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Active: 852 users

Patrol Splitting: I'm no MVP

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
November 08 2010 22:49 GMT
#1
So I've been having issues with banelings TvZ. Who hasn't. Marine versus Baneling is just something that the Terran player has to learn to live with. I have come up with a bit of a solution to make the Terran's life a bit easier.

Firstly I loaded up the unit tester and put 25 banelings against 40 marines. A fair fight and one you may find yourself in at some point in the game.

http://i.imgur.com/o4MTy.jpg

The results of this battle are as follows: 4 banelings survived
(Note: this is a simple a-move versus a-move encounter)

http://i.imgur.com/h67JJ.jpg


Now here is my Marine ball "p" moving towards the enemy banes. Notice how it is in zig-zags. I noticed if you patrol a large cluster of units they will automatically spread out. This is decent for attacking but far better for setting up automatically split defense.

http://i.imgur.com/CHzTE.jpg

Here is my marine ball once engaged. I quickly realized if you don't tell your marines to hold position you accomplish very little splitting, almost as bad as simply a-moving. So once the first marine engages to pull the army towards him I simply told the entire pack to hold position, here is the resulting formation.

http://i.imgur.com/knObL.jpg

And here is the aftermath. 4 marines survive with very little health. Not great but better than 4 banes surviving.

http://i.imgur.com/fQHnb.jpg



When I first got this idea into my head I was honestly hoping for something similar to magic box mutalisk. I'd set the patrol to spread my army, move behind the banes and tell them to stop. I couldn't quite get that to work in the unit tester. Maybe it was the small map size, maybe it simply doesn't work since all the marines want to converge to a central point. I'm not sure. I'm by no means saying this will instantly give you Marine vs Baneling levels of micro that FoxeR or MVP have but this could be a suitable "everyman" solution.
Wat
Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
November 08 2010 22:51 GMT
#2
I have to run out for a bit but I'll be back soon'ish to answer any possible questions or concerns so I'm not an abandonist OP
Wat
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 22:58:04
November 08 2010 22:57 GMT
#3
Is baneling speed there? I dont know any zerg who would get that many and not have it. Hard to tell if this is effective unless someone can show replays of this.
IamBach
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1059 Posts
November 08 2010 23:01 GMT
#4
there is clearly no banling speed
Just listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lCZeePG48
dark88
Profile Joined June 2010
United States35 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-08 23:05:38
November 08 2010 23:04 GMT
#5
I was practicing on that same map. It's harder because of how small it is, but you can change to the base raid layout in that map, and its a bit bigger and easy to micro.

I was trying a concept sending them all to the side, then shift-click on a wireframe unit to deselect him, and move the rest back some more. Then, one by one, just keep shift-clicking another unit out of the group as you keep moving around.

It works ok, but without stim, it's still very difficult and requires lots of practice.
Selkie
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States530 Posts
November 08 2010 23:05 GMT
#6
Hey!

Interesting post- have you tried to see what happens once stim + combat shields are in place? (Stim without combat shields means banes 1 shot marines, which would be bad.)

Secondly, the baneling speed thing- is it on?

Thanks
Ptur
Profile Joined July 2010
Ukraine85 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 11:59:29
November 08 2010 23:07 GMT
#7
doesnt seem reliable during a real game
KillerPlague
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1386 Posts
November 08 2010 23:07 GMT
#8
sucky thing is vs any other zerg units you want your marines clustered for the added dps
Side 1: Why no dominant players with 90% win ratio Side 2: Nerf Side 1
Wargizmo
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia1237 Posts
November 08 2010 23:11 GMT
#9

Interesting, I think patrol is definitely underused in this game. I'm going to change the hotkey from P to Q because P is just too far to reach across the keyboard to make it useful
Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
whaTITdoz
Profile Joined April 2010
United States92 Posts
November 08 2010 23:15 GMT
#10
That is pretty cool. I will definitely have to give this a try in a real game. Probably will help even more to group the marines in different control groups and have them all patrolling a little differently.
Tyler918273
Profile Joined September 2010
115 Posts
November 08 2010 23:17 GMT
#11
I dont play terran but wonder if baneling peeling could work with marines like it does zerglings? I dont see why it wouldn't its just that you usually have this problem in zvt with bigger armies than in zvz. Peeling is a term I picked up from a caster, dont remember who, but is where you send 1 ling at a time to pick off a bane in case it was unclear.
vxl
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden64 Posts
November 08 2010 23:18 GMT
#12
On November 09 2010 08:05 Selkie wrote:
Secondly, the baneling speed thing- is it on?

Judging from the 4th screenshot, no.

This should also be tested with banespeed and shield+stim researched.
Coriolis
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1152 Posts
November 08 2010 23:20 GMT
#13
I've experimented with this in the past, its really hit or miss. Sometimes all your marines die, othertimes you come out nearly unscathed. I just prefer to stim, run, and then split.
Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
November 08 2010 23:20 GMT
#14
On November 09 2010 08:17 Tyler918273 wrote:
I dont play terran but wonder if baneling peeling could work with marines like it does zerglings? I dont see why it wouldn't its just that you usually have this problem in zvt with bigger armies than in zvz. Peeling is a term I picked up from a caster, dont remember who, but is where you send 1 ling at a time to pick off a bane in case it was unclear.

That won't work for the same reason it usually doesn't in ZvZ, no one is going to a-move banelings at you if they are paying attention.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Lucius2
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany548 Posts
November 08 2010 23:23 GMT
#15
already known and has seen 0 appearances so far
eXigent.
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada2419 Posts
November 08 2010 23:27 GMT
#16
Personally I dont think using commands like patrol are the most ideal when it comes to baneling dodging. I find that practicing doing it manually works out much better in the end. I like to hotkey mauraders and about 10 marines in control group 1, then the remainder of the marines in control group 2 and 3. This allows for both manually splitting marines, as well as quickly getting them back into a group when needed. You can simply attack move forward with the maurader group, while splitting groups 2 and 3 of marines, and then quickly taking 6-7 pockets of marines and sending them away. He is busy dealing with the mauraders/10marines getting free hits as his banelings hunt your bigger marine packs, which become super hard for him, as they quickly split into 10+ groups. Combine that with a few tanks in seige mode targetting his banelings, and it becomes alot more managable.



On November 09 2010 08:17 Tyler918273 wrote:
I dont play terran but wonder if baneling peeling could work with marines like it does zerglings? I dont see why it wouldn't its just that you usually have this problem in zvt with bigger armies than in zvz. Peeling is a term I picked up from a caster, dont remember who, but is where you send 1 ling at a time to pick off a bane in case it was unclear.


Yeah terran players already do this , usually with a maurader as it can take 5-6 baneling hits before dieing.
DarKFoRcE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1215 Posts
November 08 2010 23:30 GMT
#17
i wonder why you would want to use this inferior method instead of practising actually splitting them manually? i mean, sure, if youre micro is very bad, then this is better than a-moving, but if you dont practise splitting, you'll never get better at it..
Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/PinDarKFoRcE
zzaaxxsscd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States626 Posts
November 08 2010 23:52 GMT
#18
need stim and baneling speed, because players will (should) automatically get these upgrades if they see their opponents going heavy bane or marine
ganil
Profile Joined August 2009
253 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-09 00:19:27
November 08 2010 23:54 GMT
#19
I gave it a try.

30 baneling vs 40 marines.

With the patrol move you can make a "line" of marine and then split it manually.

Unuppgraded marines vs unuppgrades banelings : marines win most of the time (usually between 2-5 survivors).
When banelings win they're usually 3 left.
With a moved marines 8 blings left or sthg.

edit : with standard micro I managed to win with 40 marines vs 35 bling after a few try (a moving bling before selecting marines with stim.bling speed & shield)
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
November 09 2010 00:19 GMT
#20
are you trying to say this is how MVP/foxer did it? I figured they just had gosu mouse control and just split all the marines into groups of 2/3 so that way its cost effective. 2 banelings (100/50 resource) to kill 3 marines (150 minerals) is extremely cost effective.

If you use 25 banelings, in theory if you just drop off one at a time by shift clicking on the control bar and continually moving then it should tkae just 12 marines to suicide their way in.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
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