EPTMaybe as a standard 4 gate defense I just have to start investing in speedlings every time now .. which really blows as that slows down my lair tech a good bit and in the later game speedlings aren't so great against collosi.
[D] PvZ Liquid`Nazgul's 4 Gate Blink Stalker - Page 6
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Synk
United States297 Posts
Maybe as a standard 4 gate defense I just have to start investing in speedlings every time now .. which really blows as that slows down my lair tech a good bit and in the later game speedlings aren't so great against collosi. | ||
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dekwaz
Thailand61 Posts
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Dagon
Romania264 Posts
On November 09 2010 10:13 Hurkyl wrote: What does one transition to after opening with this and fighting back and forth for a long time? Obviously there is expanding and upgrading, but is there any tech that is reasonable to transition into? I would guess you could go for templars with storm and chargelots cause you allready have council.. Robo dosen't seem to inspired.. Maybe even going to DTs for some harras, as stalkers don't cost that much gas.. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
I really don't like this build. I tried it and my opponent already had 4 spines up (at that point IdrA had 1). The point is, not everyone's IdrA.. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On November 09 2010 07:11 Geovu wrote: First off, spoiler tags pls. I can expect spoilers in the general section, but I shouldn't see any in the strategy section. I'm so tired of this. The tournament is over. If you don't want to know who wins, don't browse the forums. Spoilers are important for things like stories, but when it come's to events once it's over it whould be out in the public. You don't see on the news before they get into the sports section "SPOILER ALERT" when they talk about the games that happened earlier that day. Sorry just had to make this point. On topic: Hydras are the best answer. And I think there's a misconception that this strat is nearly unbeatable if you don't quick tech to hydras. Idra made some blunders in both the first and third games(attacked Nazgul in bad positions and attacked Nazguls base when he didn't need to). | ||
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Zibitee
United States39 Posts
On November 12 2010 01:50 happyness wrote: I'm so tired of this. The tournament is over. If you don't want to know who wins, don't browse the forums. Spoilers are important for things like stories, but when it come's to events once it's over it whould be out in the public. You don't see on the news before they get into the sports section "SPOILER ALERT" when they talk about the games that happened earlier that day. Sorry just had to make this point. On topic: Hydras are the best answer. And I think there's a misconception that this strat is nearly unbeatable if you don't quick tech to hydras. Idra made some blunders in both the first and third games(attacked Nazgul in bad positions and attacked Nazguls base when he didn't need to). I'm pretty certain I won't be able to get enough hydras out in time unless I 1-base or rush for hydras....both of which will hurt the zerg player economically. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On November 11 2010 21:07 Plexa wrote: No it makes sense because Zerg can defend with speedling, but can't keep up with relentless pressure if executed right. That's where getting infestors comes in since they outright shutdown blink play. The fungal buff vs blink might as well have come because blink stalkers were owning Ultralisks very hard. Mind you it came right when the ultra hp buff came, somewhat after the previous ultra splash nerf. Because without this a late game mass blink army might be very hard to stop. | ||
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Lush
United States657 Posts
If I lose to zerg as protoss, it's usually in the first few minutes due to lings in my base due to me teching to quickly or doing something stupid. will lings have a timing window you run in before stalker can block? | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
I mean, 15 ultralisks and 5 infestors would smack those stalkers without a doubt but you wont get them in time. The reason pro's win tournaments is because they figure out build methodically. You cannot judge about a build until it's execution is absolutely flawless. | ||
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Pitsot
Russian Federation20 Posts
Thanks a lot! | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
The whole reason blink stalkers are effective is because of their mobility. You need fungal growth to pin them down and the rest of your units to destroy them before they can blink away. With the cost of the TC and Blink research, the blink stalker player will have fewer units than a typical straight up gateway push. Use that extra cushion to add 1-2 infestors to your forces. Burrow enables the zerg player to effectively use the same tactic back on the protoss player. Just burrow units that are damaged. The protoss player will not have any detection, so you can burrow to your heart's content. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
Gate and fast Blink research in his showmatch vs Idra. He definitely had Blink earlier than Naz though, and attacked with about 6 Stalkers initially. I liked that build more and tried it out a bit, and it also allows some nifty transitions into quick DT (you tend to have just about the right amount of gas). The other trick I pulled with extra gas was Sentry with hallucinated Zealots. Quite gimmicky, but very fun on ladder. =P | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I understand there is a slight difference as there is a need to wall-off against zerg and perhaps you need a zealot but often scouting will tell this is not needed and you can just use the 3 gate build? 4 gate on one base is just overkill imo, it's a fair bit of overproduction and 3 gates is exactly enough imo. It might lead to a very small mineral build up but that can be used to expand, whereas with 4 gates you will just have to cut units to expand which seems counterproductive. That said I think this build is fantastic for Deltra quadrant and to a lesser extent xel naga. On the other maps I prefer a variation of a forge FE but on the more open maps with good cliffs to abuse this is definately a great opener. Especially on delta it's nice as you can use your first stalkers to clear the rocks, then attack with 7 stalkers and expand + constant pressure from 3 gates in the meantime. | ||
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g50000
24 Posts
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
On November 12 2010 01:39 sjschmidt93 wrote: Seems like mass ling wouldn't work. Just blink yourself into a corner and the lings aren't going to do anything. I really don't like this build. I tried it and my opponent already had 4 spines up (at that point IdrA had 1). The point is, not everyone's IdrA.. Blink past the spines and kill all their drones because they spent so much on "static" defense that they have little units? It's just really not standard for a Zerg to have 4 random spines up at all times just in case a protoss wants to blink rush.. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On November 13 2010 02:15 Markwerf wrote: How this build build differ from 3 gate blink stalker in PvP? I understand there is a slight difference as there is a need to wall-off against zerg and perhaps you need a zealot but often scouting will tell this is not needed and you can just use the 3 gate build? 4 gate on one base is just overkill imo, it's a fair bit of overproduction and 3 gates is exactly enough imo. It might lead to a very small mineral build up but that can be used to expand, whereas with 4 gates you will just have to cut units to expand which seems counterproductive. That said I think this build is fantastic for Deltra quadrant and to a lesser extent xel naga. On the other maps I prefer a variation of a forge FE but on the more open maps with good cliffs to abuse this is definately a great opener. Especially on delta it's nice as you can use your first stalkers to clear the rocks, then attack with 7 stalkers and expand + constant pressure from 3 gates in the meantime. Cut units to expand at your own risk. Its much better to cut probes when expanding as protoss than to cut units IMO. In the PvP MU you cant control their economy with pressure and they are building units the same time as you. In PvZ you're slowing their economy down. The 4 gate version is much much safer and much more deadly because the timings in PvZ are much more specific. Nazgul has probably worked on every variation and went with what will work. Playing vs players with great control all the time makes your 3 gate army feel substantially weaker than a 4 gate army. He cuts probes fairly early on as well so even needing the expansion means you're fighting uphill. | ||
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
How are people dealing specifically with this type of early aggression? | ||
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Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
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Hakker
United States1360 Posts
On November 17 2010 08:01 Retgery wrote: i f you change it to a "3-gate Blink stalker" and swapout the 4th gate for a forge. Will this become less of an all-in and more aggresive standard play? I've been experimenting with 3gate into blink into expand, it works pretty well but you need to make sure you're appoenent doesn't get agressive with lings. | ||
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iLLmatiic
64 Posts
I've read through this whole thread and there was really no one who had a valid way to counter this build even when you see it coming! That's pretty sick... I need to find someone to go this build vs me over and over so I can test things out because I get owned so hard by it as long as the player is compitent. There has to be some sort of counter type build to it... Well the TC usually starts about 5:00 and the rush starts at 8:00. That's definitely not enough time to get a good amount of hydra if you fast tech to them and no way in hell are you gonna get any infestors with a decent enough army to handle the stalkers... The easiest way to know they are going this build is obviously the super fast second gas. That will really mean either blink stalker rush or fast voidrays. Then suicide an overlord in around 5-6 min mark and see if u can spot the TL or 3-4 gates to know if hes going the blink stalkers or air. The best counter I would think (though I haven't been able to pull this off well in any of the games i've played because I usually wouldn't know the blink rush was coming until it was too late, though after reading this thread and watching some of my replays I have more of an idea of what to look for) is getting minimal zerglings to defend initial stalker pushes as they come while droning to around 35 and teching. From there get mass ling to stall long enough while getting up a hydra den and getting out a good amount of hydra. The key I think is stalling well with the lings which again will come down to positioning and micro. This can be a real bitch on maps like xelnaga where they can just blink down the ledge all day and lose next to nothing while clearing out so many lings. Another key is to have constant spotter lings running around looking for proxy pylons. Obviously a few spines at the natural is good on maps with small chokes. I'd like to hear more peoples possible solutions to this build because it is really causing me alot of headaches. | ||
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