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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
Thanks to krndandaman for the ideas on concepts transferable to SC2. Thanks to exeexe for the unique insight into the learning process, this should help a lot! Special thanks to TeamLiquid and the community for allowing this thread to exist, there is no better place on the internet to learn the ways of ownage! | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Spyfire242
United States715 Posts
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Spyfire242
United States715 Posts
On June 14 2010 23:16 krndandaman wrote: I don't think the mentality of "oh I'm supposed to lose since i'm lower apm" should be taken, even if its to encourage yourself. APM really does not define a player Higher EAPM is always better, spam is supposed to just keep you busy constantly, there is never a time in game when you should not be doing something.  | ||
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
On June 14 2010 23:16 krndandaman wrote: I don't think the mentality of "oh I'm supposed to lose since i'm lower apm" should be taken, even if its to encourage yourself. APM really does not define a player I see your point about how the correlation works, but I review every replay whether I win or lose, and I'm always hyper critical of both myself and my opponent concerning micro/macromanagement as well as strategically and tactically. However, he makes good points about where the find the clues most pertinent to my evolution as a player. | ||
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decemvre
Romania639 Posts
i have played sc1 for 8 years, then stopped for 2 and played 1800 games of sc2 got to 2000 platinum and then tried to play some BW just for fun... needless to say i couldn't do it. BW is simply to difficult and though i have the APM there's no point in trying to get good at SC1 just for 3~4 weeks. If you want to keep ur skill during the beta downtime forget what all these noobs are saying .Just watch as many replays as you can and test your builds. see how fast you can make your builds up to 50 or 60 population. Playing BW will not help. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 14 2010 23:36 decemvrie wrote: Playing BW will not help. That is, unless you enjoy playing it. I fundamentally disagree saying that playing BW will not help. Sure, the mechanics are very different, but learning how to enact a strategy in a different environment can be invaluable to improving at SC2. The way you have to plan out your game in BW - creating goals and accomplishing them in the most efficient way, is exactly what you do in SC2. OP - Generally, if you ask someone in-game what you could have done different, chances are you won't get very good results. I'd recommend the iccup training program and starcraft training community (you don't necessarily have to join, just hang out in the channels). It's very clear in these places that you're practicing. About half the time you can get observers to watch and constructively criticize your play. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Misanthrope
United States924 Posts
On June 14 2010 23:46 Servius_Fulvius wrote: That is, unless you enjoy playing it. I fundamentally disagree saying that playing BW will not help. Sure, the mechanics are very different, but learning how to enact a strategy in a different environment can be invaluable to improving at SC2. The way you have to plan out your game in BW - creating goals and accomplishing them in the most efficient way, is exactly what you do in SC2. OP - Generally, if you ask someone in-game what you could have done different, chances are you won't get very good results. I'd recommend the iccup training program and starcraft training community (you don't necessarily have to join, just hang out in the channels). It's very clear in these places that you're practicing. About half the time you can get observers to watch and constructively criticize your play. Thanks a lot for pointing me in the right direction, I didn't know they existed and should be instrumental in my continued growth =D | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
At least for me personally, there was little "strategy" in sc1 as an RTS, because in TvP it was all "omg I got to make tanks and siege them and lay mines and fight off this reaver and this DT and lay more mines and does he have an expansion I should get an expansion!". In TvZ it was all "ok I have this buildorder that goes all the way to freaking science facility and I have to run around like a maniac to defend against muta while building marines and now there's lurkers and I have to defend those and push out wait is that dark swarm oh crap". Well you get the point^^ The things you can learn from SC1 are "keep your money low, move your hands as fast as you can, and scout". Those things have been useful to me in SC2, and I think if you gain some level of comfort in just building a ton of crap in sc1 you'll feel very comfortable in sc2. Once your brain doesn't need to think about all those things you can start to actually play the strategic part of the game. In SC2 this happens at a much lower skill than in SC1 and as a consequence it feels alot more important to "think" about your game, which you won't learn at D/D+ in sc1. As for suggestions: I went back to sc1 when the beta went down too, but I'm trying to play it more with the SC2 mindset. Forget build orders (especially ones like the 9 minute push that tell you what to do for 9 minutes of the game). In fact, I recommend you forget playing terran. Building units, sieging tanks, building a base and laying mines, all those things are horribly difficult to do well in sc1, and much much simpler or non-existant in sc2. You won't need those skills for sc2. Chose an easier race that has early map control. That way you can concentrate on getting scouting information/expanding/making units without spending 80% of your time frantically trying to build a base and defend it from dragoons or mutalisks. EDIT - The reason I'd say to forget about build orders isn't because they're bad (in fact, they're very good!) but because you'll follow them blindly without understanding why you build turrets and when. Especially the 1rax FE into 9 min push. It takes alot of practice to not die to a ling all-in or to 2hatch lurker with that build, because it's designed to be as economic as possible while building juuuust the minimum amount of units to hold stuff off. Try 2 rax 3 rax 4 rax who cares, just try things and judge for yourself what's most effective. That way you find your own buildorder, and it's what you'll be doing in sc2. You'll never learn gamesense until you lose to every possible strat, with every possible strat IMO. | ||
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Caos2
United States1728 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On June 15 2010 00:07 Misrah wrote: so many posters here are so wrong... APM means nothing, it just shows your effort. Ok, so effort, being correlated with APM according to you, means nothing as well then! Regardless of APM discussions, there's a certain number of actions per minute that you need to do in broodwar in order to be successful at D level. If you can't pull them off you lose. | ||
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slowmanrunning
Canada285 Posts
learn to macro first. micro is far more demanding (time spent doing it) for less rewarding oh wait your terran, you HAVE to micro. Just try to only control your army to the extent of 1a2a3a, and hitting stim or seige mode 1 time. This is guessing that you're like <120 apm, because below that you should avoid micro except when painfully obvious you need to do something. | ||
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slowmanrunning
Canada285 Posts
On June 14 2010 23:16 krndandaman wrote: I don't think the mentality of "oh I'm supposed to lose since i'm lower apm" should be taken, even if its to encourage yourself. APM really does not define a player As mentioned in his post if it's like 50 higher, you really should lose. Unless their spamming rediculously or something. | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
its a tough atmosphere, but there are still a few ppl here and there still playing. in my opinion, most of the doucebags on ICCUp have been not korean players, but white / english speaking dipshits who can't keep their comments to themselves. you join a D game and they insult you on how bad you are? lol. its pretty pathetic. but for game sense... its just practice. you really need to use your scouting information and determine what they are likely going toward. knowing the timing of what hsould be happening, or counting workers/pylons to determine information.. just practice yo. i wish you luck, if you want to play on iccup with me, my ID is kyungrim | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
As mentioned in his post if it's like 50 higher, you really should lose. Unless their spamming rediculously or something. Apm really has nothing to do, i beat countless of players with 200+ apm. I remember one replay of fantasy with about 150ish apm too. Savior also played with often less than 200 | ||
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QuakerOats
United States1024 Posts
On June 15 2010 00:25 slowmanrunning wrote: As mentioned in his post if it's like 50 higher, you really should lose. Unless their spamming rediculously or something. Jaedong has much higher APM than Stork and yet Stork is the only Protoss he's lost to in the past year. APM really doesn't mean much, as long as it's not 100 vs 50 or something. Once it's past a certain threshold (though it's impossible to really say what that is, and it's race dependent) there's not much of a difference. Obviously for an individual he'd be better with higher APM 99% of the time, but you can't compare two different people based on APM alone. | ||
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Piste
6179 Posts
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