier - which can be moved afterwards.
Personally I think that 14 gas, 14 pool, speedling into baneling (bust if bustable - and that hits right before hellions can be out with 2 rax opening, and beats marines off 2 rax) is the correct counter to this non-stimmed, non-upgraded, marinepush with SCV's.
One thing is if you don't know it's coming (the push) - then it's almost an all-in gamble (even though you can recover, well, you can't really unless you do serious damage with it), but in the final match, everyone knew it was coming, including, I am sure, the players.
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EPT
