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172 Posts
I watched this game live, and since I was in liquidnazgul's league at the time I went ahead and grabbed the basic build off his match history immediately. I'm 100% new to protoss (I've basically always played zerg, and a good chunk of terran) so it was a bit tough to make the transition and try this build. Thing is, I can handle the blink micro easy enough, but I can't seem to match nazgul's production. He's running 12 stalkers SO fast, I can't seem to get 8-10 out in the same timeframe.
Anyway, started getting it a bit closer and decided to try it on ladder. Probably not the smartest thing as my current MMR has me matched vs rank 1-8 1500-1900 diamonds. Round 1 was vs an 1840 diamond zerg. I managed to get the stalkers up in a relatively comparable timeframe to the nazgul's game vs idra, but in that time the zerg had done his FE and built a -billion- speedlings. My first attack was an absolute disaster (hard to blink micro vs a split massive speedling ball) and I then promptly got ran over by speedling/muta...
I tried to abuse the map a bit (it was on jungle basin) so I hopped into his expo and planned to hop back, but he simply split his zerglings and had a whole grip of them waiting on the other side of the chasm, not good.
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On November 09 2010 22:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 09:27 zor.au wrote:
not really a nazgul build, i think he practice it as their is a few replays gone around over time of IDRA losing to it(with some of him being BM).
It is definitely a Nazgul build -.- He killed Check and Gerrard with a variation of it during beta, and this was the only build he did PvZ when in Korea 2 months ago 
Yeah I always thought it was odd that people talked about it like a new build. I remember hearing about this is beta, as well as facing it on the ladder.
Impressed with the efficiency of Nazgul's control, but damn do I hate him! Now I have to face this on ladder and it's the type of build that's really hard to stop compared to the more flimsy robo focused crap Protoss' have been doing.
So what type of things have we come up with that works well vs it? mass lings or mass ling + upgrade seems to be alright, but is really flimsy vs other Protoss strategies and relies on being able to ambush the stalkers in an area where they can't abuse blink.
As for transitions out of this opening... can you just transition into fast upgrades? It's already hard for zerg to stop a strong gateway focused army, it seems like upgrades could really be a nail in the coffin, especially since it's going to be hard for zerg to match your upgrades if you deal any damage with your push or trade armies. +1/+2 armor vs a ling opening can really cut their DPS while +1/+2 attack vs roaches/hydras can really help your dps along with blink micro saving your wounded stalkers who get to keep dpsing from the back. You can also use the forge to get some cannons on a 3rd (eventually) to defend it from counter-attack while you keep up the aggression. From there maybe you can then get templars or DTs (DTs being more of a reactionary thing if they are stuck on hatchery tech to hold off your aggression).
@Ncinerate you're generally best off not blinking right into your opponent, at least from my experience. Blink will rarely be off cooldown by time he is on you and without blink micro your army is signficantly weaker. If you had just walked into his base you could have blinked down the main's cliff or back across the gap to save wounded stalkers and take out significantly more units.
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how would Roaches with Burrow do? Blink rushers aren't going to have observers, which means you could just burrow each Roach before the Stalkers could bring it down.
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Whats with the optimizing the workers in groups of 2 from the very start? And who came up with this brilliant idea? Brilliant i say, because with constant chronoboost after my first pylon i manage somehow to get a Gateway on 13 probes, w/o probe cut (this is usually possible on 14th probe w/o the optimizing). I think it affects the mid-game mineral mining as well.
Thanks for the build Nazgul, i am destroying Zergs all over the place with it. 
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On November 10 2010 00:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:
how would Roaches with Burrow do? Blink rushers aren't going to have observers, which means you could just burrow each Roach before the Stalkers could bring it down.
Would you be able to have burrow + enough roaches in time? Also would you be able to handle not having roach speed (if you can't get it + burrow + enough roaches), or would the stalkers just kite too well?
If you can defend with burrow it seems promising. On the offensive you can really punish the protoss with burrowed roaches if they have no detection. Defensively I'm not so sure.
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On November 09 2010 22:37 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 22:33 vohne wrote:On November 09 2010 22:29 Geo.Rion wrote:
very fast +1 attack speedlings can deal with it if you know it's coming and micro/macro properly. Missing larvae injects or supply blocking totally screws you Speedlings don't help dude, they really dont. Once the level of blink micro is good enough, you can only take off shields before they blink it back. You will lose too many speedlings while they reinforce their army with more stalkers. have you tried it or not? I did, +1 speedlings kill stalkers fairly quickly, and you have a lot as you dont need any gas past 200, sending a group of zerglins where he is escaping with the stalkers is not a problem on most of the maps. It takes about 3 +1 speedling to kill a stalker head on, you outnumber stalkers about 7-8 times with lings, micro makes stalkers effective, but if there's no super abusive terrain like Kulas stalkers will lose
I haven't faced +1, but I have faced some zerg's tryign to counter with speed/roach. maybe if they cut their roach out completely, I can see how ill have trouble. I don't know, I play at 1700-2000 zergs, its been quite successful as of late.
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On November 10 2010 01:12 vohne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 22:37 Geo.Rion wrote:On November 09 2010 22:33 vohne wrote:On November 09 2010 22:29 Geo.Rion wrote:
very fast +1 attack speedlings can deal with it if you know it's coming and micro/macro properly. Missing larvae injects or supply blocking totally screws you Speedlings don't help dude, they really dont. Once the level of blink micro is good enough, you can only take off shields before they blink it back. You will lose too many speedlings while they reinforce their army with more stalkers. have you tried it or not? I did, +1 speedlings kill stalkers fairly quickly, and you have a lot as you dont need any gas past 200, sending a group of zerglins where he is escaping with the stalkers is not a problem on most of the maps. It takes about 3 +1 speedling to kill a stalker head on, you outnumber stalkers about 7-8 times with lings, micro makes stalkers effective, but if there's no super abusive terrain like Kulas stalkers will lose I haven't faced +1, but I have faced some zerg's tryign to counter with speed/roach. maybe if they cut their roach out completely, I can see how ill have trouble. I don't know, I play at 1700-2000 zergs, its been quite successful as of late.
The problem with speedlings as a defense, and I'm not saying it won't work just that its the issue with it, is that it's a lot of larva off drones so your economy is likely equal to the Protoss' AND with any abusable terrain or cliffs the Protoss can still fair quite evenly vs the lings or just defensively retreat knowing that their ahead in tech and equal in economy.
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On November 10 2010 00:46 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 00:41 awesomoecalypse wrote:
how would Roaches with Burrow do? Blink rushers aren't going to have observers, which means you could just burrow each Roach before the Stalkers could bring it down. Would you be able to have burrow + enough roaches in time? Also would you be able to handle not having roach speed (if you can't get it + burrow + enough roaches), or would the stalkers just kite too well? If you can defend with burrow it seems promising. On the offensive you can really punish the protoss with burrowed roaches if they have no detection. Defensively I'm not so sure.
How would burrow help you? You can't have Tunneling Claws done by the time this attack hits so it will result in your roaches being burrowed doing nothing while his stalkers blink into your mineral line. Hydra is the only unit that has the range to deal with this effectively, speedlings are useful for stalling.
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I love this build! I've used it a lot during beta (ofcourse I stole it from nazgul after watching his games vs asians).
Only major thing I do differently is wallingof. I don't close my base completely but keep zealot instead.
it makes my force weaker but I often lose that proxy pylon and probe : P
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Personally i dont like this build all in style.
I usually do a 3 gate expand (blink if hes pressuring and cant expand) then 6 gate blink into DT/HT.
Just my personally preferrence, maybe less pressure but still forces a crap ton of units and can do quite a bit of dmg while allowing the expansion.
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On November 09 2010 18:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If done on the right maps (Lost Temple, XelNaga, Kulas Ravine, and Metalopolis) it works well against all styles as long as you use the terrain properly. Straight up hydras are not a hard counter to it, if only it was that simple. If the blink build is executed well outright hydras come too late in too few numbers. The reason why hydras beat it so easily in the game on Scrap Station has got nothing to do with hydras specifically but everything to do with the map and how much freedom to power and surround it gives Zerg against this build. Replay that exact same game on any map suited for Blink stalker and the hydras come too late with too few numbers. For this reason blink stalker is pretty terrible on Scrap Station and before the series I had no intention to play blink on Scrap against anyone. During the series however I changed my mind because I felt Idra was dealing with blink pretty badly, and added to that thought I felt it was useful to get some last minute blink practice in in order to win the deciding game on Kulas Ravine. All this "he should have gone hydras every game" talk is incredibly shortsighted.
Do you think its possible to abuse the scrap heap portion of scrap station by the north spawns natural? Ive done some good damage using blink stalkers vs. mass speedling on that part of that map, but it wasnt this build. There was no timing involved really just some fairly quick blink. I was able to keep his army moving and just abuse the high ground and the big scrap heap there to keep his dps away. I was able to circumvent spines in this way and kill some probes at the expansion while forcing him to keep pumping units. pretty easy to retreat from the position too, especially if the breakable rocks are still up.
I was just wondering because I noticed the fights you had on that map were not around this abusable area and perhaps its just easy for a pro zerg to keep you away from the scrap heap?
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I think the effectiveness of this build is being underplayed. If used by a high level player is quite effective.
First, we have to consider what it is to scout this build. It can be difficult to spot when the first unit coming out of the gateway is a stalker. That in itself can be a clue, however you can forget overlord scouting giving you any sort of certainty. If your looking for a more certain way to tell that they are going 4gate stalker, i certainly do not know of one.
Secondly, a good player will begin to harass with their first stalker, then their first 2 stalkers and so on. This forces the z to make lings and or go fast speed. This not only uses up larva, but it forces you to produce a units that is generally un-effective against Blink Stalkers. I dont mean to be critical, but players who feel blink stalkers have a difficult time against speedlings are not using their stalkers to potential.
Thirdly, and this i think is one of the more important discussion of this build, you cannot focus fire against this build. Players accustomed to using stalkers, players who are good with stalkers, can identify which stalker is the focus of fire before it goes down and blink it back. Unfortunately, your hydras do not auto-target off the stalker previously focused. They will chase back and hence walk forward into fire to continue targeting the stalker that blinked (blunk, lol?) away.
This is an extremely difficult build to spot and play against. Idra would have lost the 3rd game had he gone hydras unfortunately in my opinion. His victory on Scrap Station was a result of the longer rush distance and some painfully bad micro on Nazgul's part.
People need to take this build a little more seriously as rushing for hydras and or infestors is not the answer in itself because this build is designed to kill you before you reach that tech in the first place.
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i just gave this a try on jungle basin, cause i thought there is much space to abuse with blink. well he went pool first killed my scouting probe, cause i didnt pay attention and i thought later probes would be picked off, cause lings would camp the ramp.
as a result he was 1 basing with mass lings and speed roaches. i wouldnt say i got roflstomped, but he just had way too many units. no way i could have finished him with that build in this situation. i guess its impossible to beat a 1 basing zerg with that.
and another thing i noticed: i somewhat had so much gas at 1 point and i felt not enough minerals though i had 16 probes on mins. nazgul on the kulas ravine match though always had the "perfect" mineral/gas amount to continue spamming stalkers off 4 gates.
here is the replay,
any tips welcome
http://www.2shared.com/file/T_MfdiHa/blink_vs_1_base_zerg.html
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On November 10 2010 00:21 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2010 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I've done some practise against this, and i think that with roach/ling you can defend against it.
i really dislike going hydras as they are so slow and the stalkers will always get away easily and have an easy task sniping out hydras as they have such low hp.
Did you practice knowing that this build was coming? Because up to now I found that zergs produce WAY too few speedlings and drone up if they don't scout the TC, which is what kills them, because even a low-diamond like me can micro blink-stalkers vs roach...
Well i obviously knew that the build exists, but i didnt blindly play to counter only this one build (i teched to t2 and got a third queen for example to be save against voidrays/DTs aswell)
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On November 10 2010 08:44 Lucius2 wrote:i just gave this a try on jungle basin, cause i thought there is much space to abuse with blink. well he went pool first killed my scouting probe, cause i didnt pay attention and i thought later probes would be picked off, cause lings would camp the ramp. as a result he was 1 basing with mass lings and speed roaches. i wouldnt say i got roflstomped, but he just had way too many units. no way i could have finished him with that build in this situation. i guess its impossible to beat a 1 basing zerg with that. and another thing i noticed: i somewhat had so much gas at 1 point and i felt not enough minerals though i had 16 probes on mins. nazgul on the kulas ravine match though always had the "perfect" mineral/gas amount to continue spamming stalkers off 4 gates. here is the replay, any tips welcome http://www.2shared.com/file/T_MfdiHa/blink_vs_1_base_zerg.html
Assumption is the mother of all eff ups.
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Disclaimer: This is me just TheoryCrafting. I'll Test it out for timings.
Scenario:
Protoss: 1 gate Stargate->Phoenix
Terran: Fast Banshee with Cloak
Protoss scouts it and begins to harass. This forces turrets. Kills the Banshee before it get to your base. Thus Terran sees stargate and expands and makes marines. You expand with it and drop a robo plus 3 more gates. Terran will Transition into MMM or MMThor. You transition into Zealot Immortal phoenix(NOT MASS PHOENIX) and continue harrassment(If their too maruader heavy get voids). Drop a twilight and get charge.
OR
Protoss: 1 gate Stargate
Terran: 3 rax
Protoss scouts this and begins to harass. Drop a twilight get charge and drop 2 to 3 more gates. mass Zealots. Flank Terran(This prevents kiting). You are at the advantage because the phoenix can be used to scout and get a more favorable position.
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Sounds interesting on paper. Worth a try i say.
Has anyone tried flanking with chargelots to prevent kiting?+ Show Spoiler +I miss my speedlots 
User was warned for this post
EDIT: Wow I failed,posted in the wrong place. Hate when that happens
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From a low lvl Z-perspective (Platinum, at around 105-115 APM, only ~120 1on1 games):
This build is (again) very popular right now since MLG Dallas (at least in european high platinum and low diamond ZvP as far as I could experience it). It seems that most Z's are having a hard time fending off the blink stalker blows (P's report high success in game chats after the matches). Even on lower lvls the effectiveness of this build stays constant because of Z's failures while having to multitask micro+marco at the same time, while P's macro's done by the time, the first 11-12 Stalkers as a "ball" are ready to advance towards the Z's base (Nazgul: ~7:32 min 25-26 probes; typical Platinum ladder game at around 8:xx+ min, 25 probes).
Has anybody figuered out a way to fight this build properly even on lower lvls?
- First gas seems to drop on 2:0x min followed by the second gas almost exactly one minute later at ~ 3:0x min.
- Twilight Council dropped (Nazgul ~ 5:09 min, typical Platinum Player ~ 5:5x min)
- Scouting denied by Stalkers, even if you sac an Overlord, chances are high that you won't see the tech.
So what are the best chances to identify this build (without actually getting sight on the TC)?
Early gas timings that are indeed suspicious and suggest an exactly timed scouting to search for the TC?
Are early 1-2 Stalkers as vanguard for pressure an indicator?
-> Autolose if your opponent uses first few stalkers to feint nazguls Blink Stalker build and therefore screws with your mind and your own build?
What are your experiences with 1base/2base/Lings/Spines/+1/Hydra tech ?
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I completely destroyed a mid diamond player doing this build last night with mass +1 speed lings. After decimating his intial attack, I attacked with lings when +2 finished and killed him. You just need to cut drones around 26-28, and keep your speedlings HIDDEN in two groups until he commits to attack your nat. Attack from behind with the larger half, so that when he retreat blinks, he is easily surrounded again, or he blinks toward your nat, which will assure their destruction. I was lucky enough to scout the council with a suicide ovie however, so I saw it coming in time to prepare for it. If you don't see it coming, I think mass spines at the nat with some roaches should fend it off.
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On November 10 2010 09:25 Raiden X wrote:Disclaimer: This is me just TheoryCrafting. I'll Test it out for timings. Scenario: Protoss: 1 gate Stargate->Phoenix Terran: Fast Banshee with Cloak Protoss scouts it and begins to harass. This forces turrets. Kills the Banshee before it get to your base. Thus Terran sees stargate and expands and makes marines. You expand with it and drop a robo plus 3 more gates. Terran will Transition into MMM or MMThor. You transition into Zealot Immortal phoenix(NOT MASS PHOENIX) and continue harrassment(If their too maruader heavy get voids). Drop a twilight and get charge. OR Protoss: 1 gate Stargate Terran: 3 rax Protoss scouts this and begins to harass. Drop a twilight get charge and drop 2 to 3 more gates. mass Zealots. Flank Terran(This prevents kiting). You are at the advantage because the phoenix can be used to scout and get a more favorable position. ----------------------------------- Sounds interesting on paper. Worth a try i say. Has anyone tried flanking with chargelots to prevent kiting? + Show Spoiler +I miss my speedlots
???
How does this have anything to do with the strategy being talked about in this thread? Not to mention that theorycrafting in general is worthless in Starcraft unless you have a replay to back up exactly what you're theorizing about.
On November 09 2010 23:42 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I've done some practise against this, and i think that with roach/ling you can defend against it.
i really dislike going hydras as they are so slow and the stalkers will always get away easily and have an easy task sniping out hydras as they have such low hp.
I think this is definitely pretty accurate, especially when you consider that a good protoss player will hit you before you have an adequate number of hydras, leaving you in worse shape than if you just stuck with roach/ling. I think the main problem is that Zerg players drone to hard when seeing a 4-warpgate build, and I think the only way currently to stop this is to assume that it's coming if you don't encounter the normal 4-gate timing, since this build is slower than a normal 4-warpgate, and continue making units.
If Protoss juked you and tried to expand, then zerg should have enough units to punish protoss, although I'm not sure as I haven't tested out this piece of the puzzle, yet I would imagine that any smart player would try something like this if zerg over prepares.
Clearly, this is a very strong build in PvZ, as would be expected from Nazgul.
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EPT
