iCCup Pro Map Balance Thread

Channel56k

United States413 Posts

August 14 2010 15:44 GMT

Welcome the the iCCup Pro Map-Balance Thread

Here, top level players give their opinions on iCCup Custom Maps featured in the iCCup Map Series (IMS). We are thrilled that the maps are being played and that great matches are being cast every week, but the idea is that these players help the maps evolve; and they are helping.

Below, top players are quoted and before and after images of the maps are posted to let you see how the iCCup map makers interpreted the opinion through the map editor.

Not all opinions are balance related and not all opinions lead to direct and significant change. Like all good maps, the iCCup maps must evolve and we need to continuously come back to the drawing table to consider changes.

This thread will be updated weekly after the IMS.

If you have a balance suggestion of your own, or simply agree/disagree with changes made to a particular map, this is the place to voice your opinion.

We are thankfull for all of the continued support and we look forward to further great matches in the weeks to come. Also keep in mind an article being posted on GameReplays.org as there will be a showmatch to promote the support from GameReplays.org in the near future (date pending). The matches will be casted live on iCCupTV.

Thank you you to the community, and thank you also to the players who have competed on the maps and provided us with their feedback.

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Balance Contributers: QXC, Antimage

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Maps

Sanshorn Mist:
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QXC

"- The expansions on this map are super far apart which I'm still not sure how I feel about.

- It almost feels like whoever secures it [island expo] first and throws down a bunch of AA has it particularly when protoss can warp in and zerg can potentially nydus. Not sure whether that's good or bad.

- I would almost prefer to remove the destructible rocks from the gold patches. The fact that they are almost adjacent to your opponent's base by air seems like a disadvantage enough although that would require some play."

Antimage

"- Corner towers are to powerfull, they sight the 4th and the gold.

- Mains could be wider

Kinki: the maps im gonna be releaseing are generally going to have a walk distance of cross positioned LT or 2 - 3 seconds longer, im looking to encourage longer more macro orientated games and the necessity of force splitting
Antimage: ya that looks great i really liked having that
Kinki: you think it encouraged that kind of flow?
Antimage: it makes for more entertaining games... well look at my game =P

Sanshorn Mist (before)
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Sanshorn Mist (after)
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Changelog:
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1) Main ramp moved one tile awau from patio ramp to fit buildings
2) Minerals rotated, 1 tile width added to the main
3) Tower shifter towards the interior of the map, still spots 4th
4) Gold shifted slight to the exterior of the map avoiding detection from the corner tower
5) Islands no long can be hit by seige
6) Islands increased slightly in size

Orbital Divide

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Antimage

"- Middle expo is too powerful for Terran. Tanks and turrets make it very hard/costly to take it down. Should be lower ground and more compact, as middle expos should be riskier and high reward, not easy to defend with high reward.

- Middle rocks are bugged, units can slip by.

- Pathing of units at the middle is bad. Again, too powerful, too large with too many vantage points for tanks.

- Good thing about the map: placement and features of each expo. I like how there's only one expo at 12:00, and only one island base. Makes those bases more valuable and somewhat game-changing, and focus will be on several spots on the map in the late game."

Orbital Divide (before)
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Orbital Divide (after)
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Changelog:
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1) Tower moved to low ground path
2) Middle LOS blocker path made wider by half a tile set
3) Rocks do not allow units to bypass without destruction
4) Gold expo made low-ground. Walls surround to prevent tank harass from the sides.
5) Small ramp added to the back of the tower to give access to gold expo
6) Chokes to 3rd widened
7) Islands no longer in range of siege from base drop zone
8) *not numbered* Mains widened around the access ramp to nat to make pathing around builds better

Valhalla

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QXC
" - There isn't a lot of interesting terrain where battles will take place (most of them will occur in the center and then smaller skirmishes will take place at expos)

- Glad to see a map use a mineral only base as this is mostly absent in sc2 maps."

Valhalla (before)
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Valhalla (after)
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Changelog:
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1) Spires added to all intervening chokes to the center giving the middle increased strategical importance and making the nat/3rds more defensible.

Crop Circle

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Crop Circle (before)
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Crop Circle (after)
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Changelog:
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1) Main is now very-high ground
2) Moved main mineral formation
3) Added LOS blocker inside the main
4) Added rocks in the gold expo
5) Lighting changed to "bel'shir sunset"

jamesr12

United States1549 Posts

August 14 2010 15:53 GMT

I really like Valhalla before more, the open middle was nice, the spires make the middle much less open. I am no top player though.

edit: good idea for a thread, some of these maps are so good. Its a shame blizz has a map making contest for custom maps but nothing for melee yet

Channel56k

United States413 Posts

August 14 2010 17:49 GMT

On August 15 2010 00:53 jamesr12 wrote:
I really like Valhalla before more, the open middle was nice, the spires make the middle much less open. I am no top player though.

edit: good idea for a thread, some of these maps are so good. Its a shame blizz has a map making contest for custom maps but nothing for melee yet

Blizzard doesnt really see the importance of quality melee maps as they think they have people for that already and they do just fine. That is good and bad... the good, of course, being that it gives us melee map makers something to shoot for. They have also set pretty high standards and introduced some new styles of map-making which is comendable.

They want your custom maps because they are the closest thing to a new game, and they want that new game ;p

Gecko

United States519 Posts

August 14 2010 19:26 GMT

I really like valhalla and crop circle, They seem more like BW maps than the Chokefests that we get to play on the ladder.

prodiG

Canada2016 Posts

August 14 2010 19:29 GMT

On August 15 2010 02:49 konicki wrote:
Blizzard doesnt really see the importance of quality melee maps as they think they have people for that already and they do just fine. That is good and bad... the good, of course, being that it gives us melee map makers something to shoot for. They have also set pretty high standards and introduced some new styles of map-making which is commendable.

They want your custom maps because they are the closest thing to a new game, and they want that new game ;p

I really hope to see Blizzard shed some light on what their plans are for custom melee maps sometime soon :/

On August 15 2010 00:53 jamesr12 wrote:
I really like Valhalla before more, the open middle was nice, the spires make the middle much less open. I am no top player though.

The middle is virtually still just as open, minus a 2x8 (or 8x2 depending on orientation) section on each side. It just seems a bit more cluttered, which is the idea i was aiming for.

monitor

United States2404 Posts

August 14 2010 23:13 GMT

I think those pieces of high ground prodiG added to Valhalla are unnecessary too. Qxc's complaint was that battles were too ordinary, but I don't think the high ground helps that. Primarily, it just splits up armies making turtling more effective.

Maybe consider adding LoS blockers to somewhere in the middle to make battles more interesting?

prodiG

Canada2016 Posts

August 15 2010 00:38 GMT

On August 15 2010 08:13 monitor wrote:
I think those pieces of high ground prodiG added to Valhalla are unnecessary too. Qxc's complaint was that battles were too ordinary, but I don't think the high ground helps that. Primarily, it just splits up armies making turtling more effective.

Maybe consider adding LoS blockers to somewhere in the middle to make battles more interesting?

They have LOS blockers around them, I should get that linked to a high-res screenshot since you can't really see them

monitor

United States2404 Posts

August 15 2010 00:42 GMT

Oh, I see it now. Would you consider putting the LoS blockers in more of a line? (maybe across half the path? Or you could put them in an "S" shape in the middle.

I really like the new "Bel'Shir Sunset" on Crop Circle!!!

dimfish

United States663 Posts

August 15 2010 17:54 GMT

I am curious about QXC's quote about Sanshorn Mist,
"- The expansions on this map are super far apart which I'm still not sure how I feel about.

Does he mean super far apart as in, my expos are close and his expos are close, but the expos we can more easily control are super far apart?

Or is it more simply that after the natural any of the expansions feels very far?

I think some further insight from QXC or other top players on this would be very helpful for map makers.

great thread, iccup mappers!

Retgery

Canada1229 Posts

August 15 2010 19:12 GMT

#10

I personally loved every single one of these maps but, sadly i have said "Fuck Terran i'm going back to BW." If the terran nerf ever happens i'll probably change to sc2

Superouman

France2195 Posts

August 15 2010 20:36 GMT

#11

is it possible to drop units on the walls surrounding the gold expo?

esla_sol

United States756 Posts

August 15 2010 20:55 GMT

#12

me and a friend are around 750 points in diamond and we played a few games on fighting spirit and match point.

on fighting spirit, the size of the nats and the bridges feel really really small. i think that making the map a bit bigger would be great. another idea would be to extend the water a bit and make the bridges a bit wider.

match point is similar, just feels extremely narrow, especially around the mineral only. liked match point a lot.

Channel56k

United States413 Posts

August 15 2010 21:24 GMT

#13

On August 16 2010 02:54 dimfish wrote:
I am curious about QXC's quote about Sanshorn Mist,
"- The expansions on this map are super far apart which I'm still not sure how I feel about.

Does he mean super far apart as in, my expos are close and his expos are close, but the expos we can more easily control are super far apart?

Or is it more simply that after the natural any of the expansions feels very far?

I think some further insight from QXC or other top players on this would be very helpful for map makers.

great thread, iccup mappers!

Yea, this is a good point. One thing i didnt mention is that qxc thought the map was very large, and in comparison to the ladder maps that are not 4 player, it is.

In BW well versed players had to be everywhere at once, it was one of the things that separated good players from mediocre.

I think we all feel that although SC2 is, in a way, not meant to be played the same as BW. That has made for a couple of interesting considerations in map making, and i personaly think Blizzards choice of ladder maps.

As far as qxc's quote goes, I personally think it is a reaction to the sheer size of the map as your 3rd and 4th are actually relatively close. It is the attack your enemies 3rd and defending yours at the same time that is difficult if you dont have presence "everywhere" on the map.

Now, not to take this into a deep balance discussion (and to take this into a deep balance discussion) that brings up some very specific balance issues. Protoss now with their ability to warp in units wherever there is a pylon undoubtedly makes it slightly easier to have a presence "everywhere" on a map, would you agree?

Terran w/o medivacs is usually considered to be fairly immobile.

From this one could draw the conclusion that bigger maps are imbalanced in the favor of protoss in a PvT. Now, i know this is not the case, but I say this to make the point that SC2 is a game of imbalances where terrain and exterior elements take a big role in its balance, whereas BW was a game of racial balances.

I am possibly releasing a map for next week that is another larger 1v1 map in which the middle is a drastic high ground split. It is indeed easier for a Terran to hold this position. I know this, but the feature stays. The feature stays because a even when a Terran has a foothold on the center, the sheer size of the map creates vulnerability for the Terran more so than a Protoss.

This is only one example.

The high-ground gold in Orbital was unfortunately to strong a position for tanks in particular so it did need to be lowered. The chokes, however small at points (choke points) open up substantially quickly. A terran loves his small chokes and a zerg lives his large chokes. A map must have both.

In response to toss4ever, no, fortunately i remembered to decline pathing on top of the walls.