[M] (4) Axis of Industry

On September 18 2010 03:59 Antares777 wrote:
Q: Is it better to have a natural choke 12 squares wide? I always made my maps with nat chokes 8 squares wide. Is that too small in your opinion?

On September 18 2010 04:07 dimfish wrote:


Let's assume that everything from 8-square nat chokes all the way up to Metalopolis 359-degrees open naturals are balanced in all match ups. Probably the best thing mappers can do is try to use all sorts of chokes so the community has the biggest variety to test on, and over time we'll find out that, say, the Metalopolis nat is ridiculous or 8-squares is too easy for to Terran to go 14 CC 14 Barracks nat-wall in, which is probably what Flash will do with an 8-square nat when he switches over.

On September 18 2010 05:05 Amadi wrote:
This looks really good from aesthetics-point-of-view. The theme with the mid is interesting, too, and seems fairly balanced.

Some other parts bug me, though. First of all, the High-Yield seems a fair bit too easy to protect. Even if players spawn in close ground positions, it is much safer third than any other expansion on the map, and don't let me get started about how safe it is if you are in cross or close air positions.

Another issue is that when people spawn cross positions, your whole side is safe behind one choke. There are absolutely zero flanking options for Zerg, and Five bases are going to be all Terran will ever need.

These two facts do not encourage only fast expanding. They also encourage turtling. If you can turtle at 5 bases with fairly high safety, you can bet your asses off that every Terran will be doing it. This really capitalizes on effectiveness of dropships and air harassment, since no one in their right of mind attacks a well-defended choke.

Basically, this is a map where spawning cross-positions is potentially harmful for the zerg player. They do not benefit from defending a choke like the other two races do, due to their mass not fitting there. Therefore Zergs will prefer to be ready to defend/flank in the open mid, whereas Terran players will be defending the choke and keeping their side's 3-gas expansions closed with tanks. I doubt Zergs can really break that defense lategame.

While I like people expanding like crazy just as much as you do, making closed maps that encourage turtling is not the way to go.

On September 18 2010 06:00 dimfish wrote:


My thoughts on gold expos are enough to start a whole new thread, but here's a summary: high-yield expansions are not the end-all, be-all! There has been a lot of discussion on TL about the exact effectiveness of high-yield, especially with regard to MULEs, but I think we can all agree on the obvious stuff:

1. You gather minerals at a higher rate, but the current standard is six patches. This means your actual rate of mining isn't 1.4x normal, because there are less patches to mine from, and high-yield patches have the same 1500 minerals as a normal patch, so a gold expo is in long run less rich. Essentially, you can saturate mineral mining with less workers, which is good but not game-breaking.

2. You cannot mine gas any faster from a HY expo, so let's simplify a bit to say HY doesn't push you into high-tech any faster.

3. I purposefully gave it a wide ramp and lots of space around the outside for air-born harass.

I honestly don't think the HY expos are out of control on this map.

On September 18 2010 06:00 dimfish wrote:

I'd argue that this is a monster choke. If you look at the openness in the map analyzer image you'll see that it is as wide as any open space on Lost Temple. Additionally, the sides of the choke are unpathable cliffs--meaning a ground-based army committed to plugging the gap needs something to protect against mutas or void rays or drops.

But I understand your concern, I could take a little off of the unpathable cliffs to make the choke to the center even wider.

On September 18 2010 06:00 dimfish wrote:

If a Terran player bottled himself up behind the center choke then he is ceding two of the 3-gas expos to the other player, and yes he could use tanks to neutralize the 3-gas on his side. That's just it, though, two 3-gas bases is like three 2-gas bases; Zerg has a lot of nasty options with that much gas! Bro lords would be my personal choice. And even if a Terran holds the large choke and defends his main, it is a tall order to turtle all the way across the diagonal of this 140x140 playable map.

I am not convinced one way or the other, but I do think it is non-trivial to try and play a map-cut turtle strategy here.

On September 18 2010 06:14 dezi wrote:
I used all my paint skills to paint this awesome image how i would change the map.

red lines = new path (could be initially blocked if needed)
red semi circle = new elevated area (if needed walk/dropable)

The other lines should be clear ^^
Also i would turn gold into blue (or scrap it) and turn the 3 gas blue into 3 gas + gold < high rish but high reward there.

On September 18 2010 06:18 BoomStevo wrote:
Just noticed, no watch towers. On purpose?

On September 18 2010 06:49 Amadi wrote:
One thing I got wrong on my first look is that I thought dark semi-circles near unpathable cliffs were made out of sight blockers. Apparently they are not, but it'd be food for thought. They would be fairly interesting if they were. Good spot to wait for an ambush or to launch a counterattack to enemy base once he runs past you. At least something I'd think about.

The ramp still makes it easier to defend than your natural. Only thing going for your natural over it is proximity to your mainbase allowing for faster reinforcements.

It might not be out-of-control, but comparing to blizzard maps, it is very risk-safe. I kind of like how it creates a race for control if the players spawn in close positions, though.

You still might want to look at the mineral amounts in each gold patch there, though, or something.

Another interesting fact is how decreasing the size of the hole next to the HY actually makes the high yield harder to hold, since the aggressor can more easily threaten both natural and the high yield.

The main issue here is that once terran has 3 bases, it is not very expensive for them to throw down one or two Planetary Fortresses in that choke. Suddenly, it turns into a very tight defense position that is really hard if not impossible to break through. On most maps this is not really an option due to the cost of the fortresses compared to the area they are holding, but on this map I can see it being a legitimate strategy. Defending five bases with those two buildings suddenly makes them very cost efficient.

I don't want to jump the gun here, cause it might just be my bad experiences attacking chokes speaking, but I think it could be a bit wider considering its' importance.

The issue with zerg is that while they are supposed to reinforce faster, and therefore throwing units at a wall and reinforcing seems legit, it really isn't since the defender doesn't have to reinforce as much. They are not losing as many troops.

Adding more secluded locations for Nydus entrances might help, too.

It might be fine, though. Turtling terrans already cause problems to zerg in any maps where they can secure multiple bases and still turtle up until their army is ready to steamroll, so this is nothing special. It might just be a logical outcome of the current balance. It might be interesting to see how thigns change with the patch, especially if the "leaked" notes are true, as that would increase efficiency of both Nydus play (allowing cancels) and Overlord Drops (speed upgrade.).

You are probably right that it is fine now. It can't be worse than Kulas Ravine, and that is on the current rotation. I do love that map but Zerg is at a severe disadvantage.

Perhaps the issue isn't with the maps, but with zerg's inability to adapt.

On September 22 2010 02:21 Whiplash wrote:
I love it, the only issue I see is that in 1v1 the close starting locations on same sides would be REALLY close. Is there a way you could always get long starting locations in 1v1?

On September 22 2010 03:58 dimfish wrote:


This map is 140x140 playable area, so the close spawns are not as close as they appear to be if you are used to looking at Blizzard maps, almost all of which are 128x128, and even smaller playable.

The close spawns on Axis of Industry are about 120 units, which is the same as Delta Quadrant or Lost Temple close spawns. If you can handle it there, you can handle it here!