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I know, it sounds absurd. Or at least it feels that way to me. At age 20, FPS has been a big part of my life for almost 10 years from Quake 3 onto CS 1.6, then CoD2/4. About 6 months ago I discovered the pro SC scene in korea, and have been gobbling up every PL/MSL/OSL matches since. Around this time I heard about the SC2 beta, and I saw it as a fresh start, a way of getting into the competitive RTS scene. During the 2 months I had the beta, I massed about 1500 games total and went from silver to diamond league, before the point system change I was around 1350. Didn't get to even place after that because of Bnet's weirdness.
I've been looking for a way to keep progressing skill-wise while the beta is away and thought BW would be a good way to challenge myself. Naturally I got demolished on ICCup. Even after practicing the 1 rax FE into 9 min push vs Zerg and Siege Expand vs Protoss over and over and over by myself for a few days to smooth it out in custom SP games.There are still leaks in my build that I'm working hard to overcome. There seems to be a lot of game sense to learn in order to allow the few build's I've practiced to be effective. Then I need to have the mechanics to respond properly. I know it's hard to just walk into BW and be successful. At the very least however, I can do my best and will. My biggest weakpoints seem to be the game sense I discussed previously which the amazing Liquipedia and my own analysis help strengthen and just being able to multitask. Since FPS doesn't really demand much multitasking it's something that remains grossly under-developed.
Because of MBS/Automine, SC2 seems to mostly just require decent APM as opposed to both good APM and multitasking. However, having good multitasking habits can't hurt, such as the 'Mental Checklist' Day9 talks about.
My conclusion about the nature of multitasking development is that it seems to arise from being mentally proactive while mass gaming. That is, forcing yourself to keep thinking about everything you need to do in order to reach your current set of goals while playing, allowing variables to happen and learning the responses to them from replays so that you always have a reasonable goal. Please correct or add to this conclusion if possible.
Now a few questions:
Are there goals I can set for myself in BW given my circumstances that will lead to growth that carries over to SC2?
Does anyone have some tips for efficiently approaching the development of my multitasking habits?
Such things can't happen overnight, but I have the resources and focus to put it into practice and attacking it with the benefit of other's experience can only help. Also I know my age is a big factor when it comes to learning quickly, so I don't expect my skill to skyrocket, just steadily improve with specific goals and determination.
Where can I find players that are also looking to improve, or even higher up players that are willing to teach?
Most of the time people on ICCup just tell me how bad I am, or that they're a korean pro and I'm a 'chobo'. This cutthroat atmosphere doesn't seem suited to friendly learning, though I yearn to compete in it.
Are there things I can do outside of playing that can aid in the growth of my skills?
Been watching KawaiiRice's FPVODs on youtube to get a good idea of what high level playing looks like so I know what to shoot for. I've also seen the thread for SC2 players getting into BW, I knew most of what it detailed already.
Lastly, thanks a lot for participating in this noob's journey, even if it's just reading. I'm super duper thankful with cherries on top for any advice!
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just play as much as u did sc2 :O? tho i dont really think it'll help that much. SC2 everyone can be good at xD
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As far as "transferable" skills (that's what you want, right?), I'd recommend working on worker split (unnecessary but still why the hell not) and macro orientation. Unit control and microing isn't going to transfer over to SC2 since micro is extremely different (and not nearly as necessary) over there. There's just so much more you have to do/compensate-for in SC:BW that you just plain don't have to do in SC2 so don't look to be refining too many of the same skills. If you get decent at BW though, you'll see what everyone is talking about when they reopen the beta.
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On June 14 2010 17:27 Diminotoor wrote:
As far as "transferable" skills (that's what you want, right?), I'd recommend working on worker split (unnecessary but still why the hell not) and macro orientation. Unit control and microing isn't going to transfer over to SC2 since micro is extremely different (and not nearly as necessary) over there. There's just so much more you have to do/compensate-for in SC:BW that you just plain don't have to do in SC2 so don't look to be refining too many of the same skills. If you get decent at BW though, you'll see what everyone is talking about when they reopen the beta.
I understand what you mean about it being hard to tailor my learning to transfer to SC2, which is why I came here asking. Also, pretty much all I did to get to diamond league was macro my ass off and make sure I'm using my spell casters well and have good positioning before/during battles. BW is definitely > than SC2.
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United States2917 Posts
the best advice i could give you to get better is to practice a lot
if that doesn't work you should probably just quit and move to a different game.. like pick up stix or hop scotch
good luck!
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On June 14 2010 17:42 G5 wrote:
the best advice i could give you to get better is to practice a lot
if that doesn't work you should probably just quit and move to a different game.. like pick up stix or hop scotch
good luck!
Did I offend you or something? I'm trying to be active mentally about practicing, not just mass game mindlessly.
EDIT: Sorry about getting huffy, your advice is legit, the pick up stix/hopscotch part just rubbed me the wrong way.
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The fastest way to improve is by playing against similar or a bit better skill level players; also focus on one thing to improve at a time, for example producing workers all game long from all your bases, producing units continuously, scouting, attacking in more than one part at once, controlling more than 4 groups of units properly, etc. No matter how many games you lose, just focus on that aspect that you feel needs improvement, untill you can do it right, than move on to another. At some point in time, when you get them right, you`ll be able to do all of these important aspects in the same game, thus you`ll be able to play as it`s supposed to. Also, don`t play when you`re tired and don`t neglect sleeping. BW is one of the hardest games and it requires a lot of brain power. If you also do some sport, like swimming, running, tennis or working out, that would further help.
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10387 Posts
On June 14 2010 18:36 Misanthrope wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 17:42 G5 wrote:
the best advice i could give you to get better is to practice a lot
if that doesn't work you should probably just quit and move to a different game.. like pick up stix or hop scotch
good luck! Did I offend you or something? I'm trying to be active mentally about practicing, not just mass game mindlessly.
He's not telling you to mass game "mindlessly" he's telling you if you really want to get better you better buckle down and play a lot of games. It's either you mass games (which you could easily be "mentally active" when doing that and do quick reviews of the reps afterwards) to improve a lot in a short period of time, or you play a couple games a day over a long, extended period of time and improve a lot that way.
Massing games is more effective for getting things like macroing properly become muscle memory to the point where you can focus your thinking on other things and raising your APM. Playing for a long time of course increases your understanding and general game sense.
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The replies oozes of SC2 hate. Give the guy a chance.
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You put nice effort into this thread so I'm going to respond.
First off I like that you're sticking to 1 build order vs any given race. Don't make it anymore complicated than that. Learn 1 standard BO and adapt from there. The variations will come naturally to you as you play more and become more experienced.
About skills that transfer over to SC2: I'd like to point out HOTKEY USAGE. In BW you need to be twice as proactive in using hotkeys as you are in SC2. Your left hand needs to be just as quick as your right.
The mental checklist is so much more prominent in BW, as every 20seconds you need to make a new SCV and send it to mine. Every X seconds you need to cycle through your hotkeys or return to your base to produce units. There are tons of other stuff, like being able to harass while still producing. Being able to defend harass while still producing.
In BW keeping your minerals low is actually a challenge, as opposed to SC2. I'd say just playing BW will improve your SC2 game, don't need to focus about anything specific.
For a player in your situation, the easy way is learning a couple of cheese strats/rushes and picking up some easy wins here and there. But if you actually want to learn something and improve your multitasking, I'd suggest you stick to your macro build orders and just WORK on your mental checklist until you don't have to remind yourself to build scvs or return to your production facilities anymore.
Learning BW takes time. Covering the basics alone will keep you occupied for at least 1 year. There's no reaching diamond in 2 months in this game 
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On June 14 2010 20:34 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 18:36 Misanthrope wrote:On June 14 2010 17:42 G5 wrote:
the best advice i could give you to get better is to practice a lot
if that doesn't work you should probably just quit and move to a different game.. like pick up stix or hop scotch
good luck! Did I offend you or something? I'm trying to be active mentally about practicing, not just mass game mindlessly. He's not telling you to mass game "mindlessly" he's telling you if you really want to get better you better buckle down and play a lot of games. It's either you mass games (which you could easily be "mentally active" when doing that and do quick reviews of the reps afterwards) to improve a lot in a short period of time, or you play a couple games a day over a long, extended period of time and improve a lot that way. Massing games is more effective for getting things like macroing properly become muscle memory to the point where you can focus your thinking on other things and raising your APM. Playing for a long time of course increases your understanding and general game sense.
My bad, thanks for clarifying, I edited my original post.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2010 20:40 LaLuSh wrote:You put nice effort into this thread so I'm going to respond. First off I like that you're sticking to 1 build order vs any given race. Don't make it anymore complicated than that. Learn 1 standard BO and adapt from there. The variations will come naturally to you as you play more and become more experienced. About skills that transfer over to SC2: I'd like to point out HOTKEY USAGE. In BW you need to be twice as proactive in using hotkeys as you are in SC2. Your left hand needs to be just as quick as your right. The mental checklist is so much more prominent in BW, as every 20seconds you need to make a new SCV and send it to mine. Every X seconds you need to cycle through your hotkeys or return to your base to produce units. There are tons of other stuff, like being able to harass while still producing. Being able to defend harass while still producing. In BW keeping your minerals low is actually a challenge, as opposed to SC2. I'd say just playing BW will improve your SC2 game, don't need to focus about anything specific. For a player in your situation, the easy way is learning a couple of cheese strats/rushes and picking up some easy wins here and there. But if you actually want to learn something and improve your multitasking, I'd suggest you stick to your macro build orders and just WORK on your mental checklist until you don't have to remind yourself to build scvs or return to your production facilities anymore. Learning BW takes time. Covering the basics alone will keep you occupied for at least 1 year. There's no reaching diamond in 2 months in this game
I agree very much so about keeping your money low in SC1. It's easy in the very beginning, but seems to get exponentially more difficult as the game progresses. I find even with 100% attention on my macro it just isn't enough. Thats a big reason why I came asking for multitasking advice. Your comment about muscle memory made me realize just how hard you have to work to overcome UI limitations, and just how special BW really is.
Thanks LaLuSh! Your reply was exactly what I was looking for.
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You cannot really teach 'game sense.' That comes naturally with experience and hard work. BW has a pretty steep learning curve and skill ceiling when you compare it to SC2. Very few players have the raw talent to excel at BW right away. The key is patience and learning from your mistakes as well as processing every scenario.
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On June 14 2010 22:11 StarStruck wrote:
You cannot really teach 'game sense.' That comes naturally with experience and hard work. BW has a pretty steep learning curve and skill ceiling when you compare it to SC2. Very few players have the raw talent to excel at BW right away. The key is patience and learning from your mistakes as well as processing every scenario.
I got into the habit of being hyper critical of my replays when I was playing SC2, and have been doing so thusfar in BW. My questions were more about building good habits in my mechanics, but I appreciate your words nonetheless. ^_^
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Pretty much what G5 said, mass games, look at the replays and see where to improve, etc. Practice often with a good mindset, don't be like "FFS, i'm not playing for like evar now that ive lost 4 games in a row, i want a good win lose ration because win lose is e-peen size" Check how you lost and how to improve, no matter how many games you lost, don't let it kill you, keep thinking you are the best player in the world ^_^
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Get bwchart, check your latest replay, check what is your apm in comparison to your enemy.
There are 4 options:
1 you win your apm > enemy apm
2 you win your apm < enemy apm
3 you lost your apm > enemy apm
4 you lost your apm < enemy apm
kk
I only wanna talk about when you loose. K because if you did option 3, means you did something fundamentaly wrong, means this is a game where you can proberbly learn a lot from.
If you did option 4, means you were "supposed" to loose anyway. Sometimes when you loose a lot, you get in a very bad mood. But if you check the apms and see that you were supposed to loose anyway, that can be a good way to get back into the right mood again. Being in bad mood can destroy your game and will delay how fast you are learning.
You should come to iccup trainning channel/ (or the other channel i dont remember right now) if you find yourself to be in a position where you want advice. People there in general are firendly and at
D-/D/D+.
edit:
Btw just because ones apm is 10 apm higher than someone else doesnt mean its higher. Its like if the difference is 50 apm or something, then you can say its higher, so take the above vaguely and not strictly.
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Hmm i like where you are going- but there is no quick way to learn starcraft. like G5 said- you need practice, practice and more practice. By playing games, you are learning about relative timings, and game play. Also- during these mass games muscle memory will develop where macro cycles, and hot keys will becomes muscle memory. Once this 'second nature' sets in SC will become easier and easier.
But really- you just need to play more games, and look at strategically what you are doing wrong. Mechanics will come with muscle memory, but more importantly time! So many new players think that APM is what is holding them back- when in reality it's not APM at all, its lack of strategic insight
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1 strategy, 1 map, endless hours practice.
Simple tips:Don't queue, never stop making workers, never miss a supply.
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EPT
