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Zomg, missclick... need to finish writing 
EDIT: Ok, here's the actual thread:
I'd like some feedback (no pun intended) on a pretty simple idea I've had for a while now. I am a 2100 rated EU Protoss player, so mediocre at best. I've enjoyed this game since the beta and although I've toyed with all of the races, I keep coming back to Protoss (maybe it's just the RPer in me ).
We have all heard the Protoss cries for attention, warranted or not. The issue that has been publicized the most, I feel, is the cloaked banshee opening by Terran that very effectively forces the Protoss player into robo-tech for Observers. While cannons can be an effective deterrent, once banshee numbers start climbing they no longer suffice - not to mention you cannot leave your base at all without mobile detection.
But what if it was possible to counter cloak without detection? Enter the High Templar.
What is the first thing that comes to mind with these iconic Protoss warriors? Psi-storm. Feedback, even though I think it's one of the coolest abilities in the game, doesn't get much press. It is designed as a counter to "caster" units - such as ghosts, ravens and banshees and does so admirably. Currently it's in the form of a targeted spell.
Here are the changes to Feedback I suggest:
-make Feedback an AoE spell with the same range and radius as EMP
-introduce an ENERGY CAP for how much energy Feedback can burn and set it to 200
What we have here is an AoE Feedback that will never burn more than 200 energy. Here's an example situation:
A) We have 5 Ghosts closing in on a single High Templar. The ghosts are packed close together and the Templar manages to cast Feedback on them before EMP is launched (better micro or whatever reason). Each of those 5 ghosts in the AoE will have 40 energy drained and sustain 40 damage.
B) A single Ghost faces a High Templar. Feedback hits. The Ghost is completely drained of energy (200) and dies.
What are the problems this solves? The major benefit of such a mechanic is that you can target it on ground - which means that a High Templar can strip a cloaked banshee of it's remaining energy and reveal it, providing a counter to banshee cloak without direct detection.
Secondly, it somewhat "rebalances" the Ghost-High Templar dynamic - with this change, Feedback and EMP would have the EXACT same range, allowing Templar to hold their own against Ghosts in small numbers.
I hope posters will have read the entire post and actually understood the changes. In other words, behind every "OMG THIS CHANGE IS IMBA 1 HT NOW INSTAKILL 5000 GHOSTS IN AOE WTF" is a poster that has NOT understood the changes suggested.
I think this is an elegant solution that would add to the diversity of the PvT matchup by enabling Protoss non-robo play with at least a diminished chance of a build order loss. Please comment constructively.
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I like the idea of AOE feedback... but I think it's still stronger in its current form. The range and the instant effect are so powerful. Since storm is so awful these days, feedback is definitely the best spell the HT has right now.
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A cooldown could be added as well, if deemed necessary. I don't know what you mean about Storm being awful though, if anything it's even more awesome these days than before (as seen in the DH finals).
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On November 29 2010 02:42 lowercase wrote:
Since storm is so awful these days, feedback is definitely the best spell the HT has right now.
lolwut?
Storm and Amulet together pretty much spell gg for terrans/zerg. Feedback is useful against certain units, but storm completely owns the enemy army.
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I reall like the idea, it's not OP at all and makes perfect sense.
I hope blizzard make a slight protoss buff in feedback regard.
I'm saying it just balance wise, i'm not even a protoss player
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
I like this idea! At the very least we'll see more use of feedback, and perhaps less blanket storms all around. A lot of Toss users I talk to complain that it's easier to emp a templar than it is to feedback a ghost, and obviously that's true because EMP is an AoE but they claim its also really hard to see a ghost in a bio ball while templar are easily spotted.
Perhaps the caps should be lowered a little bit so that it's not as good as 1 normal feedback, especially with the range buff (I think feedback has a lower range than EMP?) but other than that it'd really open up TvP!
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I'm not sure how you can have an issue with feedback in it's current form, it's one of the very best spells in the game. I use it ALL the time, and on cloaked and uncloaked units. Just bring an observer with your army if you are worried about cloaked ghosts. Most good Terran's won't cloak the Ghost any ways because A: It wastes valuable energy for more EMP's, and B: They know you should have an obs anyways.
If you are scared of Banshee harass one cannon and HT at each expo can shut that down 100%. Feedback the Banshee, warp in Stalkers, rinse, repeat.
Again I got to disagree wholeheartedly here as Feedback is something I use ALL the time and if you use it right it may very well be one of the very best spells in the game.
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I had a similar idea though I'm a terrible player myself, to Diamond I think the OP is just saying that this makes a Templar opening more viable so players don't have to open Robotics just to be super safe and avoid a complete build order loss to cloaked Banshees if they do go Templar. I like this idea so we get to see other tech more often.
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On November 29 2010 03:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I'm not sure how you can have an issue with feedback in it's current form, it's one of the very best spells in the game. I use it ALL the time, and on cloaked and uncloaked units. Just bring an observer with your army if you are worried about cloaked ghosts. Most good Terran's won't cloak the Ghost any ways because A: It wastes valuable energy for more EMP's, and B: They know you should have an obs anyways.
If you are scared of Banshee harass one cannon and HT at each expo can shut that down 100%. Feedback the Banshee, warp in Stalkers, rinse, repeat.
Again I got to disagree wholeheartedly here as Feedback is something I use ALL the time and if you use it right it may very well be one of the very best spells in the game.
Thank You, A true voice of reason!
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On November 29 2010 03:27 peeeky wrote:
I had a similar idea though I'm a terrible player myself, to Diamond I think the OP is just saying that this makes a Templar opening more viable so players don't have to open Robotics just to be super safe and avoid a complete build order loss to cloaked Banshees if they do go Templar. I like this idea so we get to see other tech more often.
See I can't really buy that excuse 100%. Just add a Forge and 1-2 cannons. The actual detection range on cannons is pretty long and once the Banshee is feedback'd, it's screwed. When you go HT, you WILL have an excess of minerals that need to go. So just get the forge, a couple cannons, and later ont he upgrades you can get from the Forge are super useful.
I used to do a lot of HT openings and I never found a way you don't have an extra 400 or so minerals anyways.
On November 29 2010 03:06 Wunder wrote:
but they claim its also really hard to see a ghost in a bio ball while templar are easily spotted
Turn on health bars, Ghosts are VERY easy to find after doing this.
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On November 29 2010 03:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I'm not sure how you can have an issue with feedback in it's current form, it's one of the very best spells in the game. I use it ALL the time, and on cloaked and uncloaked units. Just bring an observer with your army if you are worried about cloaked ghosts. Most good Terran's won't cloak the Ghost any ways because A: It wastes valuable energy for more EMP's, and B: They know you should have an obs anyways.
If you are scared of Banshee harass one cannon and HT at each expo can shut that down 100%. Feedback the Banshee, warp in Stalkers, rinse, repeat.
Again I got to disagree wholeheartedly here as Feedback is something I use ALL the time and if you use it right it may very well be one of the very best spells in the game.
you didnt read the point of the thread, he said banshees force robo tech from toss every game and feedback could be a potential solution to add dynamic play.
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i don't understand why protoss users think they shouldn't be forced to get a robo when the terran's build threatens banshees. if cloaked banshees could be countered by anything but pure warp gate, what would be the point of them?
Here's a way to rephrase your argument from a terran point of view: in a typical game, protoss getting colossus forces vikings, or terran loses. so why not increase diversity and allow ghosts to snipe colossus as well as bio units? this way terran could go ghosts to deal with colossus instead of being forced down the viking route so we don't see MMM+viking every game. We could start seeing large groups of ghosts instead of just a few. wouldn't that be interesting?
no, it wouldn't. Because then terran would just go MMM+ghost every single game with no fear of colossi countering. if you made feedback counter cloaked banshees without obs, protoss could rush to templar tech every game and skip robo completely, since now templar on their own counter every terran unit even without detection.
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On November 29 2010 03:21 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I'm not sure how you can have an issue with feedback in it's current form, it's one of the very best spells in the game. I use it ALL the time, and on cloaked and uncloaked units. Just bring an observer with your army if you are worried about cloaked ghosts. Most good Terran's won't cloak the Ghost any ways because A: It wastes valuable energy for more EMP's, and B: They know you should have an obs anyways.
If you are scared of Banshee harass one cannon and HT at each expo can shut that down 100%. Feedback the Banshee, warp in Stalkers, rinse, repeat.
Again I got to disagree wholeheartedly here as Feedback is something I use ALL the time and if you use it right it may very well be one of the very best spells in the game.
I don't have an issue with Feedback in it's current form. As I said, it's one of my favorite spells in the game and I'm well aware of it's power. I never said Feedback wasn't used enough. I'm not trying to to improve Feedback at what it already does with this suggestion, in fact I'm trying to have it remain as similar as possible in this respect - I thought the energy cap made that abundantly clear. The idea is to expand Feedback's functionality, to allow a Protoss player to counter a cloaked Banshee without detection.
The effect the change would have on the Ghost - HT dynamic I only brought up because it's a very obvious topic and required clarification. What I'm trying to say here is that I do not think the dynamic would be imbalanced by this change. And what I gather from your response you don't either.
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I don't think this would change much, opening to templar tech in my eyes would be worse than opening with a robo. There's a much longer build time to get there and more importantly you really can't afford to produce templar's off one base and would just get rolled over by any push the terran makes with all that money invested into a very expensive tech tree. I think almost every game would end up with toss opening with a robo if they felt threatened by banshees, just like it is now.
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United States12607 Posts
Proposed game change threads are generally not welcome in SC2 General. Sorry.
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EPT
