EPTOn October 26 2010 04:11 dimfish wrote:
I think this map has rush potential because, even though the rush distance is somewhat far, if you get to the space in between the teammate bases its easy to keep them cut apart. Other 2's maps generally have the team ramps very close together. Do you think this is true?
I think this map has rush potential because, even though the rush distance is somewhat far, if you get to the space in between the teammate bases its easy to keep them cut apart. Other 2's maps generally have the team ramps very close together. Do you think this is true?
Nope, the two's maps you speak of (those that share a base) I have thumbed down for a reason. They are terrible maps and if you look at the majority of teams, its pretty clear that they have those maps thumbs down too.
The worst 2s maps in the blizzard pool.
Discord IV
Twilight Fort
War Zone
The Exception to this for me is High Orbit, because of all the entrances into the base... this prevents 100% guaranteed macro-fest game.
I hope that your map will be enjoyable, I have yet to be able to find a competitive team to play on it. At the moment I am just theory-crafting which is no means as good as testing it out.
On October 26 2010 04:11 dimfish wrote:
I think you agree with me that this map has macro potential, and from your comments you think that it is too easy macro hard, because of the gold base. I'll come back to that point in just a second.
Also, I VERY VERY MUCH agree that map control should give you a big advantage! Every map I make has this in mind. On Axis of Industry I put the signature 3-gas expansions in the middle because I think if you get map control you should take the 3-gas base next to your main. With 3-gas you can upgrade a lot or get higher tech faster than with a normal expo.
So what do you do against a team that tries to turtle up with their mains, nats and the gold? I think drop play is really strong on this map, but I haven't gotten a replay or VOD of high level players trying it yet. I meant for the edge of the main to be attackable from the low ground (but obviously not the main building!) so a turtle has to have defenses at the really big choke AND in their main, where on Lost Temple ground armies cannot attack nearly as much of the main from the low ground. Also, if you notice there is a bunch of unpathable high ground all around the natural and the gold base--drops can fly in right over these bases and attack! If you deny the turtle air sight then you can literally fly up really close before they can spot it.
I think players trying to turtle up can be punished with probing attacks at the main choke, attacks on the main from low ground and drops coming at the back bases--if they have enough stuff to defend everywhere then theyre not really macroing up. The perimeter is really long, so find a hole and punish.
Do you agree? If not, drop some knowledge on me!
I think you agree with me that this map has macro potential, and from your comments you think that it is too easy macro hard, because of the gold base. I'll come back to that point in just a second.
Also, I VERY VERY MUCH agree that map control should give you a big advantage! Every map I make has this in mind. On Axis of Industry I put the signature 3-gas expansions in the middle because I think if you get map control you should take the 3-gas base next to your main. With 3-gas you can upgrade a lot or get higher tech faster than with a normal expo.
So what do you do against a team that tries to turtle up with their mains, nats and the gold? I think drop play is really strong on this map, but I haven't gotten a replay or VOD of high level players trying it yet. I meant for the edge of the main to be attackable from the low ground (but obviously not the main building!) so a turtle has to have defenses at the really big choke AND in their main, where on Lost Temple ground armies cannot attack nearly as much of the main from the low ground. Also, if you notice there is a bunch of unpathable high ground all around the natural and the gold base--drops can fly in right over these bases and attack! If you deny the turtle air sight then you can literally fly up really close before they can spot it.
I think players trying to turtle up can be punished with probing attacks at the main choke, attacks on the main from low ground and drops coming at the back bases--if they have enough stuff to defend everywhere then theyre not really macroing up. The perimeter is really long, so find a hole and punish.
Do you agree? If not, drop some knowledge on me!
2s Drop play is rarely seen, in my last 100 games I don't think I've seen a heavy drop game more then once or twice. Its just not as effective in 2s. To much tech to do early, you would leave yourself open once again to a timing push and gg... you just lost with a cool medivac to fly you around in!
Your comparison to temple is flawed. Each player is responsible for defending a choke. Common chokes is where the problem is.
On temple if you turtle... We get map control, we deny expansions by using cliffs etc. Moving both our armies as one... we expand, we get more resources/units and we win. Your armies are split and you pay a huge price for turtling.
On a map like this.
Player 1 makes cannons
Player 2 makes a few zlings and powers 3 hatch.
If you can't crack it... GG, Protoss then techs and zerg is just to big by the time you can land drops etc...
Just not my cup of tea~ I had a counter to this.
Build a barracks on 9
Build a 2nd Barracks on 11
At the same time drop a Depo
Get an Orbital CC
Then pump marines and hit w/ early banelings.
GG people who attempt to turtle.
Blizzard took this option away from me.
On October 26 2010 04:11 dimfish wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm not going to make these changes. For sure I won't make it any bigger or flip the ramps because it will become almost a different map at that point. I think I see what you're going for by switching the center expos to gold, but I hesitate on this one too. To do this I think the current gold should become blue and no rocks and the center expos become gold. It's a possibility, but I think the expos are good as is, because the rocks take time to destroy so that's one more incentive to get in the center earlier.
I'll be honest, I'm not going to make these changes. For sure I won't make it any bigger or flip the ramps because it will become almost a different map at that point. I think I see what you're going for by switching the center expos to gold, but I hesitate on this one too. To do this I think the current gold should become blue and no rocks and the center expos become gold. It's a possibility, but I think the expos are good as is, because the rocks take time to destroy so that's one more incentive to get in the center earlier.
Thank you for the honesty maybe you can make a different map to incorporate these ideas! =P
On October 26 2010 04:11 dimfish wrote:
Do you agree that the valuable expansions are enough of an advantage for gaining map control, and that this map rewards good players by not having watch towers that make it a no-brainer where to concentrate your army? If not, I'd really like to hear your thoughts!
Do you agree that the valuable expansions are enough of an advantage for gaining map control, and that this map rewards good players by not having watch towers that make it a no-brainer where to concentrate your army? If not, I'd really like to hear your thoughts!
Your logic is that gas is important? You are right it is important, however in 2s its a non factor. If I really need more gas I would drop another expand and just use it for more gas. If I control middle I can do this already. The Bonus of a 3rd gas is so painful I'm really at a loss for words on this one.
Reason this is true for competitive 2s not 1s is that the majority of your army is going be tier 1 and tier 1 doesn't require gas or minimal gas.
If you watch most high level 2s games, people don't even take both gas early. If they do, they will surely leave them self wide open to a double timing push. Since you can scout and see double gas, you know something is up.
Your map give no reason to control anything other then your common choke outside your base.
Just wait until you want to push and push.
That is my problem with it.
Your map needs to be like an Oreo cookie... good filling in the middle!!
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