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So after searching I didn't see any posts on this yet.
If you weren't watching MLG this weekend you might have missed Liquid`Nazgul's vs EGIdra in the Winners Bracket Round 4.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nazgul managed to 2-1 Idra knocking Idra down to the losers bracket. He used a very unique 4 gate rush with blink stalkers, using very impressive micro to beat Idras Roach/Ling build.
Anyways, I wanted to use this build and transcribed it from game 1 on Metalopolis. Im posting this here for discussion regarding this build and possible improvements.
The Build:
9 Pylon
13 Gateway
15 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
19 Gas
19 Pylon
21 Chronoboosted Stalker
21 Warpgate
26 Chronoboosted Stalker
27 Gateway
Save chronoboost for blink
28 Gateway - Harass with first 2 stalkers
29 Pylon
30 Twilight Council - Cut Probes
30 Gateway
30 Blink
30 Pylon
It's a somewhat All-In build that is very effective vs roach openings and late pools, and weak vs mass zergling and fast hydra, from what I've found. What are your thoughts on it?
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It's a complete all-in as you fully block your ramp and cut probes, not allowing yourself to get an expansion up running unless you either win or inflict supermassive damage.
It's also countered easily by any sort of early Hydra play, so you have to aim for a timing just after the lair finishes. If you can hit it and micro correctly, it will work beautifully.
It should also be noted that both times he pulled it off successfully, it was at close positions. Kulas Ravine also has the honor of being an abusive map vs Zerg so there was that as well.
Honesly, I think Idra (and thus any zerg) could have held it if he hadn't split his army and been caught out of position with the stalkers coming in behind the expansion in game 3.
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Mass Zergling is not a counter (I've tried and failed!).
The best counter is fast infestor tech with zergling/spine crawler or mass hydra if the attack is later than normal.
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I'll have to watch the replay, but I came up against what I think was this build yesterday on the zerg side of it(at about ~1700 diamond level). From my scouting it looked like a typical 4 gate, one close positions on Delta Quad. But, the pressure didn't really seem to be there. I was definitly surprised to see blink when it first came, but it didn't greatly effect the outcome of the battle. Once I repelled the attack (with largely speedlings and a couple of roaches, I teched to hydras, expanded, and pushed with roach/hydra speedling. He had a couple immortals and blink stalkers, but with speedling support the blink stalkers were pretty inneffective.
Pure roach openings seem uncommon from my experience (although I don't use them and I play zerg, so I'm obviously not seeing it from toss' perspective) particularly since if you want to defend a fast expo you really need to either get roach speed or ling speed to deal with stalkers even if they don't have blink. Teching straight to t2 and getting roach speed once you scout a 4 gate is pretty risky, which lends itself to getting early ling speed even if you are building some roaches.
It seems like without extremely high micro skills you are hurting yourself quite a bit to get blink out. Once I saw how hard he was teching and an attempt at expanding I pumped lings off of my 3 bases to support roach/hydra and easily pushed for the win.
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First off, spoiler tags pls. I can expect spoilers in the general section, but I shouldn't see any in the strategy section.
I've tried quite a bit of blink stalker stuff vs Z, and from my experience it only works well if the zerg is trying to drone way too hard and doesn't have 50 lings and has more than 2 spine crawlers at the front. Stalkers just kill lings way too slowly and the blink cooldown is too long for you to micro effectively vs enough speedlings. It can work on maps with few open spaces, but on a map like xel naga caverns or metalopolis speedlings just wreck blink stalkers imo.
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i like FE into 6 wg blink stalkers a lot, that build is also a lot less all-innish, since you get really good eco so you can add tech later anyways. i only lost with this build to mass roach, muta/ling comes too late and isnt all that effective vs well microed mass stalkers
works best on jungle basin, you also wallin yourself completely, but thats not that big of a deal. i still wallin myself completely if i normal 4wg push and opponent has many lings to prevent counter, it doesnt hurt that much to kill one of your own pylons
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Its a nice variation of the uber-used 4gate, very usefull in many maps, autoloses aganist fast infestor (never seen though), fast hydra or bad micro. Can be extremelly usefull in some maps, or weaker in others.
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I think IdrA said it himself on his Lo3 interview afterward it was a bad idea. As I recall, he said he had to go roach because Kulas demanded it and blink stalkers counter roaches, so he lost. Had he gone a different route that game could've turned out quite differently.
But on the topic of the strategy, if you're convinced your opponent isn't rushing for hydras by all means go for it. Blink stalkers are abusive little buggers. Just remember it's quite all in so either do good damage or risk losing the game.
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Faced this on ladder today and lost (1800 Z here). It easily countered my roach/spling push (with proper blink micro). Just wanted to add this from the Zerg's perspective -- it was highly effective.
Edit: Map: Scrap Station
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large factor is the map.. Kulas favors this, so does desert oasis. Umm I've seen it done on scrap station before, delta quadrant, xc, yeah
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On November 09 2010 07:11 Geovu wrote:
First off, spoiler tags pls. I can expect spoilers in the general section, but I shouldn't see any in the strategy section.
I've tried quite a bit of blink stalker stuff vs Z, and from my experience it only works well if the zerg is trying to drone way too hard and doesn't have 50 lings and has more than 2 spine crawlers at the front. Stalkers just kill lings way too slowly and the blink cooldown is too long for you to micro effectively vs enough speedlings. It can work on maps with few open spaces, but on a map like xel naga caverns or metalopolis speedlings just wreck blink stalkers imo.
You're not using the low-ground on xel'naga properly then. You blink your stalkers down to the low ground as they get attacked and he can't run speedlings around to kill them off.
Same with meta, attack in a position that you can blink up to high-ground (have a spotter probe) and the battle rapidly becomes one-sided. Or, use one of the statues near their expansion as Nazgul did.
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Just to chime in that I've been doing a FE variant (8-gate) of this for quite awhile now and it is very effective if you the zerg tries to pressure you with roaches. There is a timing window here (if they go roaches) where you can push out before they can get any significant amount of mutas or hydras.
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another question about the idra vs nazgul series: how can nazgul blink up to the WT on high ground in game 3 on kulas ravine around 11 minute?
edit: apparently the other WT's vision covers a little bit of the high ground. nice, i didnt know this, i thumbed down kulas ravine :o
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Id say its only slightly more all in than a standard 4 gate and many times more effective. If you can manage to do good damage to him than your that much closer to storm, and blink makes you muta-proof.
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United States4126 Posts
On November 09 2010 07:52 dudeman001 wrote:
I think IdrA said it himself on his Lo3 interview afterward it was a bad idea. As I recall, he said he had to go roach because Kulas demanded it and blink stalkers counter roaches, so he lost. Had he gone a different route that game could've turned out quite differently.
But on the topic of the strategy, if you're convinced your opponent isn't rushing for hydras by all means go for it. Blink stalkers are abusive little buggers. Just remember it's quite all in so either do good damage or risk losing the game.
I also recall Idra saying that hydraling would completely counter the build.
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Yeah, fast hydras definitely counter this, but when most Zergs see a 4 gate (if they scout it) they get roach/ling for immediate defense. Teching to hydras takes time, and a lot of times a 4 gate pushes before the Zerg can get a good chunk of hydras out. Hydras basically demolish gateway units like MM because of their DPS in general.
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not really a nazgul build, i think he practice it as their is a few replays gone around over time of IDRA losing to it(with some of him being BM).
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I find a few issues with doing what Nazgul did in regular ladder matches. For one, Nazgul apparently knows IdrA well enough to bet everything on IdrA fast expanding every time. Against a random opponent I've never played before, I wouldn't want to take such chances neglecting an early zealot or a sentry in case of a roach rush or an early pool. Or if my zerg opponent is teching without expanding (less likely) a single infestor with fungal growth will ruin you.
Second, the micro has got to be incredibly precise. Stalkers don't do much damage compared to other tier 1 units, so you'll have to keep up the stalker treadmill for awhile in order to do the damage you need to.
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What does one transition to after opening with this and fighting back and forth for a long time? Obviously there is expanding and upgrading, but is there any tech that is reasonable to transition into?
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EPT
