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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/oDbfX.png) Perdition Images: Overview: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/N5P5W.jpg) Angled View: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5TEWD.jpg) Analyzer Image: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/41iA8.jpg) Old Images: + Show Spoiler + Notes: This is my first reflection symmetric map. It's on the Char tile set. Char is full of rocks, pulsating gooey things and guts apparently. Welcome to Perdition. I hate it. I hope you do too. P.S. Droopy. My Map Thread | ||
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
On November 08 2010 15:34 EatThePath wrote: Let's talk through this. Can you expand on your negative feelings? How do you feel when you look at your map? I figured no one actually read that. Nice to know some people do. I don't actually hate it, but I do much prefer rotationally symmetric maps when it comes to two players. | ||
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Amadi
Finland139 Posts
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
On November 08 2010 16:18 Amadi wrote: I don't really hate this, but I can't say I'd love this, either. I don't like the air distance, to begin with, and the mains are boring. The gold in middle is way too risky to be taken under almost any circumstances, and the way expansions are set up is a bit boring. It's not bad in any way, it's just very standard, basic, simple, and forgettable. I can't disagree with you. But, I will say that the air distances are comparable to close air on Metalopolis. And I'm not really sure what an exciting main would look like. You'll have to explain that to me. Also, Any expansion anywhere close to the middle of the map will be difficult to take. Do you think it would make the map better if I removed the gold in the middle? I don't think it would change much, so why not leave it in and make it a slap in the face to your opponent when you're winning and you do take it. I think the expansion pattern on this style of map has a fine line between safe and impossible. I leaned toward safe. But if a game progresses as far as taking a 4th expansion, there will be definite conflict. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
On November 08 2010 18:06 dezi wrote: 1 questions, did you turn around the whole map? I thought during your first version of this the bases were at 9 and 12 instead of 3 and 6? ^^ Anyway it still looks somewhat like a BETTER remake of scrap station. What's the rush distance? Yes, I did flip it around. I also changed the far away gold... It's probably not the best WIP I had in my thread, but I have trouble doing finishing work on a map unless I have a clear vision of what I want the map to look like. I found the Char tile set easy to work with so I decided to finish it despite its not-so-greatness. Ground rush distances according to the map analyzer are 167.2 main-to-main, and 149.8 nat-to-nat. | ||
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Perdition
American Samoa77 Posts
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
I am interested to know how the rampy "inner circle" plays out considering it being highgroud to control outer circle. on the symmetrical 1on1 map problem: when you feel bad about the close distance of bases in 2player symmetrical maps, why did you not switch main and third? then the air close distance issue is kind of solved. another possibility is to fit another expansion between the two that is long distance or hard to controll unless you have air advantage allow me to shamlessly link to my last map I think a bigger problem (in 2player symmetrical maps) is to design a centre. it must provide enough space, you need to have access from everywhere, but it has to be controllable at the same time. therefore I'd love to play on your map and see how the centre(circle thing) with ramps plays! great stuff for an interesting discussion, guys! | ||
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
For example, take your suggestion to switch the main and third. This could work, but the changes would be pretty drastic. I would have to remove the high ground ramp path because it would be too close to the main. I would then make it so the two (old) mains connected in order to make the thirds attackable without having to travel through the natural. This would create conflict around the thirds but destroy any idea of an interesting center by splitting the attack paths. I've come to believe that the center space is what makes a map interesting. That space and how it is controlled is key. Though, my biggest problem with reflection symmetry is that the closer an expansion gets the line of symmetry, the more difficult it becomes to take. Look at Scrap Station and it's thirds. The thirds are too close making them quite difficult to take and because of this, I rarely see plays on the map above two bases. Look at Tendency (Samro's map linked in his post), the fourths are close and if you read the thread many are concerned that a single player might take both of them. It's difficult creating a viable and interesting expansion pattern when you have to so closely and carefully avoid the center without making the map too huge. | ||
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G_Wen
Canada525 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
The discussion has gone over everything I saw in this map. Yeah, it's more "reasonable" than Scrap Station, but it comes off so bland and vaguely problematic. I really agree with you that a main tenet of good mapmaking is having a good center, and that this is harder on a mirrored 2 player. You achieved good results here. It really helps to have a theme in mind to play up in your layout, otherwise everything turns out ho-hum unless you get lucky. "What is the purpose of making this map that other maps have not yet achieved?" In this case, the map is so plain at first glance, but your careful design considerations bear out some interesting mid/late-game possibilities. In fact I think the cosmetics could be leveraged to make things "pop" more, helping to define spaces, which gives the player direction in how to use the map advantageously. This is why char can't have nice things. I know you've seen it before because you posted in the thread, but I think this map is a great example of the possibilities of mirror 2 player that are still available to experiment with: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150414 | ||
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
I see 5-6 general areas of conflict throughout play: The 2 areas outside of the naturals in the early game and once the rocks have been broken down between the bases, the 2 high ground ramp areas on the central attack path in the mid game, and the area between the fourths in the late game. Am I wrong about these areas? Should these areas be more clearly defined? Highest Authority does provide one way to assuage the difficulties. Namely, it is much, much larger than Perdition. Highest Authority has a playable area of 168x158 whereas Perdition is 132x132. If I do make another reflection symmetric map I will probably make it slightly bigger, but probably not as big as Highest Authority. Though you will notice that most of the bases are far from the line of symmetry and this does create some very long attack distances. Think about attacking the thirds; they are so far away. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
Working on Char I would probably turn to doodads to fill it out in the style I describe. Just making it up: the thirds would be boneyards with carcasses strewn about. The high ground pods would be rocky pinnacles with spires around the edge. The avenue between fourths would have active lava bubble pits, or some kind of alien lava foliage. This might be a personal preference thing, or does it seem valid? Edit: As an addendum, I think you could have a less distinctive map appearance as well, but I find this suits an intentional "dreary wasteland" aesthetic. The layout here is much more "active" though. A wind-blown desert with spaces defined by rock walls can be monotone. There are a lot of curves and ups and downs here that, to me, want to be their own little places. | ||
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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BoomStevo
United States332 Posts
Changes: - Moved the ramp to the third. - Increased the size of the natural choke. - Decreased the size of the ramps to the center gold. - Added a third gas to the center gold base. | ||
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
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